2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Scott Star » Sun, 06 Aug 2000 04:00:00


[real email below]

I have two questions about softball rules that came up in a game the
other night.

#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the batter's
box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the plate, but
before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

#2: There is a runner on first base. After the ball is hit, the catcher
throws it to the first baseman, who tags first base. Assuming the runner
hasn't been tagged out, does he/she still have to go to second base, or
can they return to first?

Bonus question:
2A) In the above scenario, assume that both #1 and #2 have happened. The
first base runner, thinking it was a foul ball, doesn't run, but remains
standing on first base. The first baseman, after receiving the throw
from the catcher, tags the runner (who is standing on the base) but does
NOT tag the base. QUESTION: Is anybody out at this point?

This actually happened and caused a great deal of confusion on both
sides. I'd be curious to know the legalities of these situations.

thanks!
Scott Stark

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Christoph Gaa » Sun, 06 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>I have two questions about softball rules that came up in a game the
>other night.

>#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the batter's
>box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the plate, but
>before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

No, it's foul. The batter's box lines really have nothing to do with a ball
being fair or foul. Only the foul lines do.

Quote:

>#2: There is a runner on first base. After the ball is hit, the catcher
>throws it to the first baseman, who tags first base. Assuming the runner
>hasn't been tagged out, does he/she still have to go to second base, or
>can they return to first?

The runner can return to first.

Quote:
>Bonus question:
>2A) In the above scenario, assume that both #1 and #2 have happened. The
>first base runner, thinking it was a foul ball, doesn't run, but remains
>standing on first base. The first baseman, after receiving the throw
>from the catcher, tags the runner (who is standing on the base) but does
>NOT tag the base. QUESTION: Is anybody out at this point?

If the umpire called it a fair ball, then the runner on first is out. The
batter is safe at first (assuming the batter touched first base).
Quote:

>This actually happened and caused a great deal of confusion on both
>sides. I'd be curious to know the legalities of these situations.

>thanks!
>Scott Stark



 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Vince Mue » Sun, 06 Aug 2000 04:00:00

On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 22:23:22 GMT, Scott Stark

Quote:

>[real email below]

>I have two questions about softball rules that came up in a game the
>other night.

>#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the batter's
>box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the plate, but
>before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

The ball is foul if it rolls into foul territory before being touched
by a defensive player.  The area BEHIND the plate would be foul
territory.

Quote:
>#2: There is a runner on first base. After the ball is hit, the catcher
>throws it to the first baseman, who tags first base. Assuming the runner
>hasn't been tagged out, does he/she still have to go to second base, or
>can they return to first?

Assuming the ball is fair, the batter-runner is out on a force play.
R1 can go to 2nd or remain at 1st.  R1 is at liability for being put
out if they do not make it back to 1st or on to 2nd safely.

If the ball is foul (as in #1) R1 must return to 1st without liability
to be put out.

Quote:
>Bonus question:
>2A) In the above scenario, assume that both #1 and #2 have happened. The
>first base runner, thinking it was a foul ball, doesn't run, but remains
>standing on first base. The first baseman, after receiving the throw
>from the catcher, tags the runner (who is standing on the base) but does
>NOT tag the base. QUESTION: Is anybody out at this point?

Because in condition #1 the ball is foul, the batter returns to the
plate and R1 returns to 1st without liability to be put out.  Dead
ball is in effect on the foul.
Quote:

>This actually happened and caused a great deal of confusion on both
>sides. I'd be curious to know the legalities of these situations.

>thanks!
>Scott Stark



 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Putchk » Mon, 07 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA games for
years.
#1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a foul ball.
The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches the ball.
Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

#2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad baserunning) to
first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged the runner
that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the defense, the
force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

#2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this was all one
scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE point.

HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN YOUR SOFTBALL
ENDEAVORS.

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Mike Ro » Tue, 08 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>#1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a foul
>ball.
>The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches the
>ball.
>Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up..

Speaking ASA:

While the result is correct, foul ball, the statement that the batter's box is
in foul territory is not true.  Part of the batter's box is located in fair
territory and the batter's box has no relevence as to a ball being fair or
foul.

Mike Rowe  
DASA Deputy UIC  
Delaware Softball Umpire Assn  
NASO member  

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Warren Duf » Tue, 08 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Using ISF Rules.

#1:  The ball is foul.

#2: The force is broken, hence is now not forced anywhere. They may return
to first, or procede to second with libaility to be put out by being tagged.

#2a:     Assuming that the ball is foul, then nothing happens. The ball is
foul.
            Assuming that the ball is fair, then you have a runner that is
forced off the base they occupied by the batter becoming a
batter-baserrunner. Hence the tag retires R1. Touching the base would now
retire the batter base runner, completing a double play. However, if the bag
is stepped on first, the force is broken, and R1 can remain on the base.

It is a matter of priorities and events.  Determine if the runner is forced
to advance and when was the force broken.

Hope that helps

Warren Duff
Level 4 ASF Umpire
Perth, Western Australia


Quote:
> [real email below]

> I have two questions about softball rules that came up in a game the
> other night.

> #1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the batter's
> box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the plate, but
> before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

> #2: There is a runner on first base. After the ball is hit, the catcher
> throws it to the first baseman, who tags first base. Assuming the runner
> hasn't been tagged out, does he/she still have to go to second base, or
> can they return to first?

> Bonus question:
> 2A) In the above scenario, assume that both #1 and #2 have happened. The
> first base runner, thinking it was a foul ball, doesn't run, but remains
> standing on first base. The first baseman, after receiving the throw
> from the catcher, tags the runner (who is standing on the base) but does
> NOT tag the base. QUESTION: Is anybody out at this point?

> This actually happened and caused a great deal of confusion on both
> sides. I'd be curious to know the legalities of these situations.

> thanks!
> Scott Stark


 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by alanj.. » Tue, 08 Aug 2000 04:00:00

The ball is nNOT foul UNTIL it is touched in fould territory by a
player, hits an object like the fence, or stops rolling in fould
territory.

Until thhat happens the is in play and no call should be made.

Once the ball becomes FOUL it is dead and all runners and the batter
runner return to their original position (exception is a caught foul
fly ball).


Quote:

> >#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the

batter's box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the
plate, but before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?
 The ball is foul if it rolls into foul territory before being touched

Quote:
> by a defensive player.  The area BEHIND the plate would be foul
> territory.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by alanj.. » Wed, 09 Aug 2000 04:00:00

I thought that part of the batters box was in fair territory.

If it is, then the ball is only foul if it is touched in foul territory.

Alan



Quote:
> Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA
games for
> years.
> #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a
foul ball.
> The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches
the ball.
> Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad
baserunning) to
> first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged
the runner
> that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the
defense, the
> force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this was
all one
> scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE point.

> HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN YOUR
SOFTBALL
> ENDEAVORS.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Warren Duf » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00

The batters box has absolutely nothing to do with a fair or foul ball.

You are correct that a portion of the batter's box is in fair territory.
However, it does not mean anything when juding the position of the a
battered ball to be fair or foul.

The only time a batter's box should be used is at the start of the pitch
(making sure the batter is totally with in the box) and when the batter
makes contact with a ball (making sure that some part of the batters foot is
within the box, or touching a line without touching any of the plate).
Other than that, the box is not used.

Personally, I preferr not to have a batter's box at all. Causes less
problems.

Warren Duff
Level 4 ASF Umpire

Quote:

> I thought that part of the batters box was in fair territory.

> If it is, then the ball is only foul if it is touched in foul territory.

> Alan



> > Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA
> games for
> > years.
> > #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a
> foul ball.
> > The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches
> the ball.
> > Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> > #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad
> baserunning) to
> > first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged
> the runner
> > that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the
> defense, the
> > force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> > #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this was
> all one
> > scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE point.

> > HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN YOUR
> SOFTBALL
> > ENDEAVORS.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by alanj.. » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Yes Sir!!!!!!!!

I was only correcting the previous reponder.

The ball is judged to fair or foul based upon its position in relation
to the foul lines.

Alan



Quote:
> The batters box has absolutely nothing to do with a fair or foul ball.

> You are correct that a portion of the batter's box is in fair
territory.
> However, it does not mean anything when juding the position of the a
> battered ball to be fair or foul.

> The only time a batter's box should be used is at the start of the
pitch
> (making sure the batter is totally with in the box) and when the
batter
> makes contact with a ball (making sure that some part of the batters
foot is
> within the box, or touching a line without touching any of the plate).
> Other than that, the box is not used.

> Personally, I preferr not to have a batter's box at all. Causes less
> problems.

> Warren Duff
> Level 4 ASF Umpire




- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> > I thought that part of the batters box was in fair territory.

> > If it is, then the ball is only foul if it is touched in foul
territory.

> > Alan



> > > Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA
> > games for
> > > years.
> > > #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have
been a
> > foul ball.
> > > The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player
touches
> > the ball.
> > > Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> > > #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad
> > baserunning) to
> > > first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged
> > the runner
> > > that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the
> > defense, the
> > > force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> > > #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this
was
> > all one
> > > scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE
point.

> > > HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN
YOUR
> > SOFTBALL
> > > ENDEAVORS.

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Ben » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> The ball is nNOT foul UNTIL it is touched in fould territory by a
> player, hits an object like the fence, or stops rolling in fould
> territory.

> Until thhat happens the is in play and no call should be made.

So you're saying that it's possible for a batted ball to land in foul
territory and, if it has enough spin on it, come back into fair
territory and be a fair ball?

I've never seen that happen, but I've certainly seen line drives and
fly balls take some odd bounces so I could envision a situation where
one lands just inches foul, but careens back into fair territory.

The follow-up to this is: is it then improper for umpires to be
yelling "Foul ball" while the ball is still in the air?  The umps in
our league make that call commonly on fly balls that are clearly
outside the foul line...even though they haven't landed yet.

-Ben-

Quote:

> Once the ball becomes FOUL it is dead and all runners and the batter
> runner return to their original position (exception is a caught foul
> fly ball).


> > >#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the
> batter's box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the
> plate, but before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

>  The ball is foul if it rolls into foul territory before being touched
> > by a defensive player.  The area BEHIND the plate would be foul
> > territory.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

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Before you buy.
 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by decline » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00

why al. the foul line extends from the back point of the plate to the bases,
wherever the lines for the batters box are drawn

if it bounces in front of that imaginary line, bingo, fair....

Quote:

> I thought that part of the batters box was in fair territory.

> If it is, then the ball is only foul if it is touched in foul territory.

> Alan



> > Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA
> games for
> > years.
> > #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a
> foul ball.
> > The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches
> the ball.
> > Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> > #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad
> baserunning) to
> > first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged
> the runner
> > that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the
> defense, the
> > force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> > #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this was
> all one
> > scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE point.

> > HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN YOUR
> SOFTBALL
> > ENDEAVORS.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by moa1 » Thu, 10 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Better check your ASA rulebook (and case book) again, only a portion of the
batter's box in foul territory.  That portion of the batter's box that
extends into fair territory is, of course, in fair territory.  However, for
a batter to be out he must be outside the batter's box when contact is made
with a fair batting ball.  If a batted ball settles in the batter's box, but
in fair territory, that is a fair ball and the batter-runner can be thrown
or tagged out.

Quote:
> Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA games
for
> years.
> #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have been a foul
ball.
> The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player touches the
ball.
> Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad baserunning)
to
> first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged the
runner
> that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the defense,
the
> force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this was all
one
> scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE point.

> HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN YOUR
SOFTBALL
> ENDEAVORS.

 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by alanj.. » Fri, 11 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Its all about where the ball is touched in determining foul.

Touched in fair territory ---FAIR

Touched in Fould territory ---FOUL

Next question



Quote:
> why al. the foul line extends from the back point of the plate to the
bases,
> wherever the lines for the batters box are drawn

> if it bounces in front of that imaginary line, bingo, fair....




Quote:
> > I thought that part of the batters box was in fair territory.

> > If it is, then the ball is only foul if it is touched in foul
territory.

> > Alan



> > > Scott, This is the answers to your softball ?'s. Having Umped ASA
> > games for
> > > years.
> > > #1 the batters box is in foul territory it is and should have
been a
> > foul ball.
> > > The fair or foul call is based on where the defensive player
touches
> > the ball.
> > > Hence the catcher being in the box its a FOUL BALL. Batter Up...

> > > #2 The runner after the first base is tagged can return(bad
> > baserunning) to
> > > first base or proceed to second. However once first base is tagged
> > the runner
> > > that was on first trying to go to second must get tagged by the
> > defense, the
> > > force play was eliminated by going to first base first..

> > > #2A Going back to what was originally asked I didnt realize this
was
> > all one
> > > scenario. Anyhow the ball is foul so question 2 then is a MUTE
point.

> > > HOPE THIS HELPED YOU, AND HOPE YOU HAVE GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR IN
YOUR
> > SOFTBALL
> > > ENDEAVORS.

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

2 softball rules questions (and a bonus question)

Post by Warren Duf » Fri, 11 Aug 2000 04:00:00

The rule book states that a ball is not foul, until it stops in foul
territory, or is (first) touched by a player in foul territory. Hence an
umpire should not call "Foul Ball" until such an event occurs.

Having said that, the teaching I follow and pass on goes along the lines of.

    If it is an obvious foul boul, then don't bother to verbalise it loudly
(unless runners on). By obvious, I mean a foul ball hitting a back net or
being 30 feet foul. A foul ball signal can be given but is not required.
    The closer that ball is to the line, the louder the call.
    Slow down and take your time - a foul ball kills all play, so there is
no need to call it too early. Late the play happen, see the ball and make
the call. Timing is of the most importance.

Hope that helps.

Warren Duff


Quote:


> > The ball is nNOT foul UNTIL it is touched in fould territory by a
> > player, hits an object like the fence, or stops rolling in fould
> > territory.

> > Until thhat happens the is in play and no call should be made.

> So you're saying that it's possible for a batted ball to land in foul
> territory and, if it has enough spin on it, come back into fair
> territory and be a fair ball?

> I've never seen that happen, but I've certainly seen line drives and
> fly balls take some odd bounces so I could envision a situation where
> one lands just inches foul, but careens back into fair territory.

> The follow-up to this is: is it then improper for umpires to be
> yelling "Foul ball" while the ball is still in the air?  The umps in
> our league make that call commonly on fly balls that are clearly
> outside the foul line...even though they haven't landed yet.

> -Ben-

> > Once the ball becomes FOUL it is dead and all runners and the batter
> > runner return to their original position (exception is a caught foul
> > fly ball).


> > > >#1: The batter hits the ball, and it rolls backwards into the
> > batter's box, across the plate. The catcher picks it up behind the
> > plate, but before it exits the batter's box. Is the ball fair?

> >  The ball is foul if it rolls into foul territory before being touched
> > > by a defensive player.  The area BEHIND the plate would be foul
> > > territory.

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.