Sport Today

:  
: > Nononononono. The feint can BECOME a full attack if it is not
: > parried, but it is not an attack in itself because a feint implies
: > that you are going to change lines after it. OK, so if you start a
: > feint, and your opponant attacks you, you have the right to continue
: > your feinted attack, but if you don't, you lose the right of way (if
: > you do, it wasn't a feint)
: >
: > OK... am I wrong?

: As far as I have been told, you are correct, which means simply that you have
: to feint to an *open* line so as to draw the parry. If your opponent does not
: buy the feint, then you have a recourse. Other than that...you're screwed.

: I guess my big question with this thread is: How can a compound attack that is
: attacked into retain right-of-way? Say A attacks B. B clearly starts after A.
: A changes line and scores; B scores. By my way of thinking, the call is
:       "Attack from A. Counterattack from B."

: From what Andrew Mullhaupt has been saying, his call is: "On preparation from
: A, B attacks. Counterattack from A."

: Is it the case that in order to beat a compound attack, all you need do is
: launch a counter-attack after the change of line?

: Vince

I guess you mean _before_ the change of line, but in either case the answer is NO.

        Therefore, when there is not a period of fencing time between the touches:
        1.  Only the fencer who is attacked is counted as touched if
        (a) he makes a stop hit on his opponetns simple attack;

        (d) during a composed attack, he makes a stop hit without being in time.

So you must land on at least one period of fencing time before your opponent.  
For Example:
        Fencer A attacks with three disengagements - ie a 1-2-3.
        To score with a stop-hit, the Fencer B must land either on movement 1 or 2
        always before the start of the third action.

It does not matter when B start only when s/he lands. A has the right of way during the
whole attack.  

Second intention is a differnent matter.  If you are trying to draw out an attack, you
are obviously not trying to hit anything and so are not the attack.

You can of course do something which looks like an attack but isn't this is called
"conning the president" or " execellent fencing" depending on which side of the call
you are on.
: >
: > >David.
: > SMnsioio

        David.

: >which means simply that you have
: >to feint to an *open* line so as to draw the parry. If your opponent does not
: >buy the feint, then you have a recourse. Other than that...you're screwed.

: The important question in right of way is _usually_ who starts first, but
: in order to determine if there is a fencing tempo between B's hit and
: A's hit, the test is whether A has already started the final action
: when B hits. Since A's final action is _simple_ (this defines what
: final action' means) there is one fencing tempo _defined_ by the start
: of A's final action and his hit. In order for there to be a fencing
: tempo between B's hit and A's hit, B's hit must arrive _before_ A's
: final action starts. Note that A must correctly execute. Since your
: situation seems to indicate that B scores _after_ A changes line, the call
: is 'attack from A, counterattack from B'. Of course this means it is A's
: touch.

: >Is it the case that in order to beat a compound attack, all you need do is
: >launch a counter-attack after the change of line?

: No. You have to _land_ the counterattack before the final action starts.
: And I will point out that even in foil, you can make compound attacks which
: do not have changes in line. This is the reason the rules do not say
: 'change in line' as opposed to 'final action', which they _do_ say.

: I think some people have misunderstood what I have been saying about
: feints being preparation. They are. But the final action of a compound attack
: is _not_ a preparation. So this is why in order to stop hit in time,
: you have to hit while the opponent is still 'in preparation', i.e. while
           ^^^^^^^^^
: he is still feinting. Once he starts his real (final) attack, stop hits are
: too late since the opponent is no longer in preparation. It's really
: quite simple, but if you find it confusiong, remember that there is _no_
: need to talk about preparation at all in directing. The idea of 'preparation'

: is well defined fencing parlance, and important if you want to talk about
: or even think about what goes on in a bout. But it has no effect in the
: rules. The rules say what attacks are, what stop hits are, and what parries
: are. Strictly speaking, this is all you need to know.

I think that here we have the problem.  If the counter attacker HITS on any of the
feints preceeding the final action then yes, he is in time.  My interpretation of
your previous posts was that B only had to LAUNCH the action.  

You use "PREPARATION" in a different way to me. For me, a preparation is not part
of the attack, so there is no obligation on B to hit "IN TIME" ie B is the attack
and has right of way.  But a feint is part of a (composed) attack an so requires
B to land a period before.

So takings, invitaions, steps forward ( or backward) with a bent arm are all
preparation.  
Feints are not.

Note not all extenstion of the point are feints.
        I'll be annoyed if we turn out to be agreeing all this time.
        DAVID.
: Later,
: Andrew Mullhaupt