Epee lesson and bout

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Fri, 25 Aug 1995 04:00:00


What is the relationship? In a bout
unlike in a lesson, the target is out
of distance most of the time, in motion
and behind the bell guard..
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Mary Ellen Curti » Fri, 25 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

>What is the relationship? In a bout
>unlike in a lesson, the target is out
>of distance most of the time, in motion
>and behind the bell guard..

That depends on the type of lesson.  In technical lessons, much time
is spent ingraining the handwork and footwork necessary to hit any
target that is open or opening.  Tactical lessons, on the other hand,
are more geared toward teaching the fencer how to create the opening.
Both types of lessons are useful, but epee is very unforgiving of
poor technique, so the majority of the lessons tend to be primarily
technical.

Dirk Goldgar

postal:    9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534,  USA

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>That depends on the type of lesson.  In technical lessons, much time
>is spent ingraining the handwork and footwork necessary to hit any
>target that is open or opening.  Tactical lessons, on the other hand,
>are more geared toward teaching the fencer how to create the opening.
>Both types of lessons are useful, but epee is very unforgiving of
>poor technique, so the majority of the lessons tend to be primarily
>technical.

Is there any bibliography on epee tactics?
I rarely see any openings vs experienced epee
fencers and I find lessons unrelistic from that
point of view.
Thanks.  Regards.

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Alexandre S?vign » Sun, 27 Aug 1995 04:00:00

As far as I can tell the relationship is one of tool and application,
philosophy and interiorisation.

Viz.:

You take a lesson from the Maitre d'Armes during which you are expected
to perform a series of reptitive and limited tasks in sequence, fluidly
and with precision.  This "theoretical" base should then serve as an
example of how you should react in an idealised situation.  Once armed
ith this abstract-level knowledge, it is up to you to learn the
intuitive and inductive techniques required to adapt the "theory" such
that it may serve you during actual combat.

Think of the discrete bits of precise knowledge that you gain from your
static lesson in a controlled environment as a the forming of an arsenal
of weapons that reply to different failings on the part of your
opponent.  At first, you feel as though there is no relation, but as you
become more familiar with them and they become second nature, you will
find that each manoeuver is a reaction to something that your opponent
may do.  Eventually, you will react appropriately without even having to
consciously evaluate what your opponent is doing.

Now, I realise that often these theoretically beautiful disengages and
"bottes" are rather useless against a green beginner, but even there,
you find that a combination of distance, self-posession, technique and
active monitoring will enable you to use your advanced techniques even
against the most bewildering display of chaotic blade-flailing!

Alexandre Sevigny
Section de linguistique
Departement d'etudes francaises
Universite de Toronto


 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Sun, 27 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>Eventually, you will react appropriately without even having to
>consciously evaluate what your opponent is doing.

I wish I could do that..
Regards.
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Till Noev » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

> What is the relationship? In a bout
> unlike in a lesson, the target is out
> of distance most of the time, in motion
> and behind the bell guard..

Yeah. Epee lessons differ from epee 'reality' considerably more than foil
lessons do from foil reality. One of the reasons why I prefer 'friendly
bouting' (in both weapons, actually) to more formal drills. You can
practice without getting too bothered about losing, and it's by far more
'realistic'. In the end, for those who can discipline themselves to using
friendly bouts as exercises (rather than ego trips), I think it may be a
more efficient way to go than 'lessons'. The main real benefit I can see
from epee lessons is that they help you with practising your point control
(especially for digs and attacks on the arm).

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The question is not whether to 'go gentle', but whether to go at all..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note: The views expressed in this article are my own, and should not reflect in any way on my employer or the University of Otago.

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Solomand » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

In other words... most lessons are tactics.  Bouting adds strategy.
Joel
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>Yeah. Epee lessons differ from epee 'reality' considerably more than foil
>lessons do from foil reality.

Yes, and in my experience, in foil I can <see> the target
while in epee I don't most of the time. It is behind the
bell guard..  Regards.
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>In other words... most lessons are tactics.  Bouting adds strategy.

I am not quite sure about the difference.. My basic question
is this: The director says "fence": <Now> what do I do?.. The oponent
is out of range with all targets covered and in motion. Regards.
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Noah Lee Zuck » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

>>Yeah. Epee lessons differ from epee 'reality' considerably more than foil
>>lessons do from foil reality.

>Yes, and in my experience, in foil I can <see> the target
>while in epee I don't most of the time. It is behind the
>bell guard..  Regards.

you guys are forgeting that before you can practice different actions in a
bout, you have to practice them(i.e. hundreds if not thousands of reps)
Yes this is boring, but you can't learn to play a concierto by picking
out random keys. You'll learn faster and more correctly by practicing
scales and chords.

Free fencing is good for the aforementioned reasons, but drills are a necessity

just my 2c

NZ

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>Free fencing is good for the aforementioned reasons, but drills are a
>necessity

My problem is that at least in my experience, coaches give you
the target and attainable distance.  For obvious reasons this is
not the case in a bout.  Regards.
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by David W Neev » Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:00:00


Quote:
>>Free fencing is good for the aforementioned reasons, but drills are a
>>necessity

> My problem is that at least in my experience, coaches give you
> the target and attainable distance.  For obvious reasons this is
> not the case in a bout.  Regards.

It depends on what sort of a lesson you are getting. For a technical lesson,
where the object is ot teach the proper technique in executing a certain
action, the instructor will try give you the proper distance and opening
so that you can practice getting the action down. The other type of lesson
is more tactically oriented, and concentrates on recognising or creating
appropriate hitting tempos. I often have both sorts of approaches when I'm
getting a lesson-- it'll start off, for example, working on proper technique
for indirect attacks, and I'll be more or less given the proper distance and
openings to succeed if I execute properly. After a stretch of such tecnique
practice, my instructor will start varying the distance and his actions, and
it will be up to me to recognize the difference between indirect and direct
distance, and to create opportunities to hit. While this is not quite the
same as practice bouting (and certainly no substitute for it), it is still
much more than just a technique lesson.

                                -Dave N.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Neevel        | Unless you are very elastic by nature, your first

                    | grace and aplomb of an elephant. Beginners are
All opinions are    | astonished, and somewhat embarrassed, by this hitherto
personally crafted  | unsuspected physical resemblance to perhaps the most
by elves in accor-  | intelligent of all animals.
dance with Old World|
traditions.         |                           Aldo Nadi
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Till Noev » Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:

> My basic question
> is this: The director says "fence": <Now> what do I do?.. The oponent
> is out of range with all targets covered and in motion.

Well, I'd say that's the question in all fencing. Of course, in the polite
world of foil there are some immediate suggestions. Like attack and see
what happens. If your attack fails then parry and riposte - and things
will generally flow from that...

There is no such comparatively predictable rhythm in epee, though
sometimes the exchanges may look similar. The problem with epee is that it
is much more psychological. A guy who used to coach me, once described
epee bouting as a game in which the main element was 'who suckered whom'
(given that we have two fencers of roughly equivalent skills in the basic
motions of the game).

Maybe the best advice is: DON'T DO ANYTHING. Do the footwork and keep up
your guard - and your distance. That's the way I start when facing an
unknown opponent. Let HIM to the work! Epee is the game where the attacker
is very often the one at a disadvantage.

Look for an opening. Don't rush things. Create some fake openings of your
own and try to sucker the opponent into attacking you in some predictable
fashion (but be subtle about it). Play the dummy and attack somewhere
where you know damned well that you're not going to hit, but where you're
still safe; and thereby elicit a reaction from your opponent that in turn
may expose *him* to your own defensive (or counter-offensive) measures.
Play with his blade and see how he reacts.

And keep your distance...

I'm sure others will be able to elaborate on those suggestions.

Happy fencing.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The question is not whether to 'go gentle', but whether to go at all..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note: The views expressed in this article are my own, and should not reflect in any way on my employer or the University of Otago.

 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Natl » Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:00:00

Quote:
>Maybe the best advice is: DON'T DO ANYTHING. Do the footwork and keep up
>your guard - and your distance. That's the way I start when facing an
>unknown opponent. Let HIM to the work! Epee is the game where the
attacker
>is very often the one at a disadvantage.
>Look for an opening. Don't rush things. Create some fake openings of your
>own and try to sucker the opponent into attacking you in some predictable
>fashion (but be subtle about it). Play the dummy and attack somewhere
>where you know damned well that you're not going to hit, but where you're
>still safe; and thereby elicit a reaction from your opponent that in turn
>may expose *him* to your own defensive (or counter-offensive) measures.
>Play with his blade and see how he reacts.
>And keep your distance...

That is excellent advice.  Thanks.
 
 
 

Epee lesson and bout

Post by Sasha Zucke » Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:00:00


Quote:
> >Free fencing is good for the aforementioned reasons, but drills are a
> >necessity

> My problem is that at least in my experience, coaches give you
> the target and attainable distance.  For obvious reasons this is
> not the case in a bout.  Regards.

Uhm, of course, but in the bout at least when you've gotten axess to the
target and attainable distance then you'll know what to do! BTW- if
you're coach is a good coach then you'll be able to use what you learn in
fencing bouts. Otherwise, what's the point of taking a lesson if not to
prepare you for actual fencing?  Sincerely.

-sasha e. zucker