Chinese swimming

Chinese swimming

Post by James G. Ack » Fri, 21 Oct 1994 22:46:29




:
: > In fact, I took pains to include the comment
: > that neither the swimmer nor the coach were aware of any drug use.  
:
: If there was a systematic drug program involved, all swimmers and coaches
: would have known it with no doubt.

        No, that's not true.  The coach, though he contributed swimmers
to the national team, was "out of the loop" when they made the national
team as far as their training, diet, etc. were concerned.  Now, you
would think the swimmer would know, but if the example of East Germany
is consulted, many of the swimmers there did NOT know.  They just did
what they were told to do.  One of the defectors early on said that
they were given a set of pills and powders to take with no explanation
of what they were for.  Only after she came to the West did she find out
she had physiological changes attributable to steroids.
        Given the apparent control of all training aspects that China
has (and E. Germany had), the possibility exists.  That's what I've
said, and that's what this particular Chinese coach admitted.  Nothing
more.

: > Now what I'm wondering is if I should advise U.S. Swimming of the
: > apparent benefits of having unborn sheep fetus and pig uterus for
: > dinner.
:
: There are a lot of valuable knowledge in traditional chinese medicine which
: westners know little about, yet they don't respect these knowledge in most
: case. Animal parts (turtle soup, fetus, uterus, tiger bone....) is only one
: part of traditinal chinese medicine. I doubt the west will ever be able to
: compete in this area with chinese in near future. But Japanese do have some
: good knowledge in this.

        I would think that the highly-paid USOC nutritionists should
look into this.

        One thing, though, totally off the subject of swimming:  the use
of tiger bone in "Oriental" medicines is one of the primary factors
that is threatening tiger extinction.  We've got plenty of sheep and
pigs, but the use of tiger bone should be expunged forcefully.  Same
with the use of rhinoceros horn for ornamental knife handles in
some Middle Eastern countries.  I don't know about the population of
turtles in China.

===============================================
|  James G. Acker                             |

===============================================
All comments are the personal opinion of the writer
and do not constitute policy and/or opinion of government
or corporate entities.

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by liming zha » Tue, 25 Oct 1994 22:13:24


Quote:

> r.s.o. stands for rec.sports.olympics, which is the newsgroup you are
> reading right now.

Some expert on the net posted that it takes one month, or at least two
weeks to clean up druged athletes. Your 6-day is simply out of your own
imagenation, which takes away whatever creditabitity you have.

Quote:
> Straight facts?  Is this coming from the same person who said that the
> Chinese gov't didn't offer $$$ for Olympic medals, that the athletes do
> it all for the honor?

Your way of lying is amazing, please re-post "my above statement" which I
don't recgonize myself.

L. Zhang

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by liming zha » Sat, 22 Oct 1994 19:41:00


Quote:

>    Given the apparent control of all training aspects that China
> has (and E. Germany had), the possibility exists.  That's what I've
> said, and that's what this particular Chinese coach admitted.  Nothing
> more.

E. German athletes was not randomly tested, but the Chinese athletes are.
The random tests make it impossible for Chinese to dope systematically
without the acknowledgement of the athletes. Before a surprising test, all
athletes need to be clean up surprisingly, right? You think the athletes
are so stupid as to not knowing what is going on? But individual cases can
always happen anywhere anytime.  

Quote:
>    I would think that the highly-paid USOC nutritionists should
> look into this.

It takes many years of training and practising under a good teacher for one
to become a knowledgeable TC doctor. There are tremendous amount of
knowledge about the properties of tens of thousands of TC medicine
ingredients, and most important, the concurrent effect of the different
mixture of them. They need to respect this knowledge first (as they have
shown in acupuncture). And they need to offer good pay to find some really
good TC doctors to teach them. I believe the practice of TC medicine is
forbiden in many states. Without lots of practising, one can never command
the knowledge. Can you make good wine without learning the skill from a
good master and without practising, no matter how many PhD you have?

Quote:
>    One thing, though, totally off the subject of swimming:  the use
> of tiger bone in "Oriental" medicines is one of the primary factors
> that is threatening tiger extinction.  We've got plenty of sheep and
> pigs, but the use of tiger bone should be expunged forcefully.

It is forbiden by law. But the knowledge is there and it is useful. We may
try to find out alternatives or try to farm tigers like sheep.

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by James G. Ack » Wed, 26 Oct 1994 23:27:15

        Short comments:

: Since the discussion of doping by Chiense athletes is still going on,
: I would like throw in a few more thoughts here.  Hope it helps.
:
: 1. I acknowledge that if there does exist an institutional doping
:    problem in China, then it is very likely that the effectiveness
:    of random tests be very limited.  The reason is that the time
:    for IOC officials to go through visa application and custom can
:    be so controlled that any trace of doping can be cleared during
:    the time.  
:
: 2. From the information that James obtained indirectly from a Chinese
:    swimming coach, it is evident that the Chinese coaches and athletes
:    have no knowledge of any doping program.  James explains this away
:    by emphasizing the tight control of athletes in a highly centralized
:    system.  
:
:    However, if one knows enough about people's daily life in a non-military
:    "unit" like a sport institution in China, he would suspect instinctly
:    the plausibility of keeping a thing such as doping program secret among
:    one particular group of ordinary people (i.e., not just the officials)
:    within the same "unit".  
:
:    In China, an unit is self-contained mini-society which takes care
:    everything from child care to funerals.  Almost everybody belongs to
:    some unit, although this situation has changed quite a bit since China's
:    the economical reform program launched.  Naturally, relationship among
:    people within an "unit" are usually quite close, resembling a small
:    suburb town in America in some sense.

        I found this very interesting.  Are you saying that the unit
is self-contained, semi-autonomous, to the point of being able to
conceal or "cover-up" some activities that they would not want
others to know about?   I gather you are saying it _is_ plausible
this could be done in this kind of organization.

: 3. Given the fact that the appearance of the Chinese women swimmers
:    and Ma's women runners are very different (the runners are quite thin),
:    if the both groups of athletes use doping as alleged, then there must be
:    two kinds of very different drug that one does, and the other does not,
:    cause muscle bulk.

        Very true.  If you take a look at Heike Drechsler, the
East German long-jumper and heptathlete _confirmed_ to be a steroid
user, she did not appear nearly as muscular as the swimmers.  Part of this is
due to the fact that muscular legs do not appear as bulky as muscular
arms and legs.  Runners generally have small upper bodies, and it's
advantageous to have a lightweight upper body and small legs for a
couple of reasons -- cuts the weight being carried, and reduces
the wind profile.
        Anyways, you're right.  The East Germans "tuned" their drug
program to the sport.  Furthermore, steroids don't just help build
bulk, they help aid muscular recovery after heavy exertion.

: 5. I hope that not many people would object that multiple random tests would
:    interrupt the alleged Chinese doping programs and would, to say the least,
:    serve to reduce the effectiveness of doping use.  Then, given the ransom
:    tests plus the intensive international attention and pressure that the
:    Chinese swimming team is undertaking, it is not too unreasonable to expect
:    that the performance of the Chinese women swimmer would drop within one
:    year or so.  

        As I've said before, if the type of tests advocated in the
statement signed by several coaches after the Worlds are instituted, and
the Chinese women maintain their level of excellence, there will be no
legitimate arguments for possible drug use.  The IOC should examine their
method of testing for testosterone supplements, though.

:    Therefore, if the performance of the swimmer does not drop in future,
:    then the possibility of doping would be greatly reduced, if my reasoning
:    is correct.

        Absolutely.  Thanks for saying so.

===============================================
|  James G. Acker                             |

===============================================
All comments are the personal opinion of the writer
and do not constitute policy and/or opinion of government
or corporate entities.

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by James G. Ack » Wed, 26 Oct 1994 23:45:35


: The article in Sept. 23 issue of Chinese Weekly "Outlook" has
: some interesting FACTS which are in direct contrast to James'
: FACTS. I don't which side to believe.

        The information I posted was pertinent to the post-Barcelona
(late 1992-early 1993) period.  The outline you present below
is quite similar, _except_ for the thing about national team
members training in their own province.  It's very possible that
they've changed the way training was done in the past year.  Perhaps
the coach that provided the comments I posted made his misgivings
with the program known enough to change the way the system operates.
Like you, I would find confirmed and up-to-date information
very interesting.

: and his/her coach(es) is (are) recognized as national coach.
: However, they train in their own province. The selection
: of a national team is based on performance. Coaches who
: can turn out national team member are rewarded but they
: can retain their athletes with a title of national team
: coach. National team members are designated annually along
: with their respective coach(es).There is one coordinator
: of the national team who is not directly involved with
: every member of the national team since members are still
: trained under their own provincial coach (entitled as national
: coach with all the privilege of a national coach) in their
: locality. This is contrary to the facts James presented.
: Two possibilities for the contradiction:

: 1) James' information is out-of-date and are no longer
: facts of the Chinese system.
: 2) the Chinese magazine is misleading readers.
: I hope that netters can clarify the issue since it is
: a very important fact in establishing or refuting
: the argument that the Chinese centralized system is
: prone to systematic and state sponsored doping program.

        Thanks, Andy.  The only way we can get a really clear
picture is to have all the information at hand.

        There is one other possibility that you don't mention, which
is analogous to the way the East Germans operated.  The E. Germans
had many different local sports centers, which produced their athletes.
However, when they were the top athletes, most of the swimmers
transferred to the Karl Marx Stadt swim center.  It was still a
"local" team, but had a very high percentage of their top swimmers.
So the decentralization described above could be operating (as it
sounds quite similar to the way the Chinese coach described it) with
one additional factor -- the best swimmers are encouraged, with
some incentives (a better place to live, a car and driver) to join
the provincial team in Beijing that just happens to be coached by
Coach Yunpeng, the top man in the coaching hierarchy.  Obviously,
many of them will join that team, for several factors:  coaching,
facilities, and perks.

        This type of system would make both what you quoted and
what I quoted "mesh" together in a logical fashion.

        The U.S. has had some semblance of this system.  When
Schubert was the main man in age-group and Olympic swimming, a lot
of swimmers moved to Mission Viejo to swim under his guidance.  There
weren't any super perks associated with this, but he was wise enough
to set up a system whereby visiting swimmers could live with the locals,
thus allowing him to have a bigger stable of top swimmers.

===============================================
|  James G. Acker                             |

===============================================
All comments are the personal opinion of the writer
and do not constitute policy and/or opinion of government
or corporate entities.

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by Hong-liang X » Thu, 27 Oct 1994 03:42:25



|>
|>   Short comments:
|>
|>
|> : 2. From the information that James obtained indirectly from a Chinese
|> :    swimming coach, it is evident that the Chinese coaches and athletes
|> :    have no knowledge of any doping program.  James explains this away
|> :    by emphasizing the tight control of athletes in a highly centralized
|> :    system.  
|> :
|> :    However, if one knows enough about people's daily life in a non-military
|> :    "unit" like a sport institution in China, he would suspect instinctly
|> :    the plausibility of keeping a thing such as doping program secret among
|> :    one particular group of ordinary people (i.e., not just the officials)
|> :    within the same "unit".  
|> :[...]
|>
|>   I found this very interesting.  Are you saying that the unit
|> is self-contained, semi-autonomous, to the point of being able to
|> conceal or "cover-up" some activities that they would not want
|> others to know about?   I gather you are saying it _is_ plausible
|> this could be done in this kind of organization.
|>

Note that I said it is a non-military "unit".  What you said is
certainly plausible in a military or police "unit".   Is it also
plausible in a similar institution in the USA?  

But you forgot what my point is.  My point is that, in a civilian
"unit" like a sport institution, it is hard to keep a secret as
sensitive as doping (imagine how hot it would be inside the sport
institution) among one group of people but from another group of
people, namely, among nutritionists and doctors, but from coaches
and athletes.  

Thanks for your comments.

Hong

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by Hong-liang X » Thu, 27 Oct 1994 05:26:46

One more comment:

Hong>3. Given the fact that the appearance of the Chinese women swimmers
Hong>   and Ma's women runners are very different (the runners are quite thin),
Hong>   if the both groups of athletes use doping as alleged, then there must be
Hong>   two kinds of very different drug that one does, and the other does not,
Hong>   cause muscle bulk.

James>       Very true.  If you take a look at Heike Drechsler, the
James> East German long-jumper and heptathlete _confirmed_ to be a steroid
James> user, she did not appear nearly as muscular as the swimmers.  Part of this is
James> due to the fact that muscular legs do not appear as bulky as muscular
James> arms and legs.  

According to your logic, an athlete who uses doping would only have
the parts of his (her) body that he (she) uses most grow bulky.
Is this true?  I believe there are plenty of counter-examples.

Even this is true, the Chinese women runners don't appear to have
muscular legs as well.  So it still doesn't hold for me.    

And you said that "there are two kinds of ***" is "Very true".  But
you again forgot to explain why you are so sure.  Are there two kinds
of *** that cause different growth of muscle?  If yes, what is their
effect and side-effect respectively?  If no, what did you say is "Very
true"?

Quote:
> Runners generally have small upper bodies, and it's
> advantageous to have a lightweight upper body and small legs for a
> couple of reasons -- cuts the weight being carried, and reduces
> the wind profile.

Are you saying that body shape is an important factor in selecting
athletes?  I totally agree.

Quote:
>    Anyways, you're right.  The East Germans "tuned" their drug
> program to the sport.  Furthermore, steroids don't just help build
> bulk, they help aid muscular recovery after heavy exertion.

I believe so.  

However, don't forget that the bulky muscle of the Chinese women swimmer
has been cited as one of "accumulated" evidences of their doping use.  
I was just trying to challenge this piece of "evidence".  If every piece
of "evidence" has been challenged and dismissed as weak or contradicting or
even false, can we say that the allegation is very weak since 10
contradicting "evidences" don't add up to a strong case?

Hong

 
 
 

Chinese swimming

Post by Matt Simmo » Sun, 23 Oct 1994 01:30:20

: E. German athletes was not randomly tested, but the Chinese athletes are.
: The random tests make it impossible for Chinese to dope systematically
: without the acknowledgement of the athletes. Before a surprising test, all
: athletes need to be clean up surprisingly, right? You think the athletes
: are so stupid as to not knowing what is going on? But individual cases can
: always happen anywhere anytime.  

OK, let's run through a scenario to show just how easy it is for the IOC
to conduct a surprise test in China.  First, they show up at Customs, to
get their visas, etc.  Now, if you're an IOC tester, it's kinda hard to
hide it at this stage: "No, officer, that's not a *** analyzer/drug
tester -- it's a very large, uhh, walkman, yeah, that's it"  So, at this
stage, we assume that Customs knows who you are.  Since the sports program
is run by the government, it's not a very big stretch of the imagination
to guess that Customs would pass the word on to the Sports people.  Then,
it's a simple matter of delaying the IOC testers (oh wait, there's this
form and this form that you have to fill out, and they take a day or two
to process.  Oh yeah, and you can't get into the sports complex for a few
days -- they're really busy in there) and/or hiding the athletes (as in
Joe was suddenly required to make an appearance at the opening of a mall
or something, on the other side of the country) until there's no danger
of them failing the tests...