Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Cris Tou » Thu, 19 Mar 1998 04:00:00


I have just read on teletext that the RFL will discuss expanding the 2nd
Division by inviting teams from Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester (to name
but 3) to join in, presumably for next season.  The meeting will take place
on 1st April (ha ha).

Just two questions.  How on earth will teams from these areas be able to
compete against long established professionals (I use the term loosely in
Batley's case)?  How are they going to attract enough revenue to survive?

I fear that if this plan goes ahead, the teams concerned will only repeat
the failure of Southend Invicta (before my time admittedly) and Nottingham
Outlaws (they really were rubbish, attracted a handful of supporters and
could not even begin to compete).

Any thoughts?

Cris Tout.

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by WiganRLf » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>I have just read on teletext that the RFL will discuss expanding the 2nd
>Division by inviting teams from Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester (to name
>but 3) to join in, presumably for next season.  The meeting will take place
>on 1st April (ha ha).

They want to do it to increase the number of teams in the second division to
give more matches.  IMO what they should do is get rid of a few teams in the
second division based on some criteria and reorganise the 1st and 2dn into one
division.

I think this expansion plan is a totally potty idea and clearly shows up the
split between SLE and the RFL.

Quote:

>Just two questions.  How on earth will teams from these areas be able to
>compete against long established professionals (I use the term loosely in
>Batley's case)?  How are they going to attract enough revenue to survive?

Well the report said they would have to meet certain minimum criteria.  Who
knows what criteria and I bet it would have to be so low to get any in the comp
it won't be worth it.

Quote:
>I fear that if this plan goes ahead, the teams concerned will only repeat
>the failure of Southend Invicta (before my time admittedly) and Nottingham
>Outlaws (they really were rubbish, attracted a handful of supporters and
>could not even begin to compete).

>Any thoughts?

I agree but to my mind this idea is directly opposite to the franchise scheme
being proposed for SL.

Why would a club in Birmingham want to join the second division when one in
Leicester was applying for direct entry into SL?

Why would a new club join a division where the only way up out of it and
eventually into SL is by franchise?

How are these sides going to supply players for the team of sufficient
standard?

How are they going to be financially viable when I would guess the majority of
the 2nd division aren't anyway?

Will the new clubs get any Murdoch cash and if so will the other clubs in the
RFL be happy to see their share reduced again?

Its a half baked idea that IMO would simply introduce another bunch of going
nowhere financially dodgy clubs.  We have enough of those already.

Dave
--
Wigan RLFC - getting back to being Simply the best -

(remove the letter t from clarat if replying via email)

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Phil Arundel » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

I personally think its better to expand by starting teams in the second
division, rather than straight into Super League. If they can't compete in
the second, how would they compete in Super League. I know the argument is
that in SL they would attract better players, and get more money, but I
think that the areas need to have a gentle introduction in Rugby League.
Only my opinion....



Quote:
> I have just read on teletext that the RFL will discuss expanding the 2nd
> Division by inviting teams from Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester (to
name
> but 3) to join in, presumably for next season.  The meeting will take
place
> on 1st April (ha ha).

> Just two questions.  How on earth will teams from these areas be able to
> compete against long established professionals (I use the term loosely in
> Batley's case)?  How are they going to attract enough revenue to survive?

> I fear that if this plan goes ahead, the teams concerned will only repeat
> the failure of Southend Invicta (before my time admittedly) and
Nottingham
> Outlaws (they really were rubbish, attracted a handful of supporters and
> could not even begin to compete).

> Any thoughts?

> Cris Tout.


 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Steve Morri » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>I personally think its better to expand by starting teams in the second
>division, rather than straight into Super League. If they can't compete in
>the second, how would they compete in Super League. I know the argument is
>that in SL they would attract better players, and get more money, but I
>think that the areas need to have a gentle introduction in Rugby League.
>Only my opinion....

I agree in some senses if clubs want to be fast tracked a year or two
cutting there teeth will only help them get organised.

--
Steve

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by WiganRLf » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>I agree in some senses if clubs want to be fast tracked a year or two
>cutting there teeth will only help them get organised.

I just don't see how playing in run down stadia with about 600 fans watching is
going to do anything to encourage anyone to set up a professional team.

Not when the top end of the game are openly inviting franchises for direct
entry into the top flight.

IMO this is the RFL doing its own thing and is sending out confusing messages
to potential expansion areas.  Where do you want to start, in SL or in Div 2?

Dave
--
Wigan RLFC - getting back to being Simply the best -

(remove the letter t from clarat if replying via email)

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Steve Morri » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:


>>I agree in some senses if clubs want to be fast tracked a year or two
>>cutting there teeth will only help them get organised.

>I just don't see how playing in run down stadia with about 600 fans watching is
>going to do anything to encourage anyone to set up a professional team.

>Not when the top end of the game are openly inviting franchises for direct
>entry into the top flight.

>IMO this is the RFL doing its own thing and is sending out confusing messages
>to potential expansion areas.  Where do you want to start, in SL or in Div 2?

>Dave

On the contrary I think a qualifying season may help establish the
credentials of a lot of completely new clubs.

--
Steve

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Steve S » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00



| On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:37:44 +0000, Steve Morris

|
| >I agree in some senses if clubs want to be fast tracked a year or two
| >cutting there teeth will only help them get organised.
|
| I just don't see how playing in run down stadia with about 600 fans
watching is
| going to do anything to encourage anyone to set up a professional team.
|
| Not when the top end of the game are openly inviting franchises for
direct
| entry into the top flight.
|
| IMO this is the RFL doing its own thing and is sending out confusing
messages
| to potential expansion areas.  Where do you want to start, in SL or in
Div 2?
|
| Dave
| --
| Wigan RLFC - getting back to being Simply the best -
|
| (remove the letter t from clarat if replying via email)
|

But the point is, in order to achieve a place in Super League any new club
must provide evidence of infrastructure, stadia, and (more difficult)
Financial backing.

Without these criteria, the 2nd division is a way into professional Rugby
League for new areas.  This is also a way to introduce new clubs without
severely upsetting the existing ones.

Wigan and Salford are both in the Manchester area, Salford are closer to
the Centre of Manchester and as such Wigan must give way to Ipswich.  How
do Wigan feel.  I know this is far-fetched and will never happen.  But
then, judging by the RFL's past record, who knows. ;-]

Steve

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Dave Hunte » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:


>>On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:37:44 +0000, Steve Morris


Quote:

>>>I agree in some senses if clubs want to be fast tracked a year or
two
>>>cutting there teeth will only help them get organised.

>>I just don't see how playing in run down stadia with about 600 fans
watching is
>>going to do anything to encourage anyone to set up a professional
team.

>>Not when the top end of the game are openly inviting franchises for
direct
>>entry into the top flight.

>>IMO this is the RFL doing its own thing and is sending out

confusing
messages
Quote:
>>to potential expansion areas.  Where do you want to start, in SL or

in
Div 2?

Quote:

>>Dave

>On the contrary I think a qualifying season may help establish the
>credentials of a lot of completely new clubs.

I assume that these areas have been chosen because they already have
existing amateur clubs playing in the Southern Amateur Conference
(?).

If the clubs are going to be completely separate from the existing
Ipswich Rhinos, Worcester Royals and Birmingham ??? (fill in the
blank)
then maybe there is a case for them putting in a franchise
application to
join the Super League in 1999. On the other hand if they are going to
attempt to build upon the existing base (which must be better than
alienating them) then surely a slow beginning with some of the
amateur
sides team coming through to join the new second division clubs isn't
a
bad thing.

There may be problems with the amateurs skill levels and fitness but
surely committed local support and playing base are as important in
the
first few years as the ability of a team to recruit some near
retirement
SL player who is just looking to cash in? It's a little before my
time
but surely the problem with Southend (and definitely Nottingham which
I
do remember) was that there were no roots in the community and no
attepmt
to encourage any local amateur development. Even in 99 percent of the
amateur players never make the professional grade then they will
still
have an active interest in the support and generally help to raise
awareness of any new club.

Simply placing a club in an area unfamiliar with the sport will
always
struggle to gain any sort of support, media attention or financila
backing. All of which are essential for lonfg term success

Hope I didn't ramble to much

Dave H

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Chris Dickinso » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>I have just read on teletext that the RFL will discuss expanding the 2nd
>Division by inviting teams from Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester (to name
>but 3) to join in, presumably for next season.  The meeting will take place
>on 1st April (ha ha).

>Just two questions.  How on earth will teams from these areas be able to
>compete against long established professionals (I use the term loosely in
>Batley's case)?  How are they going to attract enough revenue to survive?

>I fear that if this plan goes ahead, the teams concerned will only repeat
>the failure of Southend Invicta (before my time admittedly) and Nottingham
>Outlaws (they really were rubbish, attracted a handful of supporters and
>could not even begin to compete).

>Any thoughts?

>Cris Tout.

You should not judge a club by the number of supporters it attracts at
first, teams need to grow. At least these plans involve an expansion at
the bottom of the league to allow new teams to compete with others at a
similar level.

Chris***inson

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by WiganRLf » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>On the contrary I think a qualifying season may help establish the
>credentials of a lot of completely new clubs.

With whom?

Dave

--
Wigan RLFC - getting back to being Simply the best -

(remove the letter t from clarat if replying via email)

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by WiganRLf » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>But the point is, in order to achieve a place in Super League any new club
>must provide evidence of infrastructure, stadia, and (more difficult)
>Financial backing.

ROTFL, Steve, prior to Branson coming on board, London IMO did not meet any of
these criteria but were elevated to SL for the obvious reason of expanding the
geographical scope of SL.

IMO expansion into new areas such as Brum with a second division team
immediately precludes the establishment of an SL side until, if ever, the new
side justifies its elevation to SL.

If London can be put into SL to geographically expand SL, I would expect
franchise bids to be accepted from expansion areas in 1999 with teams that have
absolutely no playing track record but that fulfil the franchise criteria.

Now you can debate if this is right or wrong if you like but it just seems to
me the RFL (as opposed to SL) are muddying the waters (maybe intentionally) and
throwing a potential spanner in the works of the method chosen to expand the
game, i.e. franchise applications direct to SL.

Quote:

>Without these criteria, the 2nd division is a way into professional Rugby
>League for new areas.

Why do people keep talking about the 2nd division as professional?  It isn't.

RL has never been fully professional for the vast majority of it's existence
and its only recently that all SL clubs went fully pro.

While there is a sense of fair play in all of us about the "right" way to do
things I just don't equate expansion into a competition as (in many ways) lowly
(not disrespect to the clubs intended) as the second division as
a brilliant idea.

I can see it now, Brums first game gets 1000 supporters in some little ground
with one "stand" and a hot dog stall.

Quote:
> This is also a way to introduce new clubs without
>severely upsetting the existing ones.

That's going to happen anyway.

Quote:
>Wigan and Salford are both in the Manchester area
> Salford are closer to
>the Centre of Manchester and as such Wigan must give way to Ipswich.  How
>do Wigan feel.

Well as all clubs (in theory) have to bid for a place in SL, anything could
happen but what has that got to do with adding clubs to the bottom of the pile?

Dave
--
Wigan RLFC - getting back to being Simply the best -

(remove the letter t from clarat if replying via email)

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Mr P Halliwel » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
> Why would a club in Birmingham want to join the second division when one in
> Leicester was applying for direct entry into SL?
> Why would a new club join a division where the only way up out of it and
> eventually into SL is by franchise?

Maybe just to test he waters without the big financila headaches of contrcating
superstars and big sponsorships. If there is interest then start
building for SL
in 2 seasons.

Quote:
> How are these sides going to supply players for the team of sufficient
> standard?

Maybe with around a dozen amateur or div 1/2 clubs around the area one SL club
club take the best players and make a decent SL team.  

Quote:
> How are they going to be financially viable when I would guess the majority of
> the 2nd division aren't anyway?

Corporate sponsors are not really behinf Sl in the Midlands area.  But with the
promise of the big coverage SL could provide they may be interested.  Alos SKY
would love to sell more dishes to the Midland area, and if they could
see a market
they would back (subsidise) a Midland Sl team.

Quote:
> Will the new clubs get any Murdoch cash and if so will the other clubs in the
> RFL be happy to see their share reduced again?

If they are in a division which gets SKY cash then they should get a share.
Maybe with new teams the money could be low at***and increase to the full
amount say over three seasons, based on player and support
improvements as well.

Quote:
> Its a half baked idea that IMO would simply introduce another bunch of going
> nowhere financially dodgy clubs.  We have enough of those already.

If it is done right, it doesn't have to be that way.

Quote:
> Dave

--

http://SportToday.org/;  
Official Wigan Warriors RLFC site.
Wigan Independant Supporters Association and Fanzine site.
Church of God UK WEB site
As important as the right to free speach is the right not to listen....!
 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Paul Matthe » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>I can see it now, Brums first game gets 1000 supporters in some little ground
>with one "stand" and a hot dog stall.

More than most Div2 games then :-)
--
Paul Matthews                          
http://www.triton.u-net.com

 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Steve Morri » Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>>But the point is, in order to achieve a place in Super League any new club
>>must provide evidence of infrastructure, stadia, and (more difficult)
>>Financial backing.

>ROTFL, Steve, prior to Branson coming on board, London IMO did not meet any of
>these criteria but were elevated to SL for the obvious reason of expanding the
>geographical scope of SL.

Sorry to ***in but: You are wrong on every count.

Infrastructure:- Long standing although modest amature RL does exist in
London and when London were brought into SL the whole youth development
programme was stepped up.

Stadia:- Playing at Crystal Palace then at Charlton I would have thought
these two venues would have met all necessary criteria.

Finance:- I think Barry Mantara had the necessary credentials and put
enough money in to take London to the next stage.

Quote:

>IMO expansion into new areas such as Brum with a second division team
>immediately precludes the establishment of an SL side until, if ever, the new
>side justifies its elevation to SL.

>If London can be put into SL to geographically expand SL, I would expect
>franchise bids to be accepted from expansion areas in 1999 with teams that have
>absolutely no playing track record but that fulfil the franchise criteria.

You seem to forget that London as a RL club has been going a few years
and even in the pre-Manatara days was the best (only) expansion success
outside the traditional areas.

Quote:

>Now you can debate if this is right or wrong if you like but it just seems to
>me the RFL (as opposed to SL) are muddying the waters (maybe intentionally) and
>throwing a potential spanner in the works of the method chosen to expand the
>game, i.e. franchise applications direct to SL.

>>Without these criteria, the 2nd division is a way into professional Rugby
>>League for new areas.

>Why do people keep talking about the 2nd division as professional?  It isn't.

I guess to draw the distinction between BARLA and RFL members.

Quote:

>RL has never been fully professional for the vast majority of it's existence
>and its only recently that all SL clubs went fully pro.

>While there is a sense of fair play in all of us about the "right" way to do
>things I just don't equate expansion into a competition as (in many ways) lowly
>(not disrespect to the clubs intended) as the second division as
>a brilliant idea.

>I can see it now, Brums first game gets 1000 supporters in some little ground
>with one "stand" and a hot dog stall.

>> This is also a way to introduce new clubs without
>>severely upsetting the existing ones.

>That's going to happen anyway.

>>Wigan and Salford are both in the Manchester area
>> Salford are closer to
>>the Centre of Manchester and as such Wigan must give way to Ipswich.  How
>>do Wigan feel.

>Well as all clubs (in theory) have to bid for a place in SL, anything could
>happen but what has that got to do with adding clubs to the bottom of the pile?

>Dave

--
Steve
 
 
 

Expansion to include Ipswich, Birmingham and Worcester?

Post by Steve Morri » Wed, 25 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:


>>On the contrary I think a qualifying season may help establish the
>>credentials of a lot of completely new clubs.

>With whom?

>Dave

With the people doling out the 800,000 (or whatever the hand out will
be by then). A competitive season will allow a commercial operation to
find its feet. How many times do you hear "well its all a learning
experience" as a euphemism for failure. Let people and organisations
without experience cut there teeth on something a little more testing
than a competitive bid.

With all respect giving 800,000 to existing teams in Divisions One and
Two is better than failed francises lasting one or two years.  

Steve