Pop Quiz #5

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Larry Chapm » Sat, 14 Sep 1991 01:18:27


During a  TriFed/USA  sanctioned  event  althetes  are not  allowed  to get
"outside  support".  You must fix your own  flats,  you must only get "aid"
from official aid stations etc.

During a race can a friend  give you your  splits  and tell you  about  the
position of other racers?  Is this considered "outside support"?

-- LSC

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Tim Sulliv » Sun, 15 Sep 1991 03:44:43


Quote:

>During a  TriFed/USA  sanctioned  event  althetes  are not  allowed  to get
>"outside  support".  

>During a race can a friend  give you your  splits  and tell you  about  the
>position of other racers?  Is this considered "outside support"?

>-- LSC

        sounds like the answer is no, according to what I read in the 1990
        competition guide.  It says a participant can not recieve "assitance in
        any form, including...".  Now, it does not list this example, but I
        see nowhere where this is allowed.

        Gee, this seems baazar.

        I seems as if m***support is also prohibited.  I guess I better have
        the wife and child stay home this weekend.  I sure will miss my
        daughters "Go Daddy!".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan


 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Larry Chapm » Sat, 21 Sep 1991 04:48:43

Quote:
> During a  TriFed/USA  sanctioned  event  althetes  are not  allowed  to get
> "outside  support".  You must fix your own  flats,  you must only get "aid"
> from official aid stations etc.

> During a race can a friend  give you your  splits  and tell you  about  the
> position of other racers?  Is this considered "outside support"?

The wording in the guidebook is not clear on this.  I hope to change it for
1992.

The answer is that only "physical"  assistance is illegal.  People can talk
to you as much as they wish.

-- LSC

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Craig Ba » Mon, 23 Sep 1991 06:47:43


Quote:

>> During a  TriFed/USA  sanctioned  event  athletes  are not  allowed  to get
>> "outside  support".  You must fix your own  flats,  you must only get "aid"
>> from official aid stations etc.

>> During a race can a friend  give you your  splits  and tell you  about  the
>> position of other racers?  Is this considered "outside support"?

> The wording in the guidebook is not clear on this.  I hope to change it for
> 1992.

> The answer is that only "physical"  assistance is illegal.  People can talk
> to you as much as they wish.

> -- LSC

Given the following hypothetical :-) situation, is there "physical" assistance?

There is a "long" run from the end of the swim to the swim/bike transition.
Much of this run is up a boat ramp covered with rocks.  After that, the run
continues up wooden steps and across a gravel parking lot.  Because of the
length of this run and the terrible terrain, the boat ramp is lined with
sneakers and aquasocks which the participants put on as they exit the water.
In order to easily find the correct shoes, my wife, er, excuse me, a friend
of this hypothetical participant stands beside the racer's shoes (out of the
race area) and yells at the participant so he can quickly find his shoes.
Also, this participant, who has pulled his wetsuit down to his waste,
decides to take off his wetsuit before putting on his shoes and throws the
wetsuit, cap, and goggles to this friend (out of the race area).  This allows
the racer to finish the run to the transition area without any swimming
gear.

Now, nothing here is physical assistance, but this is assistance which goes
beyond "inspirational".  But then again, I have seen racers mark
equipment (bikes in transition area, shoes on boat ramps, etc.) with helium
filled balloons for quick location (and I have seen other racers pop the
balloons!).  I have also seen racers discard equipment out of the race area
even though there was no one there to retrieve it for them.  So, to answer
my own question, I guess there is nothing illegal about this.  Its just
something I have wondered about.
--

c/o Cross Access Corp.            UUCP: {uunet,mips}!troi!craig
2900 Gordon Avenue, Suite 100     FAX: (408) 735-0328
Santa Clara, CA 95051-0718        TEL: (408) 735-7545

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Larry Chapm » Wed, 25 Sep 1991 00:18:42

Quote:
> > -- LSC

> Given the following hypothetical :-) situation, is there "physical"
> assistance?

> There is a "long" run from the end of the swim to the swim/bike transition.
> Much of this run is up a boat ramp covered with rocks.  After that, the run
> continues up wooden steps and across a gravel parking lot.  Because of the
> length of this run and the terrible terrain, the boat ramp is lined with
> sneakers and aquasocks which the participants put on as they exit the water.
> In order to easily find the correct shoes, my wife, er, excuse me, a friend
> of this hypothetical participant stands beside the racer's shoes (out of the
> race area) and yells at the participant so he can quickly find his shoes.
> Also, this participant, who has pulled his wetsuit down to his waste,
> decides to take off his wetsuit before putting on his shoes and throws the
> wetsuit, cap, and goggles to this friend (out of the race area).  This allows
> the racer to finish the run to the transition area without any swimming
> gear.

> Now, nothing here is physical assistance, but this is assistance which goes
> beyond "inspirational".  But then again, I have seen racers mark
> equipment (bikes in transition area, shoes on boat ramps, etc.) with helium
> filled balloons for quick location (and I have seen other racers pop the
> balloons!).  I have also seen racers discard equipment out of the race area
> even though there was no one there to retrieve it for them.  So, to answer
> my own question, I guess there is nothing illegal about this.  Its just
> something I have wondered about.

Hmmmmm.  Some  interesting  points here.  The following is my opinion and I
can't  guarantee  mine would match that of any officials at any  particular
race.  If a racer saw this  behavior  and filed a protest  TriFed could get
involved and if the racer who was  protested  wanted to appeal TriFed would
set-up a hearing .  .  .

Anyway, I don't  really  have a problem  with  someone  *outside*  the race
course  standing by shoes etc.  I do have a problem  with  racers  throwing
their wetsuits to spectators so they don't have to run carrying them.

Again, the  trained  officials  would have to make a  judgement  here.  The
protest/appeal  system  could  handle  the  rest.  Obviously,  there  is no
black&white answer here.

-- LSC

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Tim Sulliv » Wed, 25 Sep 1991 23:43:45


        story about wife standing near shoes, and collecting dicarded wet
        suit deleted.

Quote:
>I have also seen racers discard equipment out of the race area
>even though there was no one there to retrieve it for them.  So, to answer
>my own question, I guess there is nothing illegal about this.  Its just
>something I have wondered about.

        I wouldn't classify either of these as physical assistance, but I
        believe they violate another rule about discarding objects on the
        race course.  According to the rule book that is prohibited.  The 1990
        states that "No participant shall leave any equipment or personal gear
        on the race course". In the cases you cited, one hypothetical and one
        real, I would say don't throw the wet suit to your friend.  As for the
        people who discarded their equipment, I would not assume it was legal
        because they did it.

        That's a good idea about the ballons, BTW. I always try to make it easy
        to find my bike in some way.  Last rack, end spot, near a tree or sign.
        Something distinguishing.  Maybe next year I'll try ballons.  At
        least my daughter will get a kick out of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan

-or while impersonating a student:

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Douglas Gu » Fri, 27 Sep 1991 04:31:53

OK, on the subject of outside assisstance ....

You exit the water in fifth place, sprint up the river bank towards
the transition area, grab the zip string on the back of your wetsuit,
pull and it snaps!

Oh deary deary me, you are now in the transition area, in fifth place
and you can't reach the zip to undo the wetsuit. Can you ask someone to
unzip it for you?

Doug Gurr

PS This did in fact happen at the '90 Scottish championships

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Larry Chapm » Sat, 28 Sep 1991 00:01:31

Quote:
> OK, on the subject of outside assisstance ....

> You exit the water in fifth place, sprint up the river bank towards
> the transition area, grab the zip string on the back of your wetsuit,
> pull and it snaps!

> Oh deary deary me, you are now in the transition area, in fifth place
> and you can't reach the zip to undo the wetsuit. Can you ask someone to
> unzip it for you?

Technically the answer is no.  This is clearly one racer giving  assistance
to another (kinda like  drafting,  huh?).  Realistically,  I would hope our
officials would "turn the other way" when seeing something like this.

-- LSC

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Larry Chapm » Sat, 28 Sep 1991 23:43:27

Quote:
> I thought it was allowed to get assistance from a race official. In
> that case, the answer is to find an official in the transition
> area (probably one of the easier places to find one in a race).

True.

Quote:

> Of course in the future, that competitor will probably examine
> their equipment a little more closely before races.

Also true!

-- LSC

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by John Walk » Sat, 28 Sep 1991 06:05:09

Quote:

>> OK, on the subject of outside assisstance ....

>> You exit the water ..., sprint ... towards the transition area, grab
>> the zip string on the back of your wetsuit, pull and it snaps! ....

>> Can you ask someone to unzip it for you?

>Technically the answer is no.  ....

I thought it was allowed to get assistance from a race official. In
that case, the answer is to find an official in the transition
area (probably one of the easier places to find one in a race).

Of course in the future, that competitor will probably examine
their equipment a little more closely before races.

                                        -- John

--
----------------------------------------------------
John Walker                Metaphor Computer Systems

----------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Russell dePi » Thu, 03 Oct 1991 12:16:58

Quote:

>> > -- LSC

>> Given the following hypothetical :-) situation, is there "physical"
>> assistance?

        [ description of scenario deleted ]

Quote:
>> Now, nothing here is physical assistance, but this is assistance which goes
>> beyond "inspirational".  But then again, I have seen racers mark
>> equipment (bikes in transition area, shoes on boat ramps, etc.) with helium
>> filled balloons for quick location (and I have seen other racers pop the
>> balloons!).

I would have a problem if I saw a racer doing ANYTHING with equipment that
did not belong to that racer. Of course, sometimes in the TA, equipment does
sometimes get spread out into someone else's space. In that situation, if the
athlete moves the equipment, no big deal, anything else and I've got a problem.

Quote:
>>  I have also seen racers discard equipment out of the race area
>> even though there was no one there to retrieve it for them.  So, to answer

Anybody that chucks a $150 - $200 wetsuit on the way to the TA to no one in
particular and expects to get it back after the race is either (A) incredibly
lazy, or (B) incredibly stupid. In either case, such behavior warrants at
least a time penalty (Remember the littering rule, it applies to wetsuits as
well as flat tires/tubes !!!!)

Quote:
>> my own question, I guess there is nothing illegal about this.  Its just
>> something I have wondered about.

>Hmmmmm.  Some  interesting  points here.  The following is my opinion and I
>can't  guarantee  mine would match that of any officials at any  particular
>race.  If a racer saw this  behavior  and filed a protest  TriFed could get
>involved and if the racer who was  protested  wanted to appeal TriFed would
>set-up a hearing .  .  .

And it is every official's ardent desire to keep that from happening ! :-)

Quote:

>Anyway, I don't  really  have a problem  with  someone  *outside*  the race
>course  standing by shoes etc.  I do have a problem  with  racers  throwing
>their wetsuits to spectators so they don't have to run carrying them.

It gets back to the lazy thing again, I think if you wear it in, you carry it
out. But then again, if you can toss it to someone, then the wetsuit is not
going to get strewn out in the TA, and ruined when somebody rides over it with
their sandy/gravelly tires. When I am officiating, I tell the athletes if they
want to throw the wetsuit in the direction of someone who will pick it up for
them, fine, but if they just throw it somewhere, the littering rule will be
enforced.

Quote:

>Again, the  trained  officials  would have to make a  judgement  here.  The
>protest/appeal  system  could  handle  the  rest.  Obviously,  there  is no
>black&white answer here.

Agreed.

Quote:
>-- LSC

%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
"Nobody ever remembers who comes in second (let alone third")

Russell de Pina
Cadence Design Systems
CAE Division
3393 Octavius Drive
Santa Clara, CA 95054

(408) 987-5475


 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by rater.. » Thu, 03 Oct 1991 06:04:17

Quote:
Tim Sullivan writes:

   >>    I wouldn't classify either of these as physical assistance, but I
   >>   believe they violate another rule about discarding objects on the
   >>   race course.  According to the rule book that is prohibited.  The 1990       >>   states that "No participant shall leave any equipment or personal gear
   >>   on the race course".

        I believe the key word here is *on* the race course.  Throwing a wetsuit, or goggles, etc. to the side of the ramp, out of the way (over the ropes) should not be considered *on* the race course.
        As an example, consider an empty water bottle. This bottle can be legally thrown *off* the race course (into the ditch).  If the same bottle is simply dropped onto the road, it is now *on* the race course and should result in a violation.
       That is the way I learned it in the Tri-Fed official's clinic given by Paul Stern.

***  Keith 'Bonk' Raterink,   Bay Area Triathletes (Tx)  ***
        Really honey; bonking, hammering, & dropping are bike terms!

 
 
 

Pop Quiz #5

Post by Tim Sulliv » Fri, 04 Oct 1991 00:42:12


Quote:
>    As an example, consider an empty water bottle. This bottle can be
>    legally thrown *off* the race course (into the ditch).  If the same
>    bottle is simply dropped onto the road, it is now *on* the race course
>    and should result in a violation.
>       That is the way I learned it in the Tri-Fed official's clinic given by
>    Paul Stern.

        Hmmm, and I had formed the opinion that part of the reason for this
        rule would be so that the localities that act as hosts would not get
        pissed at those 'damn triathletes comming in and leaving their ***
        all over the place'.  That, of course, along with the safety issue of
        items being left in the path of other competitors.

        This reminds me of an almost completely unrelated occurance that I was
        involved in a couple of years ago in a race.  I believe it was the
        US Swim & Fitness ( aka, Aquatennial) in Minneapolis, 1988.  I came to
        the water bottle exchange area, and as everyone else was doing,
        discarded my nearly empty water bottle.  In doing so, I tossed it
        twoard the side of the road where the volunteers were picking up the
        discarded bottles.  I was looking at one volunteer as to NOT throw it
        to her, but by looking at her, I guess I miscalculated, and of course
        the bottle sailed right at her.  I didn't hit her as she was also
        watching me, and was able to avoid it, but I felt terible about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan

-or while impersonating a student: