Beach 4-Person Professionals

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Daryl Odne » Sat, 16 Jul 1994 03:27:08



Quote:
> On the other hand, whenever I come across four man on TV (while channel
> surfing 'cause I sure don't stay and watch), I think, "Beach volleyball
> for those who can't cut it in two man".  Yuck.

I wonder if your statement is true or not.  It seems to me that most
of the players on the 4-person tour could be fairly successful on the
doubles tour.

However, I think there is less of a financial risk for the players on
the 4-person tour.  My understanding is that the players on the 4-person
tour are under contract and are guaranteed a certain amount of money just
for playing.  On the other hand, the folks on the doubles tour only get
paid if they place high enough in a given tournament.  Please let me
know if I'm wrong about this.

My point is that I don't think that the 4-person tour is made up of
people who "can't cut it" in doubles.  Instead, it is made up of players
who prefer the guaranteed income of the 4-person tour vs the financial
uncertainty of the doubles circuit.  Undoubtedly, there must be some
players who figure they probably can't cut it playing doubles
so they play 4-person, but I would guess this is a small minority.
Perhaps Dan Hanan can comment on this?

Daryl Odnert

Hewlett-Packard Co.
Cupertino, California

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Tom Ja » Sat, 16 Jul 1994 06:32:57

: My point is that I don't think that the 4-person tour is made up of
: people who "can't cut it" in doubles.  Instead, it is made up of players
: who prefer the guaranteed income of the 4-person tour vs the financial
: uncertainty of the doubles circuit.  Undoubtedly, there must be some
: players who figure they probably can't cut it playing doubles
: so they play 4-person, but I would guess this is a small minority.
: Perhaps Dan Hanan can comment on this?

The two person game is more demanding on the court, and off the court.
In order to be competitive on the AVP tour these days, you have to spend
alot of time training.  The 4-person game requires less training time.

It can also be harder to get into the AVP tour than the 4-person tour.
You need to qualify, and/or have points to play on the AVP tour.
The 4-person tour only requires that you are drafted to play.

In the 4-person game you can "hide" players who don't have certain skills.
In doubles there is no hiding.

Some players on the 4-person tour could compete on the AVP tour.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tom Jack                                                 o
Software Engineer/Volleyball Coach   |                     \ |

408/447-4239                       ||-+-+-+-+-+-+o+-+-+-+-J-+-||
Hewlett-Packard                    ||==O========<O>=======/\==||
19447 Pruneridge Ave, 44UB         ||  T\o       A        \ \ ||
Cupertino, CA  95014-9913          || / )       ( )           ||
--------------------------    -----------------------------------

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Doyen T. Kle » Sun, 17 Jul 1994 08:49:37

Quote:

>In order to be competitive on the AVP tour these days, you have to spend
>alot of time training.  The 4-person game requires less training time.

It does require people who can put away the ball with two additional
people on the opposing court, seems like that would require
a higher skill level.   All good indoor players know that any
dufus can get a kill on a 30 x 30 court with only two people
there, just dink it were they aint!....  With four people you
can't get away with those easy / cheap shots

Quote:
>In the 4-person game you can "hide" players who don't have certain skills.
>In doubles there is no hiding.

The truth is that teams that win, can't afford to have players that
they need to hide, this is true in any sport.

Quote:
>Some players on the 4-person tour could compete on the AVP tour.

Yeh, and some of those AVP players would have a hard time
trying to play 6 man wouldn't hey?

If you want my 2cents (which I'm reasonably sure you don't) the
most macho of all vball forms is two person co-ed, but I
really like them all, and want them all to be successfull.

Maybe I should change my sig to 'The Pollyanna of Volleyball' :-)

--
.dtk - Roadkill on the information superhighway.

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Dan Han » Sat, 23 Jul 1994 00:28:16

I don't have the previous articles to include here, but I can comment
on what I read yesterday...

I DEFINITELY do NOT think that the 4-man game is for the "rejects"
from the 2-man tour.  There are all kinds of players on our tour -
indoor players from the National/Olympic team, collegiate players,
and even players who have previously played on the 2-man AVP tour
and opted to come over to the 4-man - not as rejects!!  (Rudy
Dvorak, Roger Clark, Wally Goodrick, etc.)

The time commitment mentioned in a previous post is one of the major
reasons why players go for the 4-man tour right now.  This is the
perfect setup for me - allowing me to hold down a full time programming
job, while I train and play all summer on the tour.  We have off    
weekends throughout the summer that allow us to catch up on our
life outside of volleyball.

As for the skill set...what do you think would be harder??  Put a ball
away in a 30 by 30 court with one blocker and one digger, or against
TWO blockers and TWO diggers?  I think that's obvious.  I think blocking
in 4-man requires a lot more skill than in 2-man.  In 2-man, you know
where the set is going, and when, so you get setup in front of the
hitter, and block.  In 4-man, you have 3 hitters running all sorts of
"indoor" hitting patterns, and a setter not showing you where he's
going with the ball until it leaves his hands.  

I could go on for a while - but you get the idea.  For those who say
that 4-man players are the 2-man players that couldn't hack it, you
are just showing your ignorance for the sport.  
Don't think that just because the 2-man game is _currently_ more
popular, there are better or more skilled players out there!!

Laters..
--
Take Care.                 - Dan
------------------------------------------------
Dan Hanan             Programmer / Vball Player  

------------------------------------------------
(Opinions expressed are mine only, and do not reflect those of SAIC)

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by a.. » Fri, 22 Jul 1994 21:32:02

[Dan Hanan's comments deleted since everybody reads his posts]
Quote:
> ------------------------------------------------
> Dan Hanan             Programmer / Vball Player  

> ------------------------------------------------

I've played a lot of volleyball indoor 6's, sand 4's and 2's at the A level
and basically I think the different games suit different players (Karch
Kiraly excepted of course). The two man beach game requires very good basic
skills hitting, passing/defense, and setting and obviously the stronger you
serve the better. However beach 4's and indoor 6's requires very good
 advanced skills in 2 of the 3. For instance of the AVP teams only the
Brazilians run 2-sets or shoot-sets with any regularity primarily because
it is not suited to the 2-man game so it is not executed as well as say
Dusty Dvorak to Craig Buck since the 1 or 2-set is Craig's main weapon.
Another example is the year Il Massigero (sp?) came over to play in Team
Cup volleyball here in L.A. Basically they totally dominated the teams of
AVP players primarily because their team work and specialized indoor skills
were better.
So, the upshot of all this is that each type of game requires different
skills and requires that the skills be performed at different levels of
complexity.
One reason Karch Kiraly is so good other that his incredible mental focus
on a game is that he set in high school and at UCLA, he was a primary
passer and swing hitter on Team USA and he has grown up playing vb on the
beach. He has very well developed passing, setting and hitting skills beyond
most AVP, Bud lite or national team indoor players.

Anyway this was not as coherent as I would have liked but I think I've got
my point across.

Alex Lee
skills (2 out of

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Michael Sulliv » Wed, 27 Jul 1994 02:51:15

Quote:

> and even players who have previously played on the 2-man AVP tour
> and opted to come over to the 4-man - not as rejects!!  (Rudy
> Dvorak, Roger Clark, Wally Goodrick, etc.)

Not exactly two-man superstars, either.

Quote:
> As for the skill set...what do you think would be harder??  Put a ball
> away in a 30 by 30 court with one blocker and one digger, or against
> TWO blockers and TWO diggers?  I think that's obvious.  I think blocking

Digging a ball by yourself in a 30x30 court sounds harder.  Blocking by
yourself.  Hitting when the blocker knows exactly where you're going to be.
Receiving jump serves when there are only two of you.  All these sound
harder.

--

Walt Disney Feature Animation        +1 818 544 2683 (voice)
Glendale, CA                         +1 818 544 4579 (fax)

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Eric Wa » Wed, 27 Jul 1994 04:33:33

Quote:

>> ... what do you think would be harder??  Put a ball away in a 30 by
>> 30 court with one blocker and one digger, or against TWO blockers and
>> TWO diggers?

>Digging a ball by yourself in a 30x30 court sounds harder.  Blocking by
>yourself.

    Which implies that you agree that hitting is *easier* in the 2-man
    game, since it's harder for defenders to stop the hits.

Quote:
>Hitting when the blocker knows exactly where you're going to be.

    But it's even worse in the 4-man game: you still have one blocker
    who always knows exactly where you're going to be, and a second
    blocker is always coming over to help.  (That second blocker is
    somebody unreasonable, too, like Hanan or Buck or Salmons -- each of
    them roughly at the level of a Whitmarsh.)  Consider: if the 4-man
    offense is *successful* in its goal of isolating its hitters 1-on-1,
    that's still the same 1-on-1 situation as in the 2-man game.  So
    4-man hitter-blocker confrontations *reduce* to 2-man __in the best
    case__.

    How's this: hitting when you know there's only one defender behind
    the block, so you can just place a shot where he ain't and he won't
    even bother to turn his head to watch it land.  This tactic doesn't
    work as well when there are 2 diggers behind the block.  So hitters
    in the 4-man game are *always* at a disadvantage compared to those
    in the 2-man game: they have to hit against just as many blockers,
    if not more, and they don't have the luxury of resorting to shots to
    save bad sets.

Quote:
>Receiving jump serves when there are only two of you.

    From what I've seen, most 4-man teams use just 2 passers, also.
    Again, no real difference.  In fact, I'd thing that 4-man passing is
    more demanding because passers must deliver more accurate passes to
    feed the quick middle attack in order to reduce their own
    confrontations to just 1 blocker.

Quote:
>All these sound harder.

    OK, by skill, the game that is harder to play, in terms of technical
    skill required, IMHO:

        Digging:        2-man.  As noted, you is all alone back there.

        Blocking:       2-man > 4-man OH: no help coming across, can't
                        rely as much on the defense behind you.

                        4-man MB > 2-man: 'nuff said.  (Hi, Dan :-)

        Setting:        4-man.  You *must* hand-set, and run an offense.

        Hitting:        4-man.  Lower, faster sets, against more
                        blockers and more diggers.

        Serving:        Toss-up.  (ha ha, get it?)
        Passing:        4-man.  Must deliver pinpoint passes for the
                        middle attack.

        Endurance:      2-man.  Gotta run, can't hide.

Eric Wang

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Doyen T. Kle » Wed, 27 Jul 1994 11:12:55

Quote:


>> As for the skill set...what do you think would be harder??  Put a ball
>> away in a 30 by 30 court with one blocker and one digger, or against
>> TWO blockers and TWO diggers?  I think that's obvious.  I think blocking
>Digging a ball by yourself in a 30x30 court sounds harder.  Blocking by
>yourself.  Hitting when the blocker knows exactly where you're going to be.
>Receiving jump serves when there are only two of you.  All these sound
>harder.

Well Micheal, it's obvious you're a big doubles fan, and Eric Wang
has posted a bunch of retorts to this 'harder to hit vs harder to dig'
controversy.

I have played many tournaments at a pretty high level in both
2's, 4's and 6's, indoors and out - but I don't think you are going
to just lay down and admit I'm right just because I say so, so how
about this argument to convince you.....

4 man was started, and numerous changes made to the 2 man beach game
because it was basically a long side-out affair,

It may be true as you say, that to dig with only two guys on the
court is harder, but then let's count the rallys, in fact
digging doesn't happen in two man as often, that's what the
4 man game is trying to provide, longer rallys.  Let's have
some impartial judges start to count rallies, ball touches
hand / quick sets, the elements that appeal to the crowd.

I also think that the reason 2 man players have gone to the jump
serve, is that it reflects the effort to win the 'quick' point.

Is not jump serving more effective on beach than indoor (stats?)

Let's compare length of rallies, average time a player or team
touches the ball, and determine which sports are more fun to
watch for the spectator.

As I've said before, the skill it takes to get to the top of
any flavor sport, 2man, 6man, tiddlewinks, to win it all, you've
got to be the best.  Are you one of those people who thinks that
Micheal Jordon could dominate volleyball???

What would the ref's do when Mike Tyson argued a call??

Why doesn't someone ask Karch which is harder to play?
BTW the ESPN announcer Chris Marlow did pretty well at both
beach and indoors....
(Or was that Prime Ticket?)

--
.dtk - Roadkill on the information superhighway.

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by hsd.. » Wed, 27 Jul 1994 15:49:53


Quote:

>I DEFINITELY do NOT think that the 4-man game is for the "rejects"
>from the 2-man tour.  There are all kinds of players on our tour -
>indoor players from the National/Olympic team, collegiate players,
>and even players who have previously played on the 2-man AVP tour
>and opted to come over to the 4-man - not as rejects!!  (Rudy
>Dvorak, Roger Clark, Wally Goodrick, etc.)

  etc..

        Dan is right. Maybe 4-man doesn't have as many individual heroes
because it is much more "team" oriented. Definitely alot more thinking going
on in that game, too. No easy gimmes there. You have put the ball away and
volleys are much more exciting.
        Don't get me wrong, I love playing 2's more than 4's because I feel
more part of the action, but watching the pro's do it right is a blast. In fact
I'm catching AVP/Lite Pro-beach 2's in Belmar NJ this weekend. Should be a
blast !!!

                                -later
                                        Sanat

 
 
 

Beach 4-Person Professionals

Post by Scott Jeffrey Markows » Sun, 07 Aug 1994 00:33:05


Quote:

>    OK, by skill, the game that is harder to play, in terms of technical
>    skill required, IMHO:

>    Digging:        2-man.  As noted, you is all alone back there.

>    Blocking:       2-man > 4-man OH: no help coming across, can't
>                    rely as much on the defense behind you.

>                    4-man MB > 2-man: 'nuff said.  (Hi, Dan :-)

>    Setting:        4-man.  You *must* hand-set, and run an offense.

>    Hitting:        4-man.  Lower, faster sets, against more
>                    blockers and more diggers.

>    Serving:        Toss-up.  (ha ha, get it?)
>    Passing:        4-man.  Must deliver pinpoint passes for the
>                    middle attack.

>    Endurance:      2-man.  Gotta run, can't hide.

I agree with most of what you say. The only thing I might add
is that in 2's, you are often in transition from one skill
set to another.  Meaning you have to pass then come in and
hit or you might be waiting to receive a serve and then have
to set the ball instead.  Sometimes this is true in 4's but
not as often.  Anyway this can really mess some players
up, even players at high levels.

Personally, I would be more than happy if I was a good enough
player to play on either tour.   Oh, well one can dream...

Scott Marks

// Opinions/statements above are mine and not necessarily those
// of my employer