Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by MAURICE DONNERS SH 4. » Fri, 24 Mar 1995 01:15:41


Bayonet fencing has long been a popular form of fencing in several European
countries, but it kind of dissapeared after WWII. At our fencing club (PSV
Eindhoven in the Netherlands) we have now introduced bayonet fencing.
Is there anyone out there who is also involved in bayonet fencing, or has
some information on bayonet fencing in his own country (past or present)?
(I have heared about some kind of bayonet fencing in Japan (not sure if this
is real fencing) and in France.)

Secondly, about each European country, up to the end of the previous
century, seems to have had its own types of stick fighting. In England the
short stick and 'backswording' were known, in France 'La canne de combat',
in the Netherlands fencers used a long stick and a short stick technique
known as fencing with 'lange en korte stok' and there are names as cudgel,
sapling, quarterstaff etcetera. Who can give more information on all these
kinds of 'extinct' fencing? Are there people still involved in these
activities? What types of fencing (using sticks or other weapons) were used
in your country? Is there a survey of all these different techniques?

Maurice Donners,
Eindhoven University of Technology

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Morgan Bur » Fri, 24 Mar 1995 05:37:09


[ asks about bayonet and stick fighting ]

There is a Japanese bayonet martial art (uses wooden guns with ***
blades).  Can't remember the name, unfortunately.  It may be low on
the actual fencing and high on the spirit/attitude needed to storm an
enemy trench.

"Single stick" was contested as a fencing event in the 1904 Olympics.
The weapons were sword-sized sticks with wicker hand guards.  Some
period fencing manuals from the 17th-19th centuries cover stick or
cudgel fencing (eg. _Cudgel Playing_, By Captain Sinclair, discussed in
issue 31 of _The Iaido Newsletter_ [editor Kim Taylor

I saw a photo of "French Boxing" once, in which the competitors wore
fencing masks and fought with sticks in a boxing ring.  It was a nice
color photo, so maybe people still do this.

Also check out Escrima, a Phillipino stick fighting art with historical
links to Spanish rapier fencing.  A recent issue of "Journal of East Asian
Martial Arts" had an in-depth article on the subject.  Arnis is another
Asian stick-fighting art that may be related to Escrima;  I've seen it
practiced with two relatively short sticks.  Both are still taught and
practiced, and you may be able to find instructors in your area.  

-- Morgan Burke


 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Mark C. Ort » Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:59:12


Quote:
> Is there anyone out there who is also involved in bayonet fencing, or has
> some information on bayonet fencing in his own country (past or present)?

I have seen sections on bayonet fencing in Russian fencing books.
I don't have specific references, though.

--
      Mark C. Orton
      employed by (but not speaking for)
      Pulse Communications, Inc.

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Christophe Guetti » Sat, 25 Mar 1995 01:09:12

|> I saw a photo of "French Boxing" once, in which the competitors wore
|> fencing masks and fought with sticks in a boxing ring.  It was a nice
|> color photo, so maybe people still do this.

Stick fencing is still represented in the French Boxing Federation (Federation
Francaise de Boxe Francaise). 3 club of French Boxing are still practicing stick
fencing : I think 2 in Paris and one in Toulouse.

|> -- Morgan Burke

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Morgan Bur » Sat, 25 Mar 1995 04:36:56

|> Stick fencing is still represented in the French Boxing Federation
|> (Federation Francaise de Boxe Francaise). 3 club of French Boxing are
|> still practicing stick fencing : I think 2 in Paris and one in Toulouse.

I would be interested to hear what the basic rules and fighting styles are.

-- Morgan Burke

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Zbigniew Rudz » Sun, 26 Mar 1995 00:23:18

Dear Maurice,

Bayonet fencing was a popular sport in Poland and other Warsaw Treaty
countries in 1950's, owing mainly to the strong support from the
authorities. It was probably perceived as a more 'democratic' kind of
otherwise aristocratic fencing, and more closely linked with the army
schooling. In our club I have seen the old equipment for bayonet fencing
- the rifles were almost identical in shape and weight to the Russian
Mosin rifle and they had the blunt bayonets with the compensating
spring. In the city library I once noticed the short manual of sport
bayonet fencing technique. If I remember, the forearms, elbows and lower
legs were excluded from the target area. The rules were similar to those
in foil. After 1956 this sport became less popular and now it is
completely forgotten. Looking at the rifles, I imagine, how many finger
injuries probably took place !

Zbigniew Rudzki    

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Kim A Tayl » Sun, 26 Mar 1995 02:31:19


: Bayonet fencing has long been a popular form of fencing in several European
: countries, but it kind of dissapeared after WWII. At our fencing club (PSV
: Eindhoven in the Netherlands) we have now introduced bayonet fencing.
: Is there anyone out there who is also involved in bayonet fencing, or has
: some information on bayonet fencing in his own country (past or present)?
: (I have heared about some kind of bayonet fencing in Japan (not sure if this
: is real fencing) and in France.)

: Maurice Donners,
: Eindhoven University of Technology


Date: 23 Mar 95 21:43:51 EST


Subject: Bayonet comment for list

Bayonet fencing, or jukendo as it is known, in Japan, is still practiced,
both within Japan's self-defense forces and by a small portion of the
civilian population. I've been training for about five years. The art
derived from techniques that visiting French military officers taught to the
Japanese in the late 1880's (I believe, I'm traveling, so can't check the
dates). According the All-Japan Jukendo Federation, these techniques were
found to be only partially suited to Japanese soldiers and combat, and so
they went back to traditional styles of spear fighting to enhance or
supplement the technique. By the early 20th century this type of fighting
was also practiced in shiai, or match, form, with the participants wearing
protective equipment similar to that of kendo, with the addition of a
shoulder piece that protects the heart area. Modern jukendo includes
competition, as well as kata training. We use a wooden bayonet, patterned
after the sampachi rifle (38), and we target only the heart (above and below
the arm) and throat. There is also a "little sister" style of tankendo
(short sword way) that focuses on training with the detached bayonet.

Hope this helps answer part of your question.

Diane Skoss
Aikido Journal, Tokyo

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Morgan Bur » Sun, 26 Mar 1995 02:38:27

[forwarded from IAIDO-L mailing list]
Quote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 23 Mar 95 21:43:51 EST


Subject: Bayonet comment for list

Bayonet fencing, or jukendo as it is known, in Japan, is still practiced,
both within Japan's self-defense forces and by a small portion of the
civilian population. I've been training for about five years. The art
derived from techniques that visiting French military officers taught to the
Japanese in the late 1880's (I believe, I'm traveling, so can't check the
dates). According the All-Japan Jukendo Federation, these techniques were
found to be only partially suited to Japanese soldiers and combat, and so
they went back to traditional styles of spear fighting to enhance or
supplement the technique. By the early 20th century this type of fighting
was also practiced in shiai, or match, form, with the participants wearing
protective equipment similar to that of kendo, with the addition of a
shoulder piece that protects the heart area. Modern jukendo includes
competition, as well as kata training. We use a wooden bayonet, patterned
after the sampachi rifle (38), and we target only the heart (above and below
the arm) and throat. There is also a "little sister" style of tankendo
(short sword way) that focuses on training with the detached bayonet.

Hope this helps answer part of your question.

Diane Skoss
Aikido Journal, Tokyo

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by LOMBAR » Sun, 26 Mar 1995 03:28:53

In a former article we saw...

---begin former article---

Subject: Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:15:41 GMT

Bayonet fencing has long been a popular form of fencing in several European
countries, but it kind of dissapeared after WWII. At our fencing club (PSV
Eindhoven in the Netherlands) we have now introduced bayonet fencing.
Is there anyone out there who is also involved in bayonet fencing, or has
some information on bayonet fencing in his own country (past or present)?
(I have heared about some kind of bayonet fencing in Japan (not sure if this
is real fencing) and in France.)

Secondly, about each European country, up to the end of the previous
century, seems to have had its own types of stick fighting. In England the
short stick and 'backswording' were known, in France 'La canne de combat',
in the Netherlands fencers used a long stick and a short stick technique
known as fencing with 'lange en korte stok' and there are names as cudgel,
sapling, quarterstaff etcetera. Who can give more information on all these
kinds of 'extinct' fencing? Are there people still involved in these
activities? What types of fencing (using sticks or other weapons) were used
in your country? Is there a survey of all these different techniques?

Maurice Donners,
Eindhoven University of Technology

---end former article---


Probably the best history of fencing of which I know is Schools and Masters of
Fence, by Edgerton Castle, which despite the prejudices of the author towards
the french school of foil, and what i feel to be a misinterpretation of all
of fencing history as leading up to this, is definitely worth the difficulty
that can be had in attempting to ge ahold of it. Sir Richard Burton wrote a
work dealing with the use of the bayonet, but I have never seen it.

The Japanese  art, I seem to recall, is called jukendo(?) -- it utilizes
bamboo staves similar to those used in Kendo. I know that it is practiced in
this country, but where, I do not know. There are also no books on the subject
to my knowledge.

As to quarterstaff fencing, I have made some forays into this realm, and the y
only advice I hae to offer is not to skimp on protective equipment, make it
illegal to actually connect with blows and thrusts to the head. I have experi
mented with PVC tubes with padding around them, but have not solved the whip-
over problems that can thus result.

I have also been working on the theory of quarterstaff fencing, using both
personal experience, and old texts, together with some forms from Kung Fu, and
Japanese bo kata, but as of yet, I do not feel confident enough to publish
any of my work on this.

                               Albert W. Lombardini

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Christophe Guetti » Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:27:15

|> [forwarded from IAIDO-L mailing list]
|>

Quote:
|> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
|> Date: 23 Mar 95 21:43:51 EST


|> Subject: Bayonet comment for list
|>
|>The art derived from techniques that visiting French military officers taught to the
|> Japanese in the late 1880's (I believe, I'm traveling, so can't check the
|> dates).

Some basic elements of bayonnet fencing as we practiced in the XVIIIth c is in the

"Encyclopedie Diderot D'alembert"
Volume "Arts Militaires"

Bayonnet Fencing was part of Master Weapon formation untill the beginning of
WWII.

Christophe Guettier.

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Christophe Guetti » Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:38:13

|> I would be interested to hear what the basic rules and fighting styles are.

In stick fencing, as it was practiced in the beginning of the century was
composed of two styles:

1) Le Baton

The origin of this technique is very old (before the middle age). It's a long
stick from 1.2 meter to 1.4 meter. You are fencing with two hands.
- Attack :  with two hands from the back. Targets are the same than in sabre (Tete,
figure, flanc, ventre). You can also attack with rotative movement.
- Parry  : with two hands as well, generally one on each bout, but not necessary.
- Rules  : Parry/Riposts/CounterAttack/CounterTime (P/R/CA/CT) are the same than in foil or
sabre. But, except for the "coup de bout" you have always an arming time.

2) La Canne

La canne has the same origin than le baton. It was well known at the XIIIth c.
to train young knigths. You are fencing with one hand.
- Attack: always with a rotative movement (similar to a Prime-Tete or
Hussarde-Tete, Quinte-Tete). The attack has an arming period as well. This notion
change the distance from a classical weapon like sabre.
- Parry : as you should do with a sabre. For the Quinte, you can parry with
two hands (one hand on each bout).
- Rules : The same as in foil or sabre : P/R/CA/CT. You can change the armed hand
during the assaut.

The technique of the Baton has disapeared, only the canne is still practiced in
France.

Christophe Guettier.

 
 
 

Bayonet fencing / Stick fencing

Post by Maurice Donner » Wed, 29 Mar 1995 20:37:20

Quote:

> In stick fencing, as it was practiced in the beginning of the century was
> composed of two styles: 1) Le Baton(...)2) La Canne(...)
>  The technique of the Baton has disapeared, only the canne is still practiced in
> France.
>  Christophe Guettier.

How do the Baton and Canne techniques you describe here compare to those as practiced
in 'la boxe Francaise'? In French boxing, according to a French encyclopedia of 1928,
both a baton and a canne technique were practised. For those who haven't got this book
at home I will put the relevant illustrations at the WEB page:

http://www.etp.phys.tue.nl/bertus/schermen.html

together with some other stick and bayonet fencing pictures (this page will be expanded
during the following weeks.

Maurice Donners