Rules Questions: Saber Crossovers

Rules Questions: Saber Crossovers

Post by HaroldBu » Mon, 20 Mar 1995 07:26:48


At my club today, we had an interesting discussion about the rules about
saber crossovers.

One person was essentially fleching, but he claimed that--because his
touches were landing before his feet crossed--he wasn't crossing over
while the bout was in progress.

I argued that he was committing to an action which required the crossing
of the feet in order to score, so his actions were certainly in violation
of the spirit of the rules and probably in violation of the letter of the
rules.

The same question arose about off balance lunges that end with the
crossing of the feet after the touch.

Lastly, it was my impression that the rules do not prohibit backward
crossovers. Does anyone know for certain?

Thanks.

-Harold Buck

The opinions expressed here are not
necessarily those of my employer. Since
I am self-employed, this means these
opinions are not necessarily my own.

 
 
 

Rules Questions: Saber Crossovers

Post by Sasha Zuck » Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:10:35


Quote:

> At my club today, we had an interesting discussion about the rules about
> saber crossovers.

> One person was essentially fleching, but he claimed that--because his
> touches were landing before his feet crossed--he wasn't crossing over
> while the bout was in progress.

> I argued that he was committing to an action which required the crossing
> of the feet in order to score, so his actions were certainly in violation
> of the spirit of the rules and probably in violation of the letter of the
> rules.

> The same question arose about off balance lunges that end with the
> crossing of the feet after the touch.

> Lastly, it was my impression that the rules do not prohibit backward
> crossovers. Does anyone know for certain?

1) That one person is wrong. If crossing feet is a yellow card offense.

2) same deal with the lunge.

3) Rules state, I believe, that the back foot cannot be in front of the
back foot.

-sasha

 
 
 

Rules Questions: Saber Crossovers

Post by AMullhau » Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:21:42

Quote:

>At my club today, we had an interesting discussion about the rules about
>saber crossovers.
>One person was essentially fleching, but he claimed that--because his
>touches were landing before his feet crossed--he wasn't crossing over
>while the bout was in progress.

No, he can't get away with that.

Quote:
>I argued that he was committing to an action which required the crossing
>of the feet in order to score, so his actions were certainly in violation
>of the spirit of the rules and probably in violation of the letter of the
>rules.

The fleche, and the crossover advance are prohibited. Of course, you _can_
do them while the bout is not in progress, but the bout is still in
progress unless at least fencing tempo separates the action which scores
from the violation.

Suppose one fencer attacks slowly, and his opponent counterattacks and
hits before the original attack arrives. Is the original attack annulled
because it arrives "while the bout is not in progress"? Not at all! The
original attack (and the bout) are still in progress. So it is clear that
the fact that a hit arrives does not immunize a fencer from all subsequent
events.

Quote:
> The same question arose about off balance lunges that end with the
> crossing of the feet after the touch.

It depends on how much longer after the touch the feet cross. Basically,
if the lunge is held long enough after the Halt, then it isn't important
how you recover from it. But if the feet cross because the fencer cannot
keep his balance otherwise, the yellow card is certainly on the way.

Quote:
> Lastly, it was my impression that the rules do not prohibit backward
> crossovers. Does anyone know for certain?

Backward crossovers are OK. The rule prohibits crossing one foot from in
back of the other to in front of it. Backwards is fine. Just make sure
that if you crossover retreat, and then change your mind, you don't
"uncross" your feet, which _would_ violate the rule.

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

P. S. I can understand why the fencer in your club would like to be able
to fleche, etc., but that is not going to work. As long as the rule
stands, it has to be observed, no matter how stupid it is.

 
 
 

Rules Questions: Saber Crossovers

Post by George Edward Kolombatovic » Tue, 21 Mar 1995 06:11:54


Quote:
> One person was essentially fleching, but he claimed that--because his
> touches were landing before his feet crossed--he wasn't crossing over
> while the bout was in progress.
> I argued that he was committing to an action which required the crossing
> of the feet in order to score, so his actions were certainly in violation
> of the spirit of the rules and probably in violation of the letter of the
> rules.

A movement, in sabre, that results in the forward crossing of the feet is
illegal. Period.

Quote:
> Lastly, it was my impression that the rules do not prohibit backward
> crossovers. Does anyone know for certain?

The rule clearly states "forward."  Crossing over while going backward is
allowed.  (Darn, I can see it now -- the postings to r.s.f. about "what if
you take a half crossover backwards and then put your normal forward foot
in front of your normal rear foot while attacking . . ."  The rule is
clear:  You may not make cross your feet in any manner while going
forward.)

George Kolombatovich