Foreigner rules Qs

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Mike » Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:21:51


I watched the Superbowl last week here in the UK for the first time in
about 15 years. Can I ask a couple of questions about the game just to
improve my understanding:-

1) I saw in the game that a 2 point conversion was attempted rather
than a PAT. I cant remember this from late 80s. Was this
introduced in 1990s? Is this just a case of the ball being
snapped at 2 or 3 yard line to see if a 2 point touchdown (by running
or passing) can be scored? Just out of interest, what is the success
rate (roughly) 1 chance in 3 or so?

2) If a match goes into overtime how long does this last and is it in
two equal periods rather than first team scores wins?

3) Just pure interest what is the record for the longest field
goal? I assume this is measured from the actual place of kick rather
then the line of scrimmage so that a ball snapped from the 20 yard
line is actually something like a 37 yard field goal (20 plus 10 for
the end zone plus 7 or so from line of scrimmage to where holder
places ball for kicker)?

Thanks for your help sorry if these questions a bit odd.

MIKE

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Robert Goodma » Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:45:04


Quote:
> I watched the Superbowl last week here in the UK for the first time in
> about 15 years. Can I ask a couple of questions about the game just to
> improve my understanding:-
> 1) I saw in the game that a 2 point conversion was attempted rather
> than a PAT. I can’t remember this from late 80’s. Was this
> introduced in 1990’s?

I can't remember the exact year, but it's been at least a decade now.  NFL
considered it for many years before.  The NCAA adopted it, then the AFL of
the 1960s, and the National Federation of State High School Ass'ns adopted
it as an optional rule for state associations.  After the merger the former
AFL owners brought it up many times, but were always outvoted.  The WFL had
an "action point".  Then Canadian football (both amateur & pro) adopted the
2 point option, and then USFL did.  See
http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/football/try.txt

Quote:
> Is this just a case of the ball being
> snapped at 2 or 3 yard line

The 2 -- unless the team trying it WANTS to spot it farther back, as they
frequently did before the goals were moved to the end lines.  In the 1970s
some minor pro & amateur circuits in the USA allowed only 1 point if the
ball was snapped from the 2 yard line, but 1 or 2 points if snapped from the
3.

Quote:
> to see if a 2 point touchdown (by running
> or passing) can be scored? Just out of interest, what is the success
> rate (roughly) – 1 chance in 3 or so?

Off the top of my head, I'd say about that.

Quote:
> 2) If a match goes into overtime how long does this last and is it in
> two equal periods rather than first team scores wins?

No, the NFL plays "sudden death" overtime for all games.  The regular season
ones go to a maximum of 1 extra period of 15 min., and in post-season it's
played in such periods as required until a score.  Canadian football
traditionally played equal periods to break ties, but lately the CFL (though
not Football Canada) has adopted a tiebreaking procedure like that
originally used by high schools, and later the NCAA and XFL.

Quote:
> 3) Just pure interest – what is the record for the longest field
> goal?

In the NFL, 63 yards, by place kick, twice.  In the NAIA, 69 yards place
kick; in the NCAA, 67 yards place kick.  Longest drop goal in NCAA was 63
yards.  (I don't know if there are separate records for awarded kicks --
free kicks from the mark of a fair catch -- as opposed to goals scored "from
the field".  North American football has never had a penalty kick.)

Quote:
> I assume this is measured from the actual place of kick rather
> then the line of scrimmage

It's measured from the place of the kick to the line the goal is on (the
goal line or the end line, depending on what rules were being played at the
time).  Additional distance for the angle is not given.  It's rounded down
to the nearest yard.

Robert

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by NZDud » Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:21:36

1) It was re-introduced in the 1990's to add a competitive flair to the game
(and so games would remain competitive even w/ what used to traditionally be
a two score lead of 8 - 11 points).  IIRC the avg. for making them is only
slightly above 20% (apprx 22.something I think).  And yes this is where as
in college football, instead of kicking the 1 point PAT they line-up and run
a play which must get into the endzone for 2 points.  And yes I believe they
line-up apprx 3 yards away.

2) OT lasts until the first team scores.  During the regular season games
can end in a tie if neither team scores during a 15 minute OT period.
During the playoffs however, theformat is sudden death with 15 minute
periods added until someone finally scores.  As a note there was a double OT
game this post-season.

3) Firstly to explain field goal distance it is line of scrimmage plus 17
yards ( 10 for the depth of endzone, plus 7 for the spot of the kick).  So a
kick from the 40 yard line is in effect a 57 yard kick and is measured as
such.  The longest kick in the league history is 63 yards, been done twice
by Tom Dempsey of the NO Saints and Jason Elam (IIRC) of the Denver Broncos.

NZD


Quote:
> I watched the Superbowl last week here in the UK for the first time in
> about 15 years. Can I ask a couple of questions about the game just to
> improve my understanding:-

> 1) I saw in the game that a 2 point conversion was attempted rather
> than a PAT. I can’t remember this from late 80’s. Was this
> introduced in 1990’s? Is this just a case of the ball being
> snapped at 2 or 3 yard line to see if a 2 point touchdown (by running
> or passing) can be scored? Just out of interest, what is the success
> rate (roughly) – 1 chance in 3 or so?

> 2) If a match goes into overtime how long does this last and is it in
> two equal periods rather than first team scores wins?

> 3) Just pure interest – what is the record for the longest field
> goal? I assume this is measured from the actual place of kick rather
> then the line of scrimmage so that a ball snapped from the 20 yard
> line is actually something like a 37 yard field goal (20 plus 10 for
> the end zone plus 7 or so from line of scrimmage to where holder
> places ball for kicker)?

> Thanks for your help – sorry if these questions a bit odd.

> MIKE


 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Pax » Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:09:50

 And yes I believe they

Quote:
> line-up apprx 3 yards away.

Nope, it's still the 2 yard line wether they go for 2 or kick for 1.

  The longest kick in the league history is 63 yards, been done twice

Quote:
> by Tom Dempsey of the NO Saints and Jason Elam (IIRC) of the Denver

Broncos.

Tom Dempsey (didn't he kick for the Rams?) held the record at 63 since the
70's before being tied by..... Elam? I remember seeing that kick.....
Dempsey only had half a foot and kicked with a square shoe. He also kicked
straight on 'American Style', which you don't see in the NFL anymore... now
they all kick 'soccer style'.

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Gary Rose » Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:08:49


Quote:


> > 1) I saw in the game that a 2 point conversion was attempted rather
> > than a PAT. I can’t remember this from late 80’s. Was this
> > introduced in 1990’s?

> I can't remember the exact year, but it's been at least a decade now.  NFL
> considered it for many years before.  The NCAA adopted it, then the AFL of
> the 1960s, and the National Federation of State High School Ass'ns adopted
> it as an optional rule for state associations.  After the merger the
former
> AFL owners brought it up many times, but were always outvoted.  The WFL
had
> an "action point".  Then Canadian football (both amateur & pro) adopted
the
> 2 point option, and then USFL did.  See
> http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/football/try.txt

> > Is this just a case of the ball being
> > snapped at 2 or 3 yard line

> The 2 -- unless the team trying it WANTS to spot it farther back, as they
> frequently did before the goals were moved to the end lines.  In the 1970s
> some minor pro & amateur circuits in the USA allowed only 1 point if the
> ball was snapped from the 2 yard line, but 1 or 2 points if snapped from
the
> 3.

The NFL never had the 2-point option when the goalposts were on the goal
line; in college football they were always on the end line (at least as far
back as I can remember, late 50s or so).  I guess the AFL had the 2-point
option with goalposts on the goal line.  Do you remember when the pros
moved the goalposts back?  I think it was early '70s but I don't
remember for sure.

- Gary Rosen

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Mike » Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:19:29

Thanks for your help guys. Much appreciated.

MIKE

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Mike » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:14:34

Quick followup on the two-point conversions:

The rule was officially adopted in 1994.

Based on a bit of googling, the estimates given in this thread
on the succes rate were quite low (I saw numbers from 20 to 33%).
The only official numbers I could find were 39% in 1998 and 43%
in 1999; I also saw the figures 37% and 46%.  Based on this, I'd
guesstimate it in the low 40's.

This still makes it a bad percentage play (kicks are at 99%), but
not so horrible as most color commentators would have you believe.

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Robert Goodma » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:04:23


Quote:
> > > Is this just a case of the ball being
> > > snapped at 2 or 3 yard line
> > The 2 -- unless the team trying it WANTS to spot it farther back, as
they
> > frequently did before the goals were moved to the end lines.  In the
1970s
> > some minor pro & amateur circuits in the USA allowed only 1 point if the
> > ball was snapped from the 2 yard line, but 1 or 2 points if snapped from
> the
> > 3.
> The NFL never had the 2-point option when the goalposts were on the goal
> line;

Yes, and during that time they often voluntarily snapped the ball from the 3
so they could have a 7-yard snap and place the ball on the 10.

Quote:
> in college football they were always on the end line (at least as far
> back as I can remember, late 50s or so).

I don't blame you that you can't remember back to before about 1912, when
they were on the goal line.

Quote:
>  I guess the AFL had the 2-point
> option with goalposts on the goal line.

Yes.  That's the 1960s AFL; there have been other "American Football
League"s and now the Arena Football League is also abbreviated "AFL".

Quote:
> Do you remember when the pros
> moved the goalposts back?  I think it was early '70s but I don't
> remember for sure.

Depends what you mean by "back".  The NFL inherited NCAA rules at a time the
NCAA had already moved the goals from the goal line to the (newly-created)
end line.  About 1937 the NFL moved the goals "back" (forward) to the goal
line, then in 1974 (responding to pressure from the WFL) back to the end
line.

Robert

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Robert Goodma » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:15:19


Quote:
>  And yes I believe they
> > line-up apprx 3 yards away.
> Nope, it's still the 2 yard line wether they go for 2 or kick for 1.

But they're ALLOWED to snap from anywhere on OR BEHIND the designated line
(which may be moved by penalty) and between the inbounds lines (hash marks).
http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/football/try.txt for the history of the
try for point(s).

Quote:
>   The longest kick in the league history is 63 yards, been done twice
> > by Tom Dempsey of the NO Saints and Jason Elam (IIRC) of the Denver
> Broncos.
> Tom Dempsey (didn't he kick for the Rams?)

At least at the time of the record-setting kick, it was for the Saints,
against the Lions.

Quote:
> held the record at 63 since the
> 70's before being tied by..... Elam? I remember seeing that kick.....
> Dempsey only had half a foot and kicked with a square shoe. He also kicked
> straight on 'American Style', which you don't see in the NFL anymore...
now
> they all kick 'soccer style'.

Heh.  The funny thing about calling it "American style" is that in rugby,
too, place kicks were then commonly taken with the toe, and now "soccer
style" (which in most of the English-writing world they refer to as "around
the bend") with the instep.  Clearest way to refer to the old style would be
"with the toes".

There was a kicker ~25 years ago who had his own style wherein contact with
the ball was made with the foot everted, such that the approach was
soccer-style but much of the ball contact was with the top of the foot
rather than the instep.  Didn't catch on, I guess.

An interesting feature of kicking with the toes was that place kicking
specialists in American football wore a kicking shoe with a flattened and
broadened front -- a striking surface like that of a golf club.  A clip-on
version was developed, and later banned by IIRC the NCAA as dangerous.  So
Dempsey's shoe was just a shorter version of the common place kicking shoe.

Robert

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Gary Rose » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:21:23


Quote:
> Quick followup on the two-point conversions:

> The rule was officially adopted in 1994.

> Based on a bit of googling, the estimates given in this thread
> on the succes rate were quite low (I saw numbers from 20 to 33%).
> The only official numbers I could find were 39% in 1998 and 43%
> in 1999; I also saw the figures 37% and 46%.  Based on this, I'd
> guesstimate it in the low 40's.

> This still makes it a bad percentage play (kicks are at 99%), but
> not so horrible as most color commentators would have you believe.

There's a chart (or something) that tells you when to go for 2 based
on whether it helps you more as opposed to going for only 1 - e. g.
if you're 5 points behind after a TD, 1 point doesn't help much
(still need another TD) but 2 points gets you within a FG.  That
was the situation Carolina was in during the SB.  The question is,
does it make sense to follow this when there's a lot of time
left in the game and scores are still likely to be traded back and
forth.  If that's the case, you should always go for the best
percentage play - i.e. kick for the (almost) sure 1 pt.

- Gary Rosen

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Mike » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:10:37

Thanks again for the feedback - has improved my understanding.

Can I ask two other things that are not clear (and if anyone can
recommend a good rules site/bbok I'd be interested). Sorry if this a
bit basic.

1) If a team misses a FG, does the other team restart from 20 yard
line or from line of scrimmage? Do they get choice?

2) If a defending team intercepts the ball in their own end zone, can
they "ground" the ball or are they obliged to try and advance as far
up the field as possible? What happends if they intercept the ball and
are then tackled in their own end zone?

Thanks again.

MIKE

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Andre » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:53:36


I am not an expert, being in the UK myself, but from what I have seen
in the game Madden 2004:

Quote:
>1) If a team misses a FG, does the other team restart from 20 yard
>line or from line of scrimmage? Do they get choice?

From the line of scimmage.

Quote:
>2) If a defending team intercepts the ball in their own end zone, can
>they "ground" the ball or are they obliged to try and advance as far
>up the field as possible? What happends if they intercept the ball and
>are then tackled in their own end zone?

It is touched back to the 20 yard line I think.
--

Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevent text.
Check groups.google.com before asking a question.
 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Paul Frankenstei » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:40:39


* 1) If a team misses a FG, does the other team restart from 20 yard
* line or from line of scrimmage? Do they get choice?

That depends on where the kick was attempted from. For kicks of less than 30
yards (i.e. the spot of the kick is inside the 20 yard-line), the ball is
brought back to the twenty. For kicks longer than 30 yards, the ball is
placed at the spot of the kick. For example, let's say the Cardinals have
the ball on the Seahawks' 35 yard-line. If they attempt a field goal from
there, it will be a 52-yard attempt (kick from the Seahawks' 42). If they
miss, then the Seahawks get the ball on their own 42.

* 2) If a defending team intercepts the ball in their own end zone, can
* they "ground" the ball or are they obliged to try and advance as far
* up the field as possible? What happends if they intercept the ball and
* are then tackled in their own end zone?

As long as the ball doesn't cross the plane of the goal-line, then it is a
touchback and the ball is brought out to the 20 yard-line.

If the ball is taken out of then endzone and then brought back in, where it
is downed, then that's a safety.

p

--
paulf | Some days you're the windshield.

panix | --------------------------------
 .com | <http://paulfrankenstein.org/>

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Robert Goodma » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:24:25


Quote:
> > The rule was officially adopted in 1994.
> > Based on a bit of googling, the estimates given in this thread
> > on the succes rate were quite low (I saw numbers from 20 to 33%).
> > The only official numbers I could find were 39% in 1998 and 43%
> > in 1999; I also saw the figures 37% and 46%.  Based on this, I'd
> > guesstimate it in the low 40's.
> > This still makes it a bad percentage play (kicks are at 99%), but
> > not so horrible as most color commentators would have you believe.
> There's a chart (or something) that tells you when to go for 2 based
> on whether it helps you more as opposed to going for only 1 - e. g.
> if you're 5 points behind after a TD, 1 point doesn't help much
> (still need another TD) but 2 points gets you within a FG.  That
> was the situation Carolina was in during the SB.  The question is,
> does it make sense to follow this when there's a lot of time
> left in the game and scores are still likely to be traded back and
> forth.  If that's the case, you should always go for the best
> percentage play - i.e. kick for the (almost) sure 1 pt.

An interesting tidbit I learned a few years ago (after
http://users.bestweb.net/~robgood/football/try.txt was written) is that when
the NCAA adopted it (1958 IIRC, or maybe a year or 2 later), they mostly
expected going for 2 to become the norm!  That's the reason they moved the
spot from the 2 to the 3 yard line, but observers thought that even iwth
that, teams would go for 2 more often than 1.  When the AFL was founded in
1960 with the 2 pt. conversion (from the 2 yard line), probably many were
hoping teams would use it to break ties.  However, it soon became apparent
that it was used much more often to MAKE ties than to gamble and break them.
Note that at that time regular season games did not go into overtime to
break ties.

Robert

 
 
 

Foreigner rules Qs

Post by Robert Goodma » Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:32:21


Quote:
> 1) If a team misses a FG, does the other team restart from 20 yard
> line or from line of scrimmage? Do they get choice?

Under current NFL rules, if a "field goal attempt" (I don't know if NFL ever
adopted a definition of such, but it's pretty obvious when a place kick --
or a drop, if they'd ever take one -- is being attempted at goal) has the
kick end untouched by the receiving team on team R's side of the neutral
zone, the next spot is the spot the kick was taken from, or the 20 yard
line, whichever is farther from R's goal line.  Otherwise it's just like any
other scrimmage or free kick.

Quote:
> 2) If a defending team intercepts the ball in their own end zone, can
> they "ground" the ball

Yes.

Quote:
> or are they obliged to try and advance as far
> up the field as possible?

No.

Quote:
> What happends if they intercept the ball and
> are then tackled in their own end zone?

It's a touchback.  The other team was responsible for putting the ball
beyond the goal line.

Robert