"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Jack Ry » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 04:42:57


As to boat size stick with the industry standards. BTW I have herd of people
sailing from Hawaii to California in catalina capri 22. I guess it just
comes down to how crazy you are.

these are just a few
ABYC Certifide, C E certifide, NMMA certifide
      International Marine Certification
      Institute Recreational Craft
      Directive 94/35/CE
      Boat design categories as defined by Institute Recreational Craft:

      Design Category Wind Force
      Beaufort Scale (knots) Significant Wave Height
      in meters (feet)
      A - "Ocean" exceeding 8 (over 40 kts.) exceeding 4 (over 13 ft.)
      B - "Offshore" up to and including 8 (34-40 kts.) up to and including
4 (13 ft.)
      C - "Inshore" up to and including 6 (22-27 kts.) up to and including 2
(6.5 ft.)
      D - "Sheltered waters" up to and including 4 (11-16 kts.) up to and
including 0.5 (1.5 ft.)

      A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed
wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 meters and
above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B. OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and
including wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights up to,
and including, 4 meters may be experienced.
C. INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries,
lakes, rivers and canals where conditions up to, and including wind force 6
(Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights up to, and including 2 meters
may be experienced.

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers and canals
where conditions up to, and including wind force 4 (Beaufort scale) and
significant wave heights up to, and including 0.5 meters may be experienced

ABYC Certification
American Boat & Yacht Council

The ABYC is a non-profit member supported organization which develops and
publishes voluntary standards and recommended practices for boat and
equipment design, construction, service, and repair.
A.B.Y.C. Standards and Recommended Practices for Small Craft

  a. Cover all aspects of boat construction related to safety and function
  b. Emphasis on mechanical and electrical systems
  c. A.B.Y.C. writes standards based on a consensus of government, industry
and private sectors
  d. Standards compliance is voluntary and has no enforcement powers or
mechanism
  N.M.M.A. Yacht Certification Program
  National Marine Manufacturers Association

  NMMA maintains an active Certification Program that assures consumers that
boats, trailers, and lubricants meet mandatory and voluntary safety and
engineering standards

    a. Voluntary compliance program
    b. Compliance of volunteer participants is monitored by N.M.M.A. staff
through unannounced visits to plants and boat inspections
    c. Program is for boats over 26 feet
    d. Certification uses A.B.Y.C. standards and the Code of Federal
Regulations

Quote:

> What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> San Diego to Honolulu?

> There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Greg » Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:08:18

Try reading the book, "The White Hurricane".  It is about a huge storm on
the Great Lakes in 1913.  I am about half way through it, and am enjoying
it.
Greg Luckett
Lake Michigan Sailor



Quote:
> Lake Superior is a huge body of water, and not to be taken for granted
under
> any circumstances. But is it fair or reasonable to compare it to the open
> Pacific? I've never boated on either, but from what I've read, the Pacific
> just has so much longer open fetches... and so much further to go,
> sometimes, to reach port.

>    ====

>    Charles T. Low

>    www.boatdocking.com
>    www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26

>     ====



> > What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> > out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> > San Diego to Honolulu?

> > There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> > mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Jim Hollenba » Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:14:23

: The story I saw on the History Channel "Great Ships" (or one of those
: series) is that best guess from the skipper of the boat that was
: following the Fitz was, they had both decided to take shelter in
: Whitefish Bay, but for reasons I've forgotten (it's been over a year
: since I saw it) the Fitz changed her mind--or they both did. When she
: turned back out, she cut Whitefish Point a little fine and grounded
: without being aware of it, which would not be hard to believe in those
: seas, putting enough of a hole in her bottom to start slowly taking on
: water. That made her ride increasingly lower, but it was happening so
: slowly and seas were so rough they didn't know it. Either the water
: sloshing around in her hull was shifting her weight, or the water was
: filling up a forward hold--again, it's been long enough I can't
: remember. Whichever, when all the factors in play combined to reach
: "critical mass," the Fitz pitch-poled to the bottom when she came off
: the top of a wave. At least that's the theory...and the path she
: followed as reported by the skipper of the ship following her supports it.

: The History Channel sells videos of it...and they re-run all those
: series fairly regularly. That one was made after they found the wreck
: and is very well done...worth watching.

There was another story done on the Fitzgerald. The "shallow" spot mentioned
was really a transcription error from the Canadian chart that was copied
for the US chart the US freighters used. Also some dives were made and
a number of the cargo hatch cover latches were stretched out of shape
while others were not. Given that a large pile of tachonite was some
distance from the EF, it was surmize that the EF capsized, i.e., rolled
over, and dumped the load. If it did roll then the full weight of the
cargo would be on the hatches. If only a few held the hatches they probably
would be stretched and the ones not fashened would not stretched. The
conclusion on this segment was that the bosun's did not properly secure
the cargo hatches and the waves breaking over the deck caused flooding
in the holds which lead to the capsize.


: > Is that for sure what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald? I've heard that
: > there's a shallow spot out in the middle of L. Superior and that possilby
: > the EF hit it because of the big waves, but I hadn't heard if confirmed. And
: > I didn't know about it trying to make port - I am aware of the legion of
: > storied of skippers who survived terrible weather by heading back out to
: > sea. I've also heard of small boats surviving when large ones didn't,
: > because they just bobbed up and down (making everyone sick, but that's only
: > temporary) when the large ones would break from bridging waves (or
: > something).
: >
: >    ====
: >
: >    Charles T. Low

: >    www.boatdocking.com
: >    www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26
: >
: >     ====
: >
: >


: >
: >>...
: >>Problem sometimes is being able to get into the port.  If the Edmund
: >
: > Fitzgerald
: >
: >>hadn't been trying to get in, it wouldn't have hit that mound and broke.
: >
: >
: >

--
Jim Hollenback

my opinion.

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by sailtram » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 03:30:02

Must have a pool table on board.

Quote:

> What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> San Diego to Honolulu?

> There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Jim Donohu » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:29:10

Good concept...And let us require the balls track straight 98% of the time.
Jim

Quote:
> Must have a pool table on board.


> > What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> > out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> > San Diego to Honolulu?

> > There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> > mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Lew Hodget » Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:31:00

Quote:
 "KW" writes:
> What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> San Diego to Honolulu?

> There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

Personally, I don't board power boats less than 400 ft long, even for a
harbor tour.

As far as sail craft are concerned, a Japanese sailor sailed across the
Pacific to the left coast a few years ago in something around 10 ft.

Would I do it?

No, but then I like some of life's creature comforts on my boat that just
wouldn't fit on a 10 ft boat.

Maybe that explains why I'm building what I am.

There are some very good "Blue Water" sail boats in the 25'-30' area.

The Pardeys started with a 24', then moved up to a 30' after going around
the world a time or two.

BTW, L Superior can be a very *** place.

It would not be smart to take a toy boat on that lake where the water
temperature is about 46F at a 36" depth, during the hottest part of summer,
and harbors of refuge are few and far between.

Go over board, you might have 10 minutes before you are stone cold dead.

HTH

--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://SportToday.org/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Larry Demer » Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:08:26

I've got 15,000miles on Superior, over the past 13 years on our Cape Dory 30,
and have crossed her over 10 times I believe. You have to watch the weather,
leaving on the tail end of a passing low. Usually there are two to three days of
high pressure vs. each low pressure passage (during summer, not spring or fall).

Water temps are darn cold..38deg. surface temps up til July..rarely higher than
45 deg in the middle of the lake. We bring our winter jackets along for the
crossings.

  The reward for all this cold water is some of the best sailing on the planet.
I sail out of the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore. An archipelago of 21
uninhabited islands, scattered over an 800 sq. mile area.  The area that we
cross the lake to is a very remote section of Canada, where islands are 5 - 10
miles apart, and it is rare to see another boater. You share the area with
Caribou, wolf, eagles, conifer forests and bold rock shorelines. Magnetic
anomalies give the compass jewels a work out, and your navigating skills in fog
a chance to be proven or improved.

  We have sailed in 55 kts. of wind and 12-15 fters, and have seen 20 fters on
the lake while anchored securely. But normally, we have 10-20 or 15-25 kt
winds, and 3-5 fters in the islands. Perfect sailing winds and weather -usually.
When it gets stinky, it can get really stinky. So anchorage's are always
determined by the forecast and prevailing winds, with an eye to a complete 180
deg. shift during the night (it can happen occasionally). Once understood
though, it is not a problem to get out every single weekend, regardless of
weather. WE average 33 weekends a year on the boat. Perhaps 4 of those are while
we are on the cradle, in the spring.

  Come on up and give Superior a try if you can.

    I have a web site set up with slides of sailing in the area.  If you are
interested, write and I'll give you the url.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers

Quote:

>  "KW" writes:

> > What do people figure to be the minimum safe size for a boat to use way
> > out of sight of land, say, the middle of Lake Superior or on a run from
> > San Diego to Honolulu?

> > There has to be some point between a Zodiac and a destroyer where the
> > mindset changes from "you're crazy!" to "can I go too?"

> Personally, I don't board power boats less than 400 ft long, even for a
> harbor tour.

> As far as sail craft are concerned, a Japanese sailor sailed across the
> Pacific to the left coast a few years ago in something around 10 ft.

> Would I do it?

> No, but then I like some of life's creature comforts on my boat that just
> wouldn't fit on a 10 ft boat.

> Maybe that explains why I'm building what I am.

> There are some very good "Blue Water" sail boats in the 25'-30' area.

> The Pardeys started with a 24', then moved up to a 30' after going around
> the world a time or two.

> BTW, L Superior can be a very *** place.

> It would not be smart to take a toy boat on that lake where the water
> temperature is about 46F at a 36" depth, during the hottest part of summer,
> and harbors of refuge are few and far between.

> Go over board, you might have 10 minutes before you are stone cold dead.

> HTH

> --
> Lew

> S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
> Visit: <http://SportToday.org/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by James Johnso » Tue, 25 Feb 2003 01:41:42

Quote:

>The story I saw on the History Channel "Great Ships" (or one of those
>series) is that best guess from the skipper of the boat that was
>following the Fitz was, they had both decided to take shelter in
>Whitefish Bay, but for reasons I've forgotten (it's been over a year
>since I saw it) the Fitz changed her mind--or they both did. When she
>turned back out, she cut Whitefish Point a little fine and grounded
>without being aware of it, which would not be hard to believe in those
>seas, putting enough of a hole in her bottom to start slowly taking on
>water. That made her ride increasingly lower, but it was happening so
>slowly and seas were so rough they didn't know it. Either the water
>sloshing around in her hull was shifting her weight, or the water was
>filling up a forward hold--again, it's been long enough I can't
>remember. Whichever, when all the factors in play combined to reach
>"critical mass," the Fitz pitch-poled to the bottom when she came off
>the top of a wave. At least that's the theory...and the path she
>followed as reported by the skipper of the ship following her supports it.

Actually what many suspect what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald is called
"submarining" - not pitch poling.  

In pitch poling the boat is traveling too fast, digs her bow in and literally
somersault stern over bow.  In submarining the bow buries in a wave and the
weight of water (because of insufficient reserve buoyancy) forces the bow
deeper, which blows out ports, bridge windows, hatches, causing her to take on
more water, which forces her deeper.  

When the water taken on in this event is greater than the reserve buoyancy the
ship never recovers and sink.  Also the engines are adding to this by continuing
to drive the ship in deeper until water coming down the stack kills them, but by
then it is too late.

From witnesses who have seen other ships lost this way it looks just like a
submarine diving, the ship smoothly sinks into the water bow first while
underway.

James Johnson

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>The History Channel sells videos of it...and they re-run all those
>series fairly regularly. That one was made after they found the wreck
>and is very well done...worth watching.

>Peggie


>> Is that for sure what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald? I've heard that
>> there's a shallow spot out in the middle of L. Superior and that possilby
>> the EF hit it because of the big waves, but I hadn't heard if confirmed. And
>> I didn't know about it trying to make port - I am aware of the legion of
>> storied of skippers who survived terrible weather by heading back out to
>> sea. I've also heard of small boats surviving when large ones didn't,
>> because they just bobbed up and down (making everyone sick, but that's only
>> temporary) when the large ones would break from bridging waves (or
>> something).

>>    ====

>>    Charles T. Low

>>    www.boatdocking.com
>>    www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26

>>     ====



>>>...
>>>Problem sometimes is being able to get into the port.  If the Edmund

>> Fitzgerald

>>>hadn't been trying to get in, it wouldn't have hit that mound and broke.

James Johnson
remove the dot from after sail in email address to reply
 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by matt coli » Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:23:32

James, Peggy and Charles,

The actual cause of the Edmund Fitzgerald and crew has never truely been
determined.  The reason that the owners (Ogelbay Norton) keep pointing
at hitting a reef near one (Caribou I think, but I have tried to forget
most about this) of the eastern Superior islands is very simple.  It
would make the loss the result of mishandling by the master and
therefore not the comapnies responsability.  If you knew Ernie McSorley,
this would not occur in your thinking.

They were headed into Whitefish Bay for cover.  They never made it.
Several shipps were in there waiting for things to calm down, but went
out into the storm anyway to search for survivors (William Rush was one,
but she is now called something Oglebay).

That Ernie reported he was taking on some water is both well known and
not a surprise.  He also told Jesse Cooper (master of Arther Anderson)
the it was reported to him the the pumpes were holding it.  You will
have to trust me on this one, but if you are engine crew and you are
watching this stuff, you know how your ship pumps out and if it didn't
look good you would be telling everyone - NOW.

I was told by a classmate that there is a good site about Fitz, he was
the last inspector from OMI Superior to go over her.
I lost some friends that day; I haven't been able to watch the specials.
  Maybe sometime.

Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor

Quote:


>>The story I saw on the History Channel "Great Ships" (or one of those
>>series) is that best guess from the skipper of the boat that was
>>following the Fitz was, they had both decided to take shelter in
>>Whitefish Bay, but for reasons I've forgotten (it's been over a year
>>since I saw it) the Fitz changed her mind--or they both did. When she
>>turned back out, she cut Whitefish Point a little fine and grounded
>>without being aware of it, which would not be hard to believe in those
>>seas, putting enough of a hole in her bottom to start slowly taking on
>>water. That made her ride increasingly lower, but it was happening so
>>slowly and seas were so rough they didn't know it. Either the water
>>sloshing around in her hull was shifting her weight, or the water was
>>filling up a forward hold--again, it's been long enough I can't
>>remember. Whichever, when all the factors in play combined to reach
>>"critical mass," the Fitz pitch-poled to the bottom when she came off
>>the top of a wave. At least that's the theory...and the path she
>>followed as reported by the skipper of the ship following her supports it.

> Actually what many suspect what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald is called
> "submarining" - not pitch poling.  

> In pitch poling the boat is traveling too fast, digs her bow in and literally
> somersault stern over bow.  In submarining the bow buries in a wave and the
> weight of water (because of insufficient reserve buoyancy) forces the bow
> deeper, which blows out ports, bridge windows, hatches, causing her to take on
> more water, which forces her deeper.  

> When the water taken on in this event is greater than the reserve buoyancy the
> ship never recovers and sink.  Also the engines are adding to this by continuing
> to drive the ship in deeper until water coming down the stack kills them, but by
> then it is too late.

> From witnesses who have seen other ships lost this way it looks just like a
> submarine diving, the ship smoothly sinks into the water bow first while
> underway.

> James Johnson

>>The History Channel sells videos of it...and they re-run all those
>>series fairly regularly. That one was made after they found the wreck
>>and is very well done...worth watching.

>>Peggie


>>>Is that for sure what happened to the Edmund Fitzgerald? I've heard that
>>>there's a shallow spot out in the middle of L. Superior and that possilby
>>>the EF hit it because of the big waves, but I hadn't heard if confirmed. And
>>>I didn't know about it trying to make port - I am aware of the legion of
>>>storied of skippers who survived terrible weather by heading back out to
>>>sea. I've also heard of small boats surviving when large ones didn't,
>>>because they just bobbed up and down (making everyone sick, but that's only
>>>temporary) when the large ones would break from bridging waves (or
>>>something).

>>>   ====

>>>   Charles T. Low

>>>   www.boatdocking.com
>>>   www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26

>>>    ====



>>>>...
>>>>Problem sometimes is being able to get into the port.  If the Edmund

>>>Fitzgerald

>>>>hadn't been trying to get in, it wouldn't have hit that mound and broke.

> James Johnson
> remove the dot from after sail in email address to reply

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Lew Hodget » Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:18:08

Quote:
"matt colie" writes:

<snip onfo on the Fitz>

Quote:
>You will
> have to trust me on this one, but if you are engine crew and you are
> watching this stuff, you know how your ship pumps out and if it didn't
> look good you would be telling everyone - NOW.
> Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1
> Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor

Trust me, I believe you.

Last time I checked, there is still a photo and a life ring from the Fitz
*** on the wall of the Harbor Inn in Cleveland.

BTW, that S2 is a nice boat.

Do you happen to live along the western side of L Huron?

Was told that almost every town, Harrisville, Rogers City, etc, along the
Michigan side had at least one resident who was lost on the Fitz.

A former L Erie sailor.

--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://SportToday.org/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

 
 
 

"Oceangoing"/Great Lakes minimum powerboat size?

Post by Greg » Thu, 27 Feb 2003 06:38:11

I think that would make too large a crew.  Maybe "many" rather than "almost
every", and I wonder about that?  I guess we should look up the homes of the
crew.  Does 26 sounds like the right number of people?

I was at sea on a Navy frigate when the Fitz went down.  At the time, it
sounded just like another one of many to me, another sad loss of lives.  I
am still saddened by it.  I grew up on Galveston Bay where we lost friends
and neighbors to the sea every year.  Lots of shrimpers, fishing boats, crew
boats, and ships over the years.  It was something we grew up with and had
to learn to deal with it.  It is never easy.

I have been reading about the 1913 storm.  It is a book, The White
Hurricane".  It makes one respect the "Lakes" more.  I have sailed on most
of the world's oceans, but when I started sailing on Lake Michigan, I was
shocked.  It is amazing to me how fast the state of the water and waves
change.  These lakes are truly inland seas.

Greg Luckett
St. Joseph, MI


Quote:

> "matt colie" writes:

> <snip onfo on the Fitz>

> >You will
> > have to trust me on this one, but if you are engine crew and you are
> > watching this stuff, you know how your ship pumps out and if it didn't
> > look good you would be telling everyone - NOW.

> > Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide'e" S2-7.9 #1
> > Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor

> Trust me, I believe you.

> Last time I checked, there is still a photo and a life ring from the Fitz
>*** on the wall of the Harbor Inn in Cleveland.

> BTW, that S2 is a nice boat.

> Do you happen to live along the western side of L Huron?

> Was told that almost every town, Harrisville, Rogers City, etc, along the
> Michigan side had at least one resident who was lost on the Fitz.

> A former L Erie sailor.

> --
> Lew

> S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
> Visit: <http://SportToday.org/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://SportToday.org/ - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----