Question for the Group....

Question for the Group....

Post by Jim Robert » Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:14:46


  Had a play this weekend at a local A.S.A. Sanctioned "B" division tourney
that I have a question about.

  Batter hits the ball to the pitcher, small, chopped "blooper" hit.  At the
time of the hit the First base breaks, not for the bag but about 10 feet up
the line, toward the plate.  Stops and takes the throw to tag my runner out.
Is this not interference??  Should the baseman not have went to her bag??
Just seems like this kind of play would be inviting injuries.

  Now, we were winning, and went on to win, so I am not just griping to make
excuses.  There was plenty to gripe about in this, and the 2 other games we
had on that field.  For instance, opposing catcher throws down to 1st to cut
down baserunner with too big of a lead, throw goes over 1st bases head, my
runner goes on to second.  Field blue tells me to bring her back to 1st, she
can't steal on the throw.  I tell him it is a passed ball, she can go one
base.  Home plate ump has to walk out to center of infield to tell him she
gets the base.  We won't even get into some of the events at the plate,
GEEEZZZ!!

  Thanks in advance for your reply,
  Jim C Roberts

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Raiders Coac » Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:48:04

This rings of ASA 10U with a field blue not familiar with 10U rules. As far
as  the play to 1st... certainly nothing illegal. Seems more likely 2nd blew
the cover on the short ball, or the pitcher simply blew the throw....
Certainly sounds like 10B's! What part of the country are you in?

Rick


Quote:
>   Had a play this weekend at a local A.S.A. Sanctioned "B" division
tourney
> that I have a question about.

>   Batter hits the ball to the pitcher, small, chopped "blooper" hit.  At
the
> time of the hit the First base breaks, not for the bag but about 10 feet
up
> the line, toward the plate.  Stops and takes the throw to tag my runner
out.
> Is this not interference??  Should the baseman not have went to her bag??
> Just seems like this kind of play would be inviting injuries.

>   Now, we were winning, and went on to win, so I am not just griping to
make
> excuses.  There was plenty to gripe about in this, and the 2 other games
we
> had on that field.  For instance, opposing catcher throws down to 1st to
cut
> down baserunner with too big of a lead, throw goes over 1st bases head, my
> runner goes on to second.  Field blue tells me to bring her back to 1st,
she
> can't steal on the throw.  I tell him it is a passed ball, she can go one
> base.  Home plate ump has to walk out to center of infield to tell him she
> gets the base.  We won't even get into some of the events at the plate,
> GEEEZZZ!!

>   Thanks in advance for your reply,
>   Jim C Roberts


 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Nett » Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:41:30

Now granted I'm a new ump but I've played softball since I'm 10 and my
daughter has been playing for 6 years.  But I don't remember reading where
the first baseman can't go towards the plate to tag a runner out.  I
definitely don't think it is interference.  She has a right to try to get
your runner out just like your runner has a right to try to get her out.
Now if she doesn't have the ball and squares herself in the baseline and
your runner has to either charge her or go around her then that is
interference.

As for the other call, that ump is ignorant.  Even in the little 8 and
unders they give you one base on an overthrow.  DUH!  My daughter is in 10
and unders now and they can get a homerun on an overthrow if they can make
it home before the ball does.  That ump needs to look up the definition of
stealing because she wasn't stealing that base, she was advancing on an
overthrow.  My daughter plays slow pitch so they can't steal and heaven help
you if you overthrow on us because our girls are quick.

Just my 2 cents.

Nette


Quote:
>   Had a play this weekend at a local A.S.A. Sanctioned "B" division
tourney
> that I have a question about.

>   Batter hits the ball to the pitcher, small, chopped "blooper" hit.  At
the
> time of the hit the First base breaks, not for the bag but about 10 feet
up
> the line, toward the plate.  Stops and takes the throw to tag my runner
out.
> Is this not interference??  Should the baseman not have went to her bag??
> Just seems like this kind of play would be inviting injuries.

>   Now, we were winning, and went on to win, so I am not just griping to
make
> excuses.  There was plenty to gripe about in this, and the 2 other games
we
> had on that field.  For instance, opposing catcher throws down to 1st to
cut
> down baserunner with too big of a lead, throw goes over 1st bases head, my
> runner goes on to second.  Field blue tells me to bring her back to 1st,
she
> can't steal on the throw.  I tell him it is a passed ball, she can go one
> base.  Home plate ump has to walk out to center of infield to tell him she
> gets the base.  We won't even get into some of the events at the plate,
> GEEEZZZ!!

>   Thanks in advance for your reply,
>   Jim C Roberts


 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Mike Ro » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:36:23

Quote:
>  Batter hits the ball to the pitcher, small, chopped "blooper" hit.  At the
>time of the hit the First base breaks, not for the bag but about 10 feet up
>the line, toward the plate.  Stops and takes the throw to tag my runner out.
>Is this not interference??  Should the baseman not have went to her bag??
>Just seems like this kind of play would be inviting injuries.

Interference?  You just killed your credibility.  Interference is an offensive
penalty.  Actually, this is a pretty smart play by F3 if there are runner on
base.

Quote:
>  Now, we were winning, and went on to win, so I am not just griping to make
>excuses.  There was plenty to gripe about in this, and the 2 other games we
>had on that field.  For instance, opposing catcher throws down to 1st to cut
>down baserunner with too big of a lead, throw goes over 1st bases head, my
>runner goes on to second.  Field blue tells me to bring her back to 1st, she
>can't steal on the throw.  I tell him it is a passed ball, she can go one
>base.  Home plate ump has to walk out to center of infield to tell him she
>gets the base.  We won't even get into some of the events at the plate,
>GEEEZZZ!!

>  Thanks in advance for your reply,
>  Jim C Roberts

Yep, the runner may advance with liability to be put out unless the ball
entered dead-ball territory.  It sounds like the umpire was either enforcing a
local rule where he shouldn't have been, or needs to bone up on his rules.

But a "passed ball"?  It is NOT a passed ball.  If anything, it is an errant
throw.  If it leaves the field of play, it then becomes an "overthrow."  If it
contacts equipment or person which is not supposed to be in the field of play,
it becomes a "blocked ball".

If you are going to coach these kids, you should at least learn the basics so
it sounds like you know what you are talking about.  It looks like the blues
are not the only one who need to open the rule book.

Mike

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Cptnplanet » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:30:23

Nette........a ball thrown into dead ball territory is a two base
award......not one.  Unless you have a local rule that governs awards in kid
ball (8U and below).

Joel

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Koszy » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:13:15

Nothing wrong as long as the defender doesn't block the basepath without the
ball.  Our Trevian 18s used this as a set play a few years back:

With a runner on 3B, no force in effect and less than 2 outs, we'd station
the first-baseman half way up the line with her left foot planted just
inside the line.  Any hard hit to the left side or pitcher could be fielded
and thrown to the first baseman for the quick tag, or, to the second baseman
covering 1B.  The option was to the fielder making the catch.  The idea is
to get the batter with a tag and hold the runner or, best case, trick the 3B
runner into breaking for home.

The girls didn't want to try it in a game, but the first time we did we got
lucky and turned a bang-bang double play.  We lost the game but the girls
still talk about that play years later.

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Jim Robert » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:32:28

. Seems more likely 2nd blew

Quote:
> the cover on the short ball, or the pitcher simply blew the throw....

  No, the thrower threw exactly to where the 1st baseman was, 10 feet up the
line.  In my eyes this was an intentional act to impede my runner.  A later
post says the term "interference" is the wrong term, so what is it called?

Quote:
> Certainly sounds like 10B's! What part of the country are you in?

> Rick

   Not sure what the first part of that statement means, but we were playing
in the Chattanooga, Tn. area.

  I am now putting on my Nomex underwear, preparing for the flamers who are
sure to post that because of my geographical location, we are less important
than them.

  See ya,
  Jim

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Nett » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:04:52

Must be a local rule then.  My daughter played 8 and unders in SC in Rec
ball and USSSA tournaments and they only gave them one base on an overthrow
no matter where the ball went.  I MUCH prefer the older groups that let them
run on those overthrows.  When you  get that age they should know how to
make good throws and if they don't that's their penalty.  :^)

Nette


Quote:
> Nette........a ball thrown into dead ball territory is a two base
> award......not one.  Unless you have a local rule that governs awards in
kid
> ball (8U and below).

> Joel

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Nett » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:09:09

Hmmm why would you be less important since you are from TN?  I'm in SC.
This group is for everyone.

Nette


Quote:

>    Not sure what the first part of that statement means, but we were
playing
> in the Chattanooga, Tn. area.

>   I am now putting on my Nomex underwear, preparing for the flamers who
are
> sure to post that because of my geographical location, we are less
important
> than them.

>   See ya,
>   Jim

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Cptnplanet » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:57:35

OK.......I've got it Nette......we use a similar rule in Kid ball 8U and
below.....My mistake.....I thought you were refering to a ball thrown into Dead
Ball Territory......completely different than a a simple overthrow.

Joel

Quote:

>Must be a local rule then.  My daughter played 8 and unders in SC in Rec
>ball and USSSA tournaments and they only gave them one base on an overthrow
>no matter where the ball went.

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Raiders Coac » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:11:04

Jim... I'm not from that famous west coast state either. I asked about your
location because I've had a lot of experience with ASA playing in areas
where ASA is not the *** organization. I've seen first hand the
extremely rough roll out of the ASA 10U stealing rules... due to the umpires
taking off their "other" org cap, putting on their ASA cap, and not stopping
to read the rules. The umpires at the 10U B Nationals had to be briefed just
before the tournament!!! Was this game indeed 10U???

As for the play, (and I'm sure Mr. Rowe will chime in shortly), It couldn't
be any form of interference unless the fielder blocked your runner without
the ball. I've actually seen this done as a set play in older age groups
with a runner on third and less than two outs.

Rick


Quote:

> . Seems more likely 2nd blew
> > the cover on the short ball, or the pitcher simply blew the throw....

>   No, the thrower threw exactly to where the 1st baseman was, 10 feet up
the
> line.  In my eyes this was an intentional act to impede my runner.  A
later
> post says the term "interference" is the wrong term, so what is it called?

> > Certainly sounds like 10B's! What part of the country are you in?

> > Rick

>    Not sure what the first part of that statement means, but we were
playing
> in the Chattanooga, Tn. area.

>   I am now putting on my Nomex underwear, preparing for the flamers who
are
> sure to post that because of my geographical location, we are less
important
> than them.

>   See ya,
>   Jim

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Mike Ro » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:13:37

Quote:
> A later
>post says the term "interference" is the wrong term, so what is it called?

When a member of the defensive team impedes a member of the offensive team
without the ball, it is refered to as obstruction.  Since F3 had the ball, it
is nothing, but a good play.

Interference is the act of a member of the offensive team impeding the defense
from making a play.

These are all spelled out in Rules 1 & 8 and in POE 28 & 31 of the ASA 2001
Rules Book.

Mike

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Bill Smi » Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:34:07

Quote:
>>>As for the play, (and I'm sure Mr. Rowe will chime in shortly), It couldn't

be any form of interference unless the fielder blocked your runner without
the ball. I've actually seen this done as a set play in older age groups
with a runner on third and less than two outs.<<<

We have faced this play with increasing frequency as teams adopt the 'whatever
they can get away with policy'.  Specifically, with a runner on first, bunt
coverage situation, first base covered in down the line aggressively, PITCHOUT,
catcher immediately fires to first base, covering second baseperson's attempt
is to get between the runner and the bag as the pitch is being thrown and we
have potential for collision, double jeopardy (non-technical version), etc.

Bottom line, returning runner is now faced with a fielder who is making a catch
on an already thrown ball, but has no safe access to the bag. We could just not
take a lead more than the room that the second sacker would physcially occupy.
We could always take off for second on every hint that this play appears to be
in motion.  Umpires have told me, "I can't call obstruction on the fielder
unless your runner make contact."  Well, by strict interpretation of the rule,
doesn't obstruction/interference leave the judgement to the umpire without
there actually having to be physcial contact?

Bottom line, this tactic is unsafe.  Is the rules committee aware of this and
other situations that are developing... like an entire team shouting, "Go with
it.", or "Turn on it.", to signal where the catcher is setting up.  I have
asked the umpire to chase fans from behind the backstop that were giving such
advice to the batter, but have not made much headway in trying to explain the
path of logic of where a team leaves us when they start informing their batter
where they THINK the ball is going.

I, for one, will not use the MLB penalty enforcement to rectify this matter.  I
am sure some aggressive former baseball playing coach will.

If you use any of the above tactics, could you please defend them here in open
forum.  I would be pleased to take the time to explain my reasoning as to the
safety issues that pertain to the above.
Bill Smith

NorCal--SF Bay Area

 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Reid1bo » Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:03:39

Quote:
>, PITCHOUT,
>catcher immediately fires to first base, covering second baseperson's attempt
>is to get between the runner and the bag as the pitch is being thrown and we
>have potential for collision, double jeopardy (non-technical version), etc.

>Bottom line, returning runner is now faced with a fielder who is making a
>catch
>on an already thrown ball, but has no safe access to the bag. We could just
>not
>take a lead more than the room that the second sacker would physcially
>occupy.
>We could always take off for second on every hint that this play appears to
>be
>in motion.

So why dont you take off for second then?? WE do this play everytime a
baserunner is too agressive on their leads. It is no different than the
shortstop covering second on a steal attempt from first. Have used this pick
play for 4 years and NEVER once was there an injury. By the way, there is no
obstruction for the umpire to call in 99% of the cases as the 2nd baseman will
have the ball before your runner reaches the bag. If you break for second a
good team will get you out there also. Bottom line is be smart on the bases.

have told me, "I can't call obstruction on the fielder

Quote:
>unless your runner make contact."  Well, by strict interpretation of the
>rule,
>doesn't obstruction/interference leave the judgement to the umpire without
>there actually having to be physcial contact?

Hard to have obstruction when the fielder is making a play on the ball.

Quote:

>Bottom line, this tactic is unsafe.

See above

  Is the rules committee aware of this and

Quote:
>other situations that are developing... like an entire team shouting, "Go
>with
>it.", or "Turn on it.", to signal where the catcher is setting up.

I could come straight out and tell the hitter where the catcher is setting up
if I wanted to, nothing keeps me from doing so in the rule book. I personally
think that is stupid as the hitter needs to react to where the ball is thrown
and not where the catcher sets up, but I promise you I relay when the changeups
are coming if I have stolen the sign from the catcher. My baserunners will do
the same thing.  Bottom line is once again, Be smarter than your opponant.

  I have

Quote:
>asked the umpire to chase fans from behind the backstop that were giving such
>advice to the batter,

God advice as those fans are normally parents who shouldnt be talking to suzie
while up to bat.

 but have not made much headway in trying to explain the

Quote:
>path of logic of where a team leaves us when they start informing their
>batter
>where they THINK the ball is going.

>I, for one, will not use the MLB penalty enforcement to rectify this matter.
>I
>am sure some aggressive former baseball playing coach will.

>If you use any of the above tactics, could you please defend them here in
>open
>forum.  I would be pleased to take the time to explain my reasoning as to the
>safety issues that pertain to the above.
>Bill Smith

>NorCal--SF Bay Area

corey
 
 
 

Question for the Group....

Post by Mike Ro » Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:02:19

Quote:
>Bottom line, returning runner is now faced with a fielder who is making a
>catch
>on an already thrown ball, but has no safe access to the bag. We could just
>not
>take a lead more than the room that the second sacker would physcially
>occupy.
>We could always take off for second on every hint that this play appears to
>be
>in motion.  Umpires have told me, "I can't call obstruction on the fielder
>unless your runner make contact."  Well, by strict interpretation of the
>rule,
>doesn't obstruction/interference leave the judgement to the umpire without
>there actually having to be physcial contact?

No, contact is not necessary.  However, as the umpire, I must feel that the
runner was impeded by the defensive player to call obstruction  Quite often,
you will see runners calmly step around the player covering the base.  Well,
not being a mind reader, if there was nothing in the girl's motion which showed
a change in direction or purpose, I cannot call obstruction.

Quote:
>Bottom line, this tactic is unsafe.  Is the rules committee aware of this and
>other situations that are developing... like an entire team shouting, "Go
>with
>it.", or "Turn on it.", to signal where the catcher is setting up.  I have
>asked the umpire to chase fans from behind the backstop that were giving such
>advice to the batter, but have not made much headway in trying to explain the
>path of logic of where a team leaves us when they start informing their
>batter
>where they THINK the ball is going.

Actually, the umpire has no authority over non-participants outside of the
fences.  On the other hand, what's the difference where those folks are
standing.  They could just as easily offer the same advice from many other
parts of the spectator's area.
Quote:
>I, for one, will not use the MLB penalty enforcement to rectify this matter.
>I
>am sure some aggressive former baseball playing coach will.

>If you use any of the above tactics, could you please defend them here in
>open
>forum.  I would be pleased to take the time to explain my reasoning as to the
>safety issues that pertain to the above.
>Bill Smith

>NorCal--SF Bay Area