New FIE Fencing Mask

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Mario Martin » Mon, 06 May 1996 04:00:00


 On the FIE Web Page , I came across the picture of a new type of
fencing mask. Does anybody have any imformation on it. Let me know
Mario

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by TAYLO » Wed, 08 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>  On the FIE Web Page , I came across the picture of a new type of
> fencing mask. Does anybody have any imformation on it. Let me know
> Mario

Yes, the mask you saw was one of the new Lexan masks, a type of
"bullet_proof" material... neat stuff.  Such a mask is manufactured by
Zivkovic Fencing Supply:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~zivkovic/fencing.html.

There's lots more info on the mask at Zivkovic's web site...

Personally I don't know if I could get used to the "transparent" mask,
but I haven't tried so I can't know...

Has anyone tried one yet?

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by David W Neev » Thu, 09 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>>  On the FIE Web Page , I came across the picture of a new type of
>> fencing mask. Does anybody have any imformation on it. Let me know
>> Mario

> Yes, the mask you saw was one of the new Lexan masks, a type of
> "bullet_proof" material... neat stuff.  Such a mask is manufactured by
> Zivkovic Fencing Supply:
> http://SportToday.org/~zivkovic/fencing.html.

> There's lots more info on the mask at Zivkovic's web site...

        The mask shown in the FIE web site and the Zivkovic mask are
actually rather different. Zivkovic's mask is essentially a standard mesh
mask with the area around the eyes cut away and a Lexan plate mounted in
its place. The FIE mask appears to have a body made out of solid
fibreglass/plastic/whatever (I can't tell the material from a photo :-) )
with a Lexan face plate. I can imagine it must get awfully hot, as well
as looking like something from an old _Dr.Who_ episode ("Join the ***men
or die!").
        I have tried on one of the Zivkovic masks. It was reasonably
comfortable, but I did have one quibble with it (aside from the garish color
of the particular example I tested): the mounting bracket for the faceplate
leaves a black bar in your field of vision at about the level of the tip of
your nose (try holding a pencil or finger horizontally just in front of your
nose to get the effect), which partially obscures your view. If the faceplate
were just lengthened to the reach down to the level of the upper lip, the
problem would be solved.
        I have a clubmate who is a materials testing engineer who dislikes
the idea of Lexan faceplates because he feels that if one ever were to fail,
it would shatter completely, whereas with a metal mesh the failure would be
more gradual, and you would get some deformation which might at least offer
some resistance to stop a blade before complete failure. [Note that since
my areas of technical competence are controls systems and low density plasmas,
I can't vouch for how legitimate his concerns are.]

                        -Dave N.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Neevel        | Don't worry. I think I've got some duct tape

                    |                         Red Green
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Robert BLA » Fri, 10 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>...[dialogue omitted]...
>    I have a clubmate who is a materials testing engineer who dislikes
>the idea of Lexan faceplates because he feels that if one ever were to fail,
>it would shatter completely, whereas with a metal mesh the failure would be
>more gradual, and you would get some deformation which might at least offer
>some resistance to stop a blade before complete failure.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is essentially correct.  Also there is a question of 'aging' of
the Lexan and therefore potential for srtress fractures developing.
I certainly agree w/the 'Dr Who' space cadet analogy!

                        ROBERT BLACK
                       Salle Santelli
                      |}
              o====|>======================
                |___|}

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Paul Bouchier-Hay » Fri, 10 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
> On the FIE Web Page , I came across the picture of a new type of
>fencing mask. Does anybody have any imformation on it. Let me know
>Mario

You want to know about the new masks?

Well check out Paul's Fencing Page at

        http://www3.tcd.ie/~hbouchir/fencing/

And then go through the link to my 'New Masks' Page, I think you will
find it very enlightening.

--
        )                                                    (
     --/--)---            Paul Bouchier-Hayes           ---(--\--

     / /              http://www3.tcd.ie/~hbouchir            \ \

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by L dale Walt » Fri, 10 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
>>        I have a clubmate who is a materials testing engineer who dislikes
>>the idea of Lexan faceplates because he feels that if one ever were to
fail,
>>it would shatter completely, whereas with a metal mesh the failure
would be
>>more gradual, and you would get some deformation which might at least
offer
>>some resistance to stop a blade before complete failure.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

>This is essentially correct.  Also there is a question of 'aging' of
>the Lexan and therefore potential for srtress fractures developing.
>I certainly agree w/the 'Dr Who' space cadet analogy!

Not really.  In Paintball Lexan masks are used and they are much thinner
that the Zivkovic face plate.  Driving a screwdriver (phillips head)
through one of these is quite difficult.  Unless you were -really-
clueless, you are going to notice that there is something wrong with your
mask before a blade punches through, and replace the shield.

BTW:  I have the Red-White-Blue Star model of the Zivkovic Mask.  It is
really obnoxious, and I love it.

L. Dale Walter

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Tim Edwar » Sat, 11 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>with a Lexan face plate. I can imagine it must get awfully hot, as well
>as looking like something from an old _Dr.Who_ episode ("Join the ***men
>or die!").

There's actually a little battery-powered fan in there to keep it from
fogging up.  Exactly what every fencer needs, one more electrical
component to maintain!

Tim Edwards                              7, rue Albert I

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by John Husva » Mon, 13 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> > On the FIE Web Page , I came across the picture of a new type of
> >fencing mask. Does anybody have any imformation on it. Let me know
> >Mario

> You want to know about the new masks?

> Well check out Paul's Fencing Page at

>         http://SportToday.org/~hbouchir/fencing/

> And then go through the link to my 'New Masks' Page, I think you will
> find it very enlightening.

Okay...click the link...wait...Takes a while to load from Ireland.

Hmmmm. Nice page. What's this? Paul obviously has a slight(?!) bias
toward foilists. Ah, well. Chacun a' son gout. Hope he doesn't meet any
Sabreurs behind the pub though. Epeeists are more likely just to ignore
'im--or to see if they can make a light sabre^H^H^H^H^H epee from his
camera flash, an old garage door opener, and the scoring machine.
(That'll put some fleche on him, yessir!)

Now, where's that New Masks link?

Ah, there!

Now, how do I get the results of all that spluttering, giggling and
guffawing off my monitor?!?

Fellow has a warped sense of humo(u)r. I like him already.

Still chuckling,

Quote:

> --
>         )                                                    (
>      --/--)---            Paul Bouchier-Hayes           ---(--\--

>      / /              http://SportToday.org/~hbouchir            \ \

--
It's beat and bind and cut and thrust,/ It's eye and arm and breath./
It's brain and nerve and steel and ***,/ The swordsman's dance of
death.
                                     -- M. Longcor: The Swordsman
John Husvar   SCA: Johan Wagenfahrer the Cripple   Chet vinh hon song
nhuc
 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Si » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


>>...[dialogue omitted]...
>>        I have a clubmate who is a materials testing engineer who dislikes
>>the idea of Lexan faceplates because he feels that if one ever were to fail,
>>it would shatter completely, whereas with a metal mesh the failure would be
>>more gradual, and you would get some deformation which might at least offer
>>some resistance to stop a blade before complete failure.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This is essentially correct.  Also there is a question of 'aging' of
>the Lexan and therefore potential for srtress fractures developing.
>I certainly agree w/the 'Dr Who' space cadet analogy!

>                        ROBERT BLACK
>                       Salle Santelli
>                      |}
>              o====|>======================
>                |___|}

There are other issues that a lexan mask address that a metal mask won't,
namely mesh bursting. Cranfield university is doing work on Knife-proof vests
for police forces here in the U.K. Bullet-Proof vests will diperse the force
from a bullet but will alow a lower energy point weapon trough easily enough
(came as a bit of a surprise to me too until I saw them testing one of the
things). What is happening is that the mesh of the vest is pushed aside by the
point and then cut, even the kevlar. The knives did not require much of an edge
either. I know that maraging blades are supposed to break cleanly, when ever
mine broke it sure as hell wasn't a clean one. So I assume that tthe shape of
the break will lagely depend on wether the blade is under any torsional loads
at fracture. And a cursory look at hits in most competitions will show that
blades will most likely be under a such a load. So it is concievable that a
supposedly safe-break weapon will give a spike on the end. And with all a
fencers momentum behind it may still push aside the mesh as in the Smirnof
incedent even though the modern masks are stronger. The only real solution is a
full face-plate that lexan would offer. As for the aging aspects of the stuff,
most people have flown in aircraft with windows that age far less gracefully
than lexan, these are replaced every couple of years, as can be done with the
new faceplates.  I'm not sure of the exact composition of the lexan masks but
if they are any thing like the motorbike stuff then they have a soft-plastic
core to prevent a shatter failure in a similar way to a car windscreen. While
it might just be conceivable that the blade would subsequently puncture the
mask, it would have to have a hell of a lot of energy (I may work it out
later!) since quite a bit would be dispersed by the hazing of the mask.

Personally I don't much care for the designs, the American design lookslike an
interim solution with the lexan strip. The franco/german effort has a more
complete design but looks a bit funny. Still I live in hope that they may
actually become affordable since the visibility advantage sounds like something
worht having.
--

Simon Hyde                                       ____      _____     _____      
Power,propulsion and Automotive Engineering,    /:  :\    |: : :|   |: :_ :\
School of Mechanical Engineering.              | :/\__|   |: :__|   |: | \ :|
Cranfield University.                          |;;|       |;;|_     |;;| |;;|
Beds. MK43 8AL. United Kingdom.                |$$|       |$$$$]    |$$| |$$|
tel: +(01234) 754764                           |##| __    |##|      |##| |##|
fax: +(01234) 750728                           \##\/##|   |##|      |##|_/##/
"Laugh?..I ***y cried!"                     \#####/   |##|      |######/
(Criminally Flawed by Design)                    =====  O ====  O   =======  O

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Paul Bouchier-Hay » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>Hmmmm. Nice page. What's this? Paul obviously has a slight(?!) bias
>toward foilists.

Hmmmm, foil is my least favourite weapon actualy, must be reverse
biasism in effect.

Quote:
>Fellow has a warped sense of humo(u)r. I like him already.

Why thankyou, I try hard.....

--
        )                                                    (
     --/--)---            Paul Bouchier-Hayes           ---(--\--

     / /              http://www3.tcd.ie/~hbouchir            \ \

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Roger Boo » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00

<Snip about advantages of lexan>

Quote:
> As for the aging aspects of the stuff,
> most people have flown in aircraft with windows that age far less gracefully
> than lexan, these are replaced every couple of years, as can be done with the
> new faceplates.

Ah, but there's the problem.  With aircraft you keep service logs and when
the inspector shows up you can show when the last replacement was done.
If you do this with masks people won't replace the lexan.

Roger
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

No good deed goes unpunished.
                -- Clare Boothe Luce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by John Hasl » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
Roger writes:
> Ah, but there's the problem.  With aircraft you keep service logs and when
> the inspector shows up you can show when the last replacement was done.
> If you do this with masks people won't replace the lexan.

Perhaps you could put a photosensitive dye in the Lexan so that it would
become cloudy before getting brittle.
--

John Hasler                This posting is in the public domain.

Dancing Horse Hill         Make money from it if you can; I don't mind.
Elmwood, Wisconsin

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by John Simut » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00

: There are other issues that a lexan mask address that a metal mask won't,
: namely mesh bursting. Cranfield university is doing work on Knife-proof vests
: for police forces here in the U.K. Bullet-Proof vests will diperse the force
: from a bullet but will alow a lower energy point weapon trough easily enough
: (came as a bit of a surprise to me too until I saw them testing one of the
: things). What is happening is that the mesh of the vest is pushed aside by the
: point and then cut, even the kevlar. The knives did not require much of an edge
: either.

This has been widely known for some time; police vests usually include
a 'trauma plate' of titanium in a pocket over the heart, to provide
additional protection from bullets, and the only protection from knives,
ice picks, and other *** things.

Since this has been known for so long - late 60's, at least - why is it
that FIE clothing is Kevlar-armored?  Kevlar seems unable to do the job
asked of it in protecting from broken blades.

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Morgan Bur » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

|> : Bullet-Proof vests will diperse the force
|> : from a bullet but will alow a lower energy point weapon trough easily
[snip]
|>
|> Since this has been known for so long - late 60's, at least - why is it
|> that FIE clothing is Kevlar-armored?  Kevlar seems unable to do the job
|> asked of it in protecting from broken blades.

The FIE is obviously assuming that blades will break to a blunt stump,
which is why maraging steel or equivalent is supposed to be used in
conjunction with Kevlar.

-- Morgan Burke

 
 
 

New FIE Fencing Mask

Post by Si » Wed, 22 May 1996 04:00:00

<snip>

Quote:

>> As for the aging aspects of the stuff,
>> most people have flown in aircraft with windows that age far less gracefully
>> than lexan, these are replaced every couple of years, as can be done with the
>> new faceplates.

>Ah, but there's the problem.  With aircraft you keep service logs and when
>the inspector shows up you can show when the last replacement was done.
>If you do this with masks people won't replace the lexan.

>Roger

But in common with most polymers I bet lexan creeps so a simple scruitaneering
test can be arranged where the faceplate thicknesses at the top and bottom are
compared. Too big a difference and no-go! (BTW Aircraft inspectors are a hoary
old bunch not much given to beliving paperwork. So they tend to physically
check too.)

Si.