Sport Today

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Colnago    20 - 30% off
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Ironman 25-50%off
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great deals on all 2000 equipment

legal note:  we are not currently under investigation, have not spoken with
anyone in Australia, don't know anyone in Australia, but I might go there
next year for vacation.  I hope this clears up any confusion.

Glad to hear it. But what's your web address?

No but you are listed as one of their dealers who if you sold a frame that
was listed as part of the credit card fraud just might end up paying for
others mistakes, would it be so funny then.

Take the "piss" out of me anytime as to be honest I deserve it, I was stupid
enough to trust these people so I deserve what I got but think about the
other people, and companies involved.

Lloyd

You know Llyod, each post in this series seems to shed a little more
light on what you're referring to.

My guess, not knowing the particulars, is that someone provided some
bike frames to a company on credit (with a card), who has now either
declared bankruptcy or refused payment for some reason.

In the above case with Bonzai - if they purchased the frames in
question from a distributor and paid for it and then the DISTRIBUTOR
went bankrupt or for whatever reason never paid the frame builder,
Bonzai has no legal or m***problems. Nor would the purchaser of the
frame from Bonzai.

If I buy a car from a dealership and they go bankrupt because they
didn't pay their bills, they don't come and take my car. And I have no
m***or legal obligations or responsibilities to the manufacturer of
the car who provided it to the dealership.

I think you need to be a bit more careful in the words you toss
around. Theft and credit card fraud are not applicable terms when
dealing with bankruptcy or disputed charges.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
Ironman Canada '98
Great Floridian '99, '00

opps sorry,
forgot to post web address

--
Bonzai Sports
2826 Fallfax Drive
Falls Church VA  22042
703-280-2248

www.tribonzai.com

Lloyd, I have no idea the nature of your complaint, but until I receive some
legal notification that our company is involved in any type of legal action
I don't think I am going to get involved or take sides in a matter of which
does not really concern us.

I do know that the cycling and triathlon industry is very dynamic, I think
every company that we deal with has changed ownership hands, or underwent
financial difficulty at some time.  Quintana Roo, Ironman, Litespeed,
Kestrel, Mongoose, Schwinn, Softride, the list goes on, and on.  There is
always risk in conducting business.  I don't think this is the proper forum
for financial disputes or accusations to be tossed about.  You may have a
very legitimate claim but I don't think our company can help you, and I
don't think anyone in the  news group can help you collect any debt that you
may be owed unless they happen to be a collections attorney.

I think that the news group is a great forum for dissemination of
information.  If a race is really gone well, I'd love to hear about it, but
if a race has been really screwed up I might not be so interested in
attending but I don't want to hear about a personal dispute an individual
might have with a race director.  I think most intelligent readers will be
able to distinguish between an honest opinion, good or bad, and a personal
attack or malicious posting just to hurt the referenced business.  If you
have something factual to post that is in the interest of the readers please
do so, but if your mad because you think your business has been shortchanged
I personally don't think I can help.

Just my humble opinion,

Like I said, I dont care personally and in case you cant read I am not
trying to recover money!!!!!
Can you understand that??
I have written my debt off a long time ago, I am caught up in actions that I
dont really care about but know that other on this newsgroup may be involved
and contrary to what some people may dream, goods that are obtained by
theft, be it fraud etc are recoverable under US Federal Laws.

.

Mike I have already dealt with this matter for 4 months and have had the
laws as they stand drummed into my head by 3 different companies
attorneys/solicitors and the PA State police. I can tell you without a doubt
in my head that should this matter proceed to court the goods in question
will be subject to recovery actions not because of the debt which as you
rightly say is between companies  but because of the manner in which the
goods were obtained and disposed of which is simple theft.

Stolen goods are not bad debts, goods obtained by fraudulent activities are
not considered "bad debts" but stolen property. Slight difference.

Lloyd

Lloyd, your apparent lack of professionalism in the way you are handling
this issue throught the rec.sport.triathlon site makes me wonder if your
attitude and lack of ability in communicating constructively with others has
caused part of your business problem.  You may not be trying to recover
money, but it sure appears you are blowing some by continuing your
litigation.

I read RST articles in search of better training methods and tips on how to
advance my performance, not to receive updates about manufacturer and
distributor legal litigations.  If you're looking for a forum to vent, go
talk to your attorney or post your ***on rec.bicycles.tech.  IF YOU DON'T
HAVE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS...DON'T POST!

For the rest of us... isn't there a RST newgroup administrator that can make
the call to block out this junk if it continues.  This is the third or
fourth discussion thread that Lloyd has started allegations and disrupted

unless this ends.  I'm one for free speak, but come on.  Some of this junk
is borderline slander/libel and deformation when it impacts others
businesses.

Byron
Santiago, Chile

| Like I said, I dont care personally and in case you cant read I am not
| trying to recover money!!!!!
| Can you understand that??
| I have written my debt off a long time ago, I am caught up in actions that
I
| dont really care about but know that other on this newsgroup may be
involved
| and contrary to what some people may dream, goods that are obtained by
| theft, be it fraud etc are recoverable under US Federal Laws.
|
| .
|
|
|
|
|
|


| > Lloyd, I have no idea the nature of your complaint, but until I receive
| some
| > legal notification that our company is involved in any type of legal
| action
| > I don't think I am going to get involved or take sides in a matter of
| which
| > does not really concern us.
| >
| > I do know that the cycling and triathlon industry is very dynamic, I
think
| > every company that we deal with has changed ownership hands, or
underwent
| > financial difficulty at some time.  Quintana Roo, Ironman, Litespeed,
| > Kestrel, Mongoose, Schwinn, Softride, the list goes on, and on.  There
is
| > always risk in conducting business.  I don't think this is the proper
| forum
| > for financial disputes or accusations to be tossed about.  You may have
a
| > very legitimate claim but I don't think our company can help you, and I
| > don't think anyone in the  news group can help you collect any debt that
| you
| > may be owed unless they happen to be a collections attorney.
| >
| > I think that the news group is a great forum for dissemination of
| > information.  If a race is really gone well, I'd love to hear about it,
| but
| > if a race has been really screwed up I might not be so interested in
| > attending but I don't want to hear about a personal dispute an
individual
| > might have with a race director.  I think most intelligent readers will
be
| > able to distinguish between an honest opinion, good or bad, and a
personal
| > attack or malicious posting just to hurt the referenced business.  If
you
| > have something factual to post that is in the interest of the readers
| please
| > do so, but if your mad because you think your business has been
| shortchanged
| > I personally don't think I can help.
| >
| > Just my humble opinion,
| >
| >


| > > No but you are listed as one of their dealers who if you sold a frame
| that
| > > was listed as part of the credit card fraud just might end up paying
for
| > > others mistakes, would it be so funny then.
| > >
| > > Take the "piss" out of me anytime as to be honest I deserve it, I was
| > stupid
| > > enough to trust these people so I deserve what I got but think about
the
| > > other people, and companies involved.
| > >
| > >
| > > Lloyd
| >
| >
| >
|
|

[complaints to Lloyd snipped for brevity]

First, there is no RST newsgroup administrator.
Second, you're not alone in your distaste for on-line litigations.
Third, if you believe that a company that engages in such on-line
litigations does not deserve your business business, don't waste time
posting the opinion here. It likely will not make a difference to someone
who does not have the common sense to keep litigations where they belong (in
court). Instead, voice your opinion with your wallet -- don't do business
with the company in question.
Last, depending on the newsgroup reader you use, there may be an option to
use a kill-file or some other filter option to not show posts from certain
addresses. That's probably the most effective way you can control what you
see, while still acknowledging the offending parties right to post.

David / FEY2K
IMCAL2000 16:53
--------------------------------

(remove spaces)
at att dot net

Well said David.  I'm not giving an audience to this junk anymore.  Have
good weekend and good luck to those on that Sunday LONG workout.

| [complaints to Lloyd snipped for brevity]
| > For the rest of us... isn't there a RST newgroup administrator that can
| make
| > the call to block out this junk if it continues.  This is the third or
| > fourth discussion thread that Lloyd has started allegations and
disrupted

| > unless this ends.  I'm one for free speak, but come on.  Some of this
junk
| > is borderline slander/libel and deformation when it impacts others
| > businesses.
|
| First, there is no RST newsgroup administrator.
| Second, you're not alone in your distaste for on-line litigations.
| Third, if you believe that a company that engages in such on-line
| litigations does not deserve your business business, don't waste time
| posting the opinion here. It likely will not make a difference to someone
| who does not have the common sense to keep litigations where they belong
(in
| court). Instead, voice your opinion with your wallet -- don't do business
| with the company in question.
| Last, depending on the newsgroup reader you use, there may be an option to
| use a kill-file or some other filter option to not show posts from certain
| addresses. That's probably the most effective way you can control what you
| see, while still acknowledging the offending parties right to post.
|
|
| David / FEY2K
| IMCAL2000 16:53
| --------------------------------

| (remove spaces)
| at att dot net
|
|
|

If you were one of the 6 or so people who have contacted us after seeing the
post and also passing on problems they are having trying to recover money
you would feel differently. Well maybe not maybe you feel it is OK for
someone to advertise stolen property on RST but not OK to try and find out
who was unlucky enough to buy it.

As I have said more than a few times, the company in question advertised the
frames on RST and eBay exclusively. If you can come up with a brilliant way
of finding the frames so we can actually avoid further litigation the speak
up, otherwise get a life.

Lloyd