2 Person / 3 person Receive

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Michael David Ber » Sat, 02 Aug 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I noticed
>a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could someone
>email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
>That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all the
>rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
>greatly appreciate it.

Marty,

I think that I have something which will be useful for you.  Look at:

http://www.ce.gatech.edu/Students/M.Bertz/Vball/Instruction/Passing/p...

While I haven't updated my instructional information in a long time
(I'm going to try and get the setting and hitting stuff done in time
for HS and JO seasons, we'll see, PhD first), this information from
the passing section should help.

Note that there are PostScript files of the passing charts available
which look better when printed.

Quote:
>PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr high
>aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

I would advise caution in using a 2-person receive with younger kids
if they will have difficulty covering the entire court or if you see lots
of tough serves.  Don't get me wrong; I like the 2-person system.  But
see if you've got horses to make it go. :)  Also, even if you are using
only a few passers in games, be sure to spend some time developing the
passing skills of your whole team.  They may not always have someone
else to do the passing for them :)

Michael

--
Michael Bertz
Georgia Institute of Technology

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by JerryG28 » Sat, 02 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Marty--I would be careful with 2 and 3 person receives with 14 and under
kids. Good ones can do it--some of the Div. I teams in the stronger
regions use it effectively. Div. One teams in So Cal (and Illinois, and
Texas and Washington, etc!!) are very good and very experienced even at
age 14. Even among these teams there isn't that much specialization--there
is an obligation in coaching kids that age to develop all skills in all
players (I realize that in actual matches you, the coach, sometimes feel
that the grim reaper of volleyball sometimes has his hand on your shoulder
when little Susie is at left back!!). The actual design of two/three
systems isn't too difficult--just keep the overlap rules in mind--you can
come up with some really wierd setups! Good Luck--Jerry Gregg

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Marty11 » Sat, 02 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I noticed
a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could someone
email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all the
rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
greatly appreciate it.

PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr high
aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

Thanks
Marty

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Marty11 » Sun, 03 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Jerry,

Thanks for the input.  Be assured I will never stop developing the basic
skills of the kids.  I spend so much time on the basics on a daily basis.
I wanted to get a real feel for these systems for a couple of reasons.
One, to expose the kids to different schemes and two, a wise friend of
mine once told me that when things are going bad ...... change something.
I just wanted to have a couple of things we could change to.

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by MattUS » Sun, 03 Aug 1997 04:00:00

I want to put my two cents in for limiting specialization with less
experienced players.  I also think it is in the players best interest to
teach them all skills, to make them volleyball PLAYERS.  It is also
comforting as a coach for your "middle" to set that off pass, or your
"setter" to jump and hit a set that came their way.  And for those players
to feel good about making that play.
The one thing I will say about passing is that most problems passing come
from the balls that are served to "seams" between players.  The more
people that pass the more seams you have, the more chances for "Was that
my ball?"  In my opinion the question is are your players big and quick
enough to cover the court with 2, or with 3.  If so your team will be more
successful with less seams.  I would vote for passing with 3 for instance
but letting all players have their opportunity to pass in rotations.  Let
them pass, that is the only way they will learn to pass.
Matt McShane
Assistant Coach, USA Women's National Volleyball Team

(719) 637-8300

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Michael Lehner » Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:00:00


Quote:
>Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I noticed
>a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could someone
>email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
>That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all the
>rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
>greatly appreciate it.

It's really easy to keep the same 2 or 3 people passing every
rotation.  The key to it is to understand overlapping and to have
quick passers and a quick setter.

Generally, it is easier when you have two passers to stay in rotation,
but the two passers have to cover a lot of court.  The two outside
hitters would pass, or the opposite and outside (farthest away) would
pass.  You need to move the middles and setter around a little to get
out of the way of the passers.

If you want to pull a third passer in (OP or OH), you just slide that
person into the passing scheme.

Draw it out on paper, with all 6 rotations and move your people around
until the two/three passers are in position.  Then, slide your other
players on the court, keeping them in rotation.

Quote:
>PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr high
>aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

Then again, I am not sure how many 13/4 year olds are going to be fast
enough to do this kind of serve-receive.

- Mike Lehnertz

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Marty11 » Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:00:00

I want to thank everyone who has given me their input.  .  Of the 3  teams
I am coaching I can only say that one of them has the personnel that could
run a 2-man passing system and only then on a very good day.  I agree with
you that the only way for these kids to get better at passing is to
actually PASS the ball.

Based on the diagrams that Michael Bertz has on his instruction site, I
decided that the best system for me to use is the 3-man passing system
(everyone), where all players pass the ball when they are in the back row.

Thanks again everyone

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Tord Inghamma » Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I noticed
> a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could someone
> email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
> That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all the
> rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
> greatly appreciate it.

> PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr high
> aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

> Thanks
> Marty

The problem with 2-3 person receiving is that when they are so young
they are usually not big enough to cover the whole court.
To play a 2 receving system (we play a 2? person system) your two
recevers must cover the court in 2 (THATS TWO) steps or they will be
aced, they also must learn to read the serv very, very early.
As far as I know the 2/3 reception was introduced in the early 80s but
abandoned to any greater extent after the 1984 olympics when blocking
the serv was made elegal.
Your advantadge with a 2/3 pers reception is that your poorer serv re.
may be hidden and not used as targets by your opponents server, we use
this system to let our new players that are not experienced enough to
recive play MB while our OH go swing hitting.
This however depends upon the quality of your opponants serv.
Totte.
 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Michael David Ber » Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:00:00


  [ discussion of 2 / 3 person serve-receive snipped ]

In general, I feel that Tord's analysis of the pros and cons of such
a system was pretty much right on, especially about the speed
required of passers when there are only 2 of them.  Of course, the
idea that the passer should be able to cover the court in two steps
is heavily influenced by the kinds of jump serves that his team likely
sees, which of course will apply less at the younger and more
inexperienced levels.....  The important point is that whether or not
such a system should be considered is going to depend on what kind of
offense a team is looking to run, what kind of passing talent is
available, and what kind of serves they're likely to face.

The piece of Tord's post which I have contention with is this:

Quote:
>As far as I know the 2/3 reception was introduced in the early 80s but
>abandoned to any greater extent after the 1984 olympics when blocking
>the serv was made elegal.

I don't agree with this statement.  Yes, the 2-man system came about
in the early 80's, but it was not 'abandoned' until much later, in the
early 90's, when the jump serve had become much more of a weapon.
Case in point:  Kiraly and Ctvrtlik's passing helped the USA win that
gold in Seoul in 88, using a 2-man system.  In fact, the USA was still
using 2 primary passers up through Barcelona and Atlanta, though, quite
assuredly, they're adding a 3rd passer as required for today's jumpserves.
I would say that many European club teams still use some variation of
the 2/3 person system (e.g., Kiraly w/ Il Messagero a few years back...
again, this is something of a result of the factors pointed out above:
personnel, offense, serves).

I don't know a ton about other international men's teams, but for a
while many of these also used a variation of the 2/3 man system.  Lately,
I think that it's a safe statement that amongst many top European teams,
you have a lot more players who pass in any given rotation, as opposed to
a few specialists.

Enough nitpicking by me.

Michael

--
Michael Bertz
Georgia Institute of Technology

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Teron U » Wed, 06 Aug 1997 04:00:00



Quote:

>   [ discussion of 2 / 3 person serve-receive snipped ]

> In general, I feel that Tord's analysis of the pros and cons of such
> a system was pretty much right on, especially about the speed
> required of passers when there are only 2 of them.  Of course, the
> idea that the passer should be able to cover the court in two steps
> is heavily influenced by the kinds of jump serves that his team likely
> sees, which of course will apply less at the younger and more
> inexperienced levels.....  The important point is that whether or not
> such a system should be considered is going to depend on what kind of
> offense a team is looking to run, what kind of passing talent is
> available, and what kind of serves they're likely to face.

I agree more with the "what kind of passing talent is available" and "what
kind of serves they're likely to face" but I don't necessarily agree with
"what kind of offense a team is going to run".

My philosophy on this (plagarized from Neville's coaches clinics), is that
you want to setup a system which exposes your best passers.  Likewise,
you would like to hide your weakest passers.  I feel that you can apply
that principle regardless of the system you run.

I had a group of U16 players last year and mind you, we weren't the most
sophisticated team.  We always passed with 3 until the Kaepa Festival.  For
some reason I had it stuck in my mind that it was the only way to go.
Other teams would constantly attack that 3rd passer because she had a hard
time passing, even when we had her cover a small area.

So sometime during the 3rd day, after trying just about all my players as
the 3rd passer, I figured, "alright, lets do this, lets just pass with 2".
Needless to say, my 2 passers were a little shocked.  We'd never done that
before but the 2 passers were sisters(one of which who was 13 year old) so
they thought it was kind of cool.  Somehow, it worked.  We won a match on
Wed. and on Thursday went 3-0.  Saturday wasn't so good but it wasn't due
to the passing.

Did we have a sophisticated offense?  Not by any stretch of the
imagination. Occasionally we had a quick hitter but our offense was just a
(4-1-5) or most of the time a (4-2-5).

Quote:
> The piece of Tord's post which I have contention with is this:

> >As far as I know the 2/3 reception was introduced in the early 80s but
> >abandoned to any greater extent after the 1984 olympics when blocking
> >the serv was made elegal.

> I don't agree with this statement.  Yes, the 2-man system came about
> in the early 80's, but it was not 'abandoned' until much later, in the
> early 90's, when the jump serve had become much more of a weapon.
> Case in point:  Kiraly and Ctvrtlik's passing helped the USA win that
> gold in Seoul in 88, using a 2-man system.  In fact, the USA was still

Lets not forget Kiraly and Berins in '84.

Quote:
> using 2 primary passers up through Barcelona and Atlanta, though, quite
> assuredly, they're adding a 3rd passer as required for today's
jumpserves.
> I would say that many European club teams still use some variation of
> the 2/3 person system (e.g., Kiraly w/ Il Messagero a few years back...
> again, this is something of a result of the factors pointed out above:
> personnel, offense, serves).

... <snip>

Quote:
> Michael

> --
> Michael Bertz
> Georgia Institute of Technology


"T"
 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Teron U » Wed, 06 Aug 1997 04:00:00

One way to get them to believe that they can do it is just play catch.
I was demonstrating to my team on how ridiculous it was for a served
ball(except for
maybe a jump serve) to go straight to the floor.

So this is what I did. I put 3 people on one side of the court and the rest
of the team
on the other side on the endline.  The objective for the "servers" was to
just throw
the ball over and make it hit the ground.  The object of the "receivers"
was to catch
the ball underhand.  It was pretty difficult for the servers.

Very quickly my team understood my point.

I then progressed to make it harder by saying that the receivers had to
"hop to
the spot" before they catch the ball.  Then they had to catch it below
their waste.
Then I had the servers serve the ball.  Then I had the receivers pass the
ball.  The passing improved because now they were getting to they ball.

This didn't mean, however, that they didn't shank balls.  But it seemed now
that I had
won at least half the battle: 1. Getting the receivers to move to the ball
as soon as it
was contacted and 2. Going to where they could pass the ball comfortably.
Low and
in front of the body whether they had to go forward or backwards.

Hope that helps as a teaching idea.

"T'



Quote:

> > Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I
noticed
> > a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could
someone
> > email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
> > That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all
the
> > rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
> > greatly appreciate it.

> > PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr
high
> > aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

> > Thanks
> > Marty
> The problem with 2-3 person receiving is that when they are so young
> they are usually not big enough to cover the whole court.
> To play a 2 receving system (we play a 2? person system) your two
> recevers must cover the court in 2 (THATS TWO) steps or they will be
> aced, they also must learn to read the serv very, very early.
> As far as I know the 2/3 reception was introduced in the early 80s but
> abandoned to any greater extent after the 1984 olympics when blocking
> the serv was made elegal.
> Your advantadge with a 2/3 pers reception is that your poorer serv re.
> may be hidden and not used as targets by your opponents server, we use
> this system to let our new players that are not experienced enough to
> recive play MB while our OH go swing hitting.
> This however depends upon the quality of your opponants serv.
> Totte.

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Jon Pugmi » Wed, 06 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


>>Greetings all.  Last year while watching some highschool matches I noticed
>>a couple of teams using 2 and 3 person receive formations.  Could someone
>>email me and post a detailed description of these two offensive sets.
>>That is, how do I keep the same 2(3) people in position throughout all the
>>rotations.  If anyone has detailed graphics on this subject I would
>>greatly appreciate it.

>It's really easy to keep the same 2 or 3 people passing every
>rotation.  The key to it is to understand overlapping and to have
>quick passers and a quick setter.

>Generally, it is easier when you have two passers to stay in rotation,
>but the two passers have to cover a lot of court.  The two outside
>hitters would pass, or the opposite and outside (farthest away) would
>pass.  You need to move the middles and setter around a little to get
>out of the way of the passers.

>If you want to pull a third passer in (OP or OH), you just slide that
>person into the passing scheme.

>Draw it out on paper, with all 6 rotations and move your people around
>until the two/three passers are in position.  Then, slide your other
>players on the court, keeping them in rotation.

>>PS  I coach on a grade school level and this would be used for the Jr high
>>aged kids 13 and 14 yr olds.

>Then again, I am not sure how many 13/4 year olds are going to be fast
>enough to do this kind of serve-receive.

>- Mike Lehnertz

Here's a copy of a post I made last year with diagrams for a 3 person receive,
plus some comments.  One should also note that the classic 'W' formation is
actually a poorly designed two primary passer system, with the front 3 helping
occasionally on a short serve.  Once your players get their heads wrapped
around a 3 person receive, it actually requires *less* quickness since the
deep court is covered better by 3 passers.  Same is true when
College/International teams put the 3rd passer in on jump serves since they
have less time to react to the serve.

Subject:      Re: Rotation order, middle vs. setter

Date:         1996/10/16

Newsgroups:   rec.sport.volleyball
[More Headers]

- Show quoted text -

Quote:


>>What are the reasons for putting the middle blocker behind the setter
>>in the rotation order, versus putting them in front?

>    Each orientation will trap the setter behind an OH (and therefore
>    presumably a primary passer) in the back row for one particular
>    rotation.  In the less-common "setter leads" orientation, when the
>    setter is LB, the MB will be "behind" her in CB, and an OH will be
>    "ahead" of her in LF.  The OH must step back to pass, forcing the
>    setter to run from zone 5 to the net on serve-receive.  In the
>    nearly-universal "setter follows" orientation, this situation occurs
>    when the setter is RB, and an OH "behind" her in RF pulls back to
>    pass, forcing her to run from zone 1 to the net.  Since setters
>    usually set from the zone 2-zone 3 boundary, it's easier to get
>    there from zone 1 than from zone 5.  When the setter rotates to LB,
>    the MB will be "ahead" of her at LF, and the setter can "follow" her
>    to the net on serve-receive.

>Eric Wang


For those (like me) who are unable to see this in their head,
here's a basic 3 passer system where the opposite and outside hitters
are the primary passers.  Note that rotations labeled 1 and 2 have the
furthest for the setter to go, you can easily adjust to a 2 passer system
where the setter will never have to make more than a couple steps.
(Assuming your opposite is a capable passer and not just a gargantuan ball
pounder). Also, if you have a middle that can pass, they can take the place
of OH in 1 and O in 2 (with the necessary shifting of course). Minor
modification will lead to a 2 passer system where the outside hitters are
the primary receivers.  Just move the opposite to an appropriate out of the
way position.

The greatest advantage is in rotation 3 where it can be a chore for the
setter to get to the net and turned around if s/he has to come from the
left sideline.  As Eric mentioned above, your outsides are usually your
best passers, middles have historically been weaker in that area. This
allows them to call out/in from the back row, and get ready for the quick
approach when in the front, without having to worry about passing first.

 1.  O          M          OH   2.   OH         O          M
     oh         m          s         m          s          oh

   ---------------------------     ---------------------------
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |    M                    |     |                      M  |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |-------------------------|     |-------------------------|
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |   O              OH     |     |  OH        O       oh   |
   |         oh         s    |     |             s           |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |              m          |     |m                        |
   ---------------------------     ---------------------------

 3.  M          OH         O    4.   S          M          OH
     s          oh         m         oh         m          o

   ---------------------------     ---------------------------
   | M                       |     |                 S       |
   |          s              |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                   M     |
   |-------------------------|     |-------------------------|
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |  OH                O    |     |  oh                 OH  |
   |           oh            |     |            o            |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                      m  |     |      m                  |
   ---------------------------     ---------------------------

 5.  OH         S          M    6.   M          OH         S
     m          o          oh        o          oh         m

   ---------------------------     ---------------------------
   |                 S       |     |                  S      |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                   M     |     | M                       |
   |-------------------------|     |-------------------------|
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   | OH         o        oh  |     |  o        OH            |
   |                         |     |                  oh     |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |                         |     |                         |
   |      m                  |     |                      m  |
   ---------------------------     ---------------------------

Jon

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by VolleyBa » Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:00:00

A coach with a single outstanding passer can set up a 3-person receive so
that the single best passer is always in the middle.  Teams may pick on
the weaker outside passers but usually take heat off of the serve in order
to accurately spot the sides.

The biggest advantage I have had with this formation is that I can dump
decision making for first ball onto a single player.  That player takes
any serves in range and clearly signals (by opening up) when she expects
another player to take the ball.  This player usually will improve greatly
as a passer within a short time of moving to this position, and frequently
will handle well over half of the service receptions (depending upon
opponents service style).
Bruce Bartholomew
Software Engineer/Volleyball Coach
Riverside, California

 
 
 

2 Person / 3 person Receive

Post by Doug Fulle » Wed, 13 Aug 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> A coach with a single outstanding passer can set up a 3-person receive so
> that the single best passer is always in the middle.  Teams may pick on
> the weaker outside passers but usually take heat off of the serve in order
> to accurately spot the sides.

> The biggest advantage I have had with this formation is that I can dump
> decision making for first ball onto a single player.  That player takes
> any serves in range and clearly signals (by opening up) when she expects
> another player to take the ball.  This player usually will improve greatly
> as a passer within a short time of moving to this position, and frequently
> will handle well over half of the service receptions (depending upon
> opponents service style).

One thing that needs to be enforced is that the non-primary passer(s)
have to be expecting to pass the ball at all times.  I have seen many
occasions where the non-primary gets a serve off the knees because they
were expecting the primary passer to take it.  It's that communication
thing...

Doug

--
Doug Fuller

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