The problem with Rugby League today

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Geff Fost » Sat, 20 Jul 1996 04:00:00


What is the problem you ask, well you only had to watch tonights
game involving Saints and Oldham to get a rough idea.

Now I don't know about any of you but I consider any fully professional
side which concedes 50 odd points on it's own ground (whether it be
a switched venue or not) as being nothing more than a disgrace.

If I was an Oldham spectator I would feel not only humiliated but
disgusted and cheated.

Lets face it Saints weren't that good, in my opinion we were
pretty average but for a side to just roll over and capitulate in the
second half was criminal to say the least.

It's not as if Oldham are a bad side either, they have got a good,
settled half-back comination, their pack is probably one of the
toughest in the league and they have some usefull players in the backs
such as Atcheson and Belle.

Nope you can't use the excuse that Oldham are a bad side but I would
certainly make the accusation that they are a badly coached side.

Andy Goodway as has been mentioned in previous postings in this
newsgroup made a lot of noises in the centenary season when he was
accused of not fielding his strongest side from week to week. In his
opinion last season was simply a training run and he effectively
treated it as such.

Well after all this so-called preparation what has been the result
for the clubs fortunes - nothing has changed, IMO they have got worse.

I went to Watersheddings last season and watched Saints demolish the
Roughyeds with only 12 men on the field. Tonight the Saints didn't
play as well as they did previously and yet they still managed to
score 54 points.

I am afraid that Andy Goodway simply isn't good enough, granted he
was a world class player in his day but when are these clubs going
to realise that top class players rarely if ever make good coaches.

One only has to look to Headingley for further proof of this theory.

World class rugby players are adept in the areas of speed, strength
and co-ordination but none of these assets count for anything when
you are put in charge of a rugby league side.

Oldham and a lot of other teams in the Superleague could solve a hell
of a lot of their problems if they concentrated more on good coaching
practices rather than flittering their money away on players which
they don't need because they already have all the talent which they
require playing right under their noses.

How much longer are the fans of Oldham and all those other clubs going
to suffer before somebody realises this?

Lets just hope that they still have some fans left when somebody does!

Geff

P.S. Anybody hear about all those Rugby Union fans who forked out
3000 pounds each to aid in the re-bulidng of Twickenham?

Apparantely they were all promised first refusal on tickets for
international matches for the next ten years. Well now that England
have been thrown out of the Five Nations these people are feeling
more than a little pissed off, especially as the RU say there is no
chance of them getting their money back.

Who says Rugby League holds a monopoly on administrative***-ups :)

-------------------------------------------------
Geff Foster              |"The Zone

St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by p matthe » Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Similar comments could me made of a team that was anihilated at
Central park on Boxing day, given that they have clamed for some time
that they are one of the better sides. While I agree with many of your
points, remember that Saints are currently on a high, as thay are now
looking favourites for this first SL season, which can make
performances look disappointing when they are actually quite good.

Quote:
>Lets face it Saints weren't that good, in my opinion we were

but you have seen some outstanding performances. Saints may have been
excellent last night, but you are used to better.

Quote:
>such as Atcheson and Belle.

I Still don't know why we sold Patch - one of the safest full backs in
the league!

Quote:
>for the clubs fortunes - nothing has changed, IMO they have got worse.

or is everyone else better?

Quote:
>play as well as they did previously and yet they still managed to
>score 54 points.

Is that not the oft-quoyed sign of a good team - lesser performance
but still a convincing win?

Quote:
>One only has to look to Headingley for further proof of this theory.

Bit of a pity that - a well respected player and captain not able to
cut it in coaching.

Quote:
>World class rugby players are adept in the areas of speed, strength
>and co-ordination but none of these assets count for anything when
>you are put in charge of a rugby league side.

Quite right, leadership and imagination are possibly the two of the
most useful assets, but given that Bell was a good captain, so you
would expect him to be a good leader.

Quote:
>Oldham and a lot of other teams in the Superleague could solve a hell
>of a lot of their problems if they concentrated more on good coaching
>practices rather than flittering their money away on players which
>they don't need because they already have all the talent which they
>require playing right under their noses.

I made similar comments when saints were trying to sign Newlove. Good
as he is, one world class palyer will never make a team. London are a
good example of a balanced team.

Paul.
-------------------------------------------------
"You can't search my soul without a Warrant"


Westhoughton, Lancs UK
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Geff Fost » Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:


><Chop>

>But isn't this the sort of thing us Wigan fans have been saying for
>the last few years. There are now four clubs (Bradford, Saints,
>Warrington, London) who I would not try to predict the away result
>against for Wigan. At home I would expect to beat even these (Imagine
>the surprise against London!). Everyone else in the league are looked
>on as points in the bank to the supporters.

>We need to be unsure of the results of Wigan and Saints at home teams
>like Workington for SL to be considered a success on the field

>Paul.

Certainly there are clubs which are making every effort to improve their
playing standards, but unless the other clubs make the same effort it all
goes to waste.

I have said before that improvement is borne through competing in a pressure
situation, but if there is no pressure applied there is no impovement.

Maybe we should just have London, Saints, Bradford and Wigan playing each
other in a Super Super league, I know it's ridiculous but at least it would
be competetive.

I dread to think what the effect of increasing the size of the league will
have on playing standards in British RL.

Geff

-------------------------------------------------
Geff Foster              |"The Zone

St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by p matthe » Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:00:00

<Chop>

But isn't this the sort of thing us Wigan fans have been saying for
the last few years. There are now four clubs (Bradford, Saints,
Warrington, London) who I would not try to predict the away result
against for Wigan. At home I would expect to beat even these (Imagine
the surprise against London!). Everyone else in the league are looked
on as points in the bank to the supporters.

We need to be unsure of the results of Wigan and Saints at home teams
like Workington for SL to be considered a success on the field

Paul.
-------------------------------------------------
"You can't search my soul without a Warrant"


Westhoughton, Lancs UK
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Geff Fost » Sun, 21 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:


>Similar comments could me made of a team that was anihilated at
>Central park on Boxing day, given that they have clamed for some time
>that they are one of the better sides. While I agree with many of your
>points, remember that Saints are currently on a high, as thay are now
>looking favourites for this first SL season, which can make
>performances look disappointing when they are actually quite good.

Saints were not excellent last night by any stretch of the imagination,
they made 13 handling errors and missed 20 tackles.

In addition to this the blew at least 12 points with silly play and schoolboy
errors gifted Oldham a further 12 points with shocking defensive play.

Saints didn't have to get out of second gear simply beacuse Oldham were IMO
clueless due to a poor standard of coaching.

Quote:
>>for the clubs fortunes - nothing has changed, IMO they have got worse.
>or is everyone else better?

>>play as well as they did previously and yet they still managed to
>>score 54 points.
>Is that not the oft-quoyed sign of a good team - lesser performance
>but still a convincing win?

No, what I saw on the pitch was IMO slap dash rugby with Saints winning
simply because the oppostion seemed to have little to no knowledge of
basic RL fundamentals.

I am a great admirer of Australian football, granted for the last couple
of seasons a gulf has grown between the have and have-nots of Ozzie RL
before then even the bottom club could be expected to put up stern resistance
to the better clubs.

This was achieved by having a team which possibly didn't have too many class
players but with a squad which was well versed in the basic aspects of the
game i.e. correct tackling techniques, hard straight running in the forwards
and a good kicking game.

OK some people may say this is boring, but it is certainly competetive.

I can think of very few English clubs who could call themselves a complete
Rugby side.

Quote:
>>One only has to look to Headingley for further proof of this theory.
>Bit of a pity that - a well respected player and captain not able to
>cut it in coaching.

>>World class rugby players are adept in the areas of speed, strength
>>and co-ordination but none of these assets count for anything when
>>you are put in charge of a rugby league side.
>Quite right, leadership and imagination are possibly the two of the
>most useful assets, but given that Bell was a good captain, so you
>would expect him to be a good leader.

Also add the skill of man-management which is the area in which Bell falls
down abysmally.

No matter which way you look at it you can usually tell a good coach within
the first 10 games which the team plays.

There have been very few exceptions to this rule.

Quote:
>Paul.
>-------------------------------------------------
>"You can't search my soul without a Warrant"


>Westhoughton, Lancs UK
>-------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------
Geff Foster              |"The Zone

St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
-------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by John Lancaste » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
>>Saints were not excellent last night by any stretch of the imagination,
>>they made 13 handling errors and missed 20 tackles.

>>In addition to this the blew at least 12 points with silly play and schoolboy
>>errors gifted Oldham a further 12 points with shocking defensive play.
>>No matter which way you look at it you can usually tell a good coach within
>>the first 10 games which the team plays.

Please note, Geff wrote the above, not me.

The defence has been ***all season, hence my earlier, much
publicised, concerns about fat boy Mcrea and his so called defensive
expertise.

 Far more than ten games gone and still tackling like jessies.

Still, five more games. Fingers crossed.
John Lancaster
St Helens

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by John Lancaste » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>>We need to be unsure of the results of Wigan and Saints at home teams
>>like Workington for SL to be considered a success on the field

Never mind , we can all shit ourselves away to Wales instead.....

John Lancaster
St Helens

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Geff Fost » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:



>>>Saints were not excellent last night by any stretch of the imagination,
>>>they made 13 handling errors and missed 20 tackles.

>>>In addition to this the blew at least 12 points with silly play and schoolboy
>>>errors gifted Oldham a further 12 points with shocking defensive play.

>>>No matter which way you look at it you can usually tell a good coach within
>>>the first 10 games which the team plays.

>Please note, Geff wrote the above, not me.

>The defence has been ***all season, hence my earlier, much
>publicised, concerns about fat boy Mcrea and his so called defensive
>expertise.

> Far more than ten games gone and still tackling like jessies.

Well John I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that.

Saints are not playing IMO championship football, however neither is anybody
else so I guess that doesn't count for anything.

As you well know I think McRae is doing a pretty good job at Knowsley Road,
Ok everthing isn't perfect but we do seem to have that little more concentration
these days, our tackling isn't fantastic but when we have to tackle more often
than not we seem to be able to come up with the goods.

After seeing some of the tackling under the Eric Hughes regime I am under no
illusions as how big the task of re-educating some of our players will be.

Geff

-------------------------------------------------
Geff Foster              |"The Zone

St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by John Lancaste » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>>After seeing some of the tackling under the Eric Hughes regime I am under no
>>illusions as how big the task of re-educating some of our players will be.

You have a point there, Geff....

John Lancaster
St Helens

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Paul McNall » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00


net.com> writes

Quote:
>I am afraid that Andy Goodway simply isn't good enough, granted he
>was a world class player in his day but when are these clubs going
>to realise that top class players rarely if ever make good coaches.

Andy Gregory being an exception!

I agree totally though. Couldn't believe it when Goodway was involved in
the England set-up.

Can't really see what he's trying to achieve with Oldham as he doesn't
seem that bothered about what happens with them.

Paul
        ww
    |\---/ >

     \____/      --------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Geff Fost » Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:


><Chop>

>But isn't this the sort of thing us Wigan fans have been saying for
>the last few years. There are now four clubs (Bradford, Saints,
>Warrington, London) who I would not try to predict the away result
>against for Wigan. At home I would expect to beat even these (Imagine
>the surprise against London!). Everyone else in the league are looked
>on as points in the bank to the supporters.

>We need to be unsure of the results of Wigan and Saints at home teams
>like Workington for SL to be considered a success on the field

How about Leeds?

It's like shelling peas unless your the Prescot Academy Side.

Throw em out I say :)

I know Chris will agree with me so that's at least two votes!

Geff

-------------------------------------------------
Geff Foster              |"The Zone

St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
-------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Stev » Tue, 23 Jul 1996 04:00:00


net.com> writes

Quote:



>>>>Saints were not excellent last night by any stretch of the imagination,
>>>>they made 13 handling errors and missed 20 tackles.

>>>>In addition to this the blew at least 12 points with silly play and schoolboy
>>>>errors gifted Oldham a further 12 points with shocking defensive play.

>>>>No matter which way you look at it you can usually tell a good coach within
>>>>the first 10 games which the team plays.

>>Please note, Geff wrote the above, not me.

>>The defence has been ***all season, hence my earlier, much
>>publicised, concerns about fat boy Mcrea and his so called defensive
>>expertise.

>> Far more than ten games gone and still tackling like jessies.

>Well John I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that.

>Saints are not playing IMO championship football, however neither is anybody
>else so I guess that doesn't count for anything.

>As you well know I think McRae is doing a pretty good job at Knowsley Road,
>Ok everthing isn't perfect but we do seem to have that little more concentration
>these days, our tackling isn't fantastic but when we have to tackle more often
>than not we seem to be able to come up with the goods.

>After seeing some of the tackling under the Eric Hughes regime I am under no
>illusions as how big the task of re-educating some of our players will be.

>Geff

>-------------------------------------------------
>Geff Foster              |"The Zone

>St. Helens, Merseyside   | of it's own"
>-------------------------------------------------

I'm no expert but isn't pressure a key word here, does the number of
errors rise in accordance with the amount of pressure you are put under,
isn't that why Wigans wheels are falling off (despite having the best
set of players in SL)?

Steve Oh

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Vibrating Bum-Faced Goa » Tue, 23 Jul 1996 04:00:00

<SNIP>

: How about Leeds?

: Throw em out I say :)

: I know Chris will agree with me so that's at least two votes!

Well, I'd be fair and give them a chance to publicly reason why they
shouldn't be kicked out. *Then* I'd***'em against the wall. You have to
be seen to be open-minded and that in these media concious days Geff. :)

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The problem with Rugby League today

Post by WiganRLf » Tue, 23 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I'm no expert but isn't pressure a key word here, does the number of
>errors rise in accordance with the amount of pressure you are put under,
>isn't that why Wigans wheels are falling off (despite having the best
>set of players in SL)?

Err yes and no.  You can't generalise.  I did not see the Oldham Saints
game but my opinion of Oldham (i.e. pretty crap) is that I would guess
Saints got bored and forgot the basics for a bit.

As for Wigan its not so much pressure form other teams as a lack of decent
forwards that is causing the trouble.  Unless the first choice 6 are all
fit then we struggle, which has not been the case in the past.

Dave  

Wigan RLFC - Simply the Best

Shaun Edwards for Prime Minister

 
 
 

The problem with Rugby League today

Post by Adam Lawrenc » Tue, 23 Jul 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>Maybe we should just have London, Saints, Bradford and Wigan playing each
>other in a Super Super league, I know it's ridiculous but at least it would
>be competetive.

>I dread to think what the effect of increasing the size of the league will
>have on playing standards in British RL.

Fair comment Geff. I don't really share the opinion of eg League
Express that more games = by definition a bad thing. But the player
pool simply isn't big enough to support more top teams. Better coaching
is certainly vital, but even more important is to have more people
playing the game in the first place.

Solution? Schools development, geographic expansion, etc (all the usual
stuff). South Wales should add a substantial pool of talent = how many
thousands of kids know how to run, pass, tackle etc in the Valleys?

Let's see more emphasis on junior football, and expansion of junior
setups. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that Lancashire, Yorkshire and
Cumbria don't have a monopoly on world-class athletes? Then how do we
produce all these fantastic players?

Adam