do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by LOREN W. DICKS » Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:33:00


Quote:

>>Some poeple argueing about the potential drug abuse of the chinese women
>>swimmers by asking the question why the chinese male swimmers are less
>>stronger. Actually, this is a fact not only in the swimming event. Just
>>look at the other events: current world chess women champion, volleyball
>>(former champion team), bascketball (vice world champion), table tennis,
>>soccer, hockey... In the most of the sport events, chinese women are much
>>*** than chinese men. I think there're three major reasons attibuted
>>to this phenomenon: 1) chinese women generally working harder than
>>chinese men 2) chinese women enjoy in many cases a RELATIVELY better
>>social status in comparison to their counterparts in other countries.
>>At least as far as sport is concerning, the goverment takes the women
>>disciplines as same seriously as the men. 3) racial physical differences
>>are bigger in men than in women.
>    That would be fine, in and of itself.  But why haven't the men made
>the sudden, incredible *improvement* that the women have?  Does anyone have
>old and new times to compare (a complete listing from some particular world-
>class competition from a few years ago and recently) for the men?  If it's
>training and hard work then they should have made the same kind of gains.  
>There will be some improvement every year anyway, but it would be obvious.  
>I'd really like someone to post such results if they happen to know that the
>men have come a long way (and maybe just have still farther to go).  That
>would put my mind at ease once and for all.
>Steve-O
>--
>begin 644 newsig.gif

>M>-U=TPA]XOF9$(>VZ?:JV1IG%F?E]CR)%(-;2("LWVI3.F$H.X:3MDS.=K!;
>..Z%5ALJ)([3!F110``#L`
>`

        It took me about an hour to read all the arguing about chinese women's
WC performance. The two sides can't get answers to one question, here I would
like to offer some information, may be helpful for your argument, whichever
side you are.
        I am an age-group swimming coach for years. I think we should wait to
see about this drug enhancing issue for a few years.
        Many of us wonder why Chinese women are more *** in the pools so
as to on the tracks, than their men. After I read some back issues of Asian
sports magazines, I think I found the answer.
        The last ten years, China has become the No.1 sports super power in
Asia, surpass Japan. China is really booming in a wide range of sports events
and catching up at an amazing speed. But almost all the events, women seem do
much better than their male counterpart. Among them, volley-ball, basketball,
soccer, track and field, swimming, fencing, etc. This also happen in their
traditional events like table tennis and badminton.
        I don't know much about anything except swimming. I found there is a
reason for their women do better. If you look at competition in Asia, both of
teams, men and women, are front runners. On men side, they have 9 Asian records
and more than a dozen Asian champions. But their times are just not good enough
for a medal in the world. I also looked at some of their swimmers' personal
data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7". But their top female swimmers are
average at 1.73m(5'7" 1/2), some 1.77m which is almost as tall as the our female
swimmers. This make a bigger difference in swimming. Say Chinese man, they have
a 6-8" disadvantage, plus the arm length they are almost competing at about 1
foot disadvatage at the world level. Since swimming races have turns in the
pool, each turn the 1-foot shorter swimmer has to move 2 feet more through the
water, even 50m race, which swimmer doesn't turn in the pool, the 1-foot taller
swimmer still has a 0.33 second advantage at the beginning of the race because
of his longer body. Plus taller swimmers will have bigger palms and longer arms
which make their strokes much more powerful than the shorter competitors. The
same thing holds true in track and field, of which longer legs and arms are
always at a great advantage. Even so, The Chinese have ***-age male swimmers
now who are much taller, and catching up the world. So watch out. They are just
not mature enough to compete at the world level yet, like their women
teammates, who reach their peaks at an early age of 16-18 years old. But they
are certainly talented, and scary.
        I don't know whether their women are using *** or not. But until you
see the Asian males are as tall as the westners, you can never accuse their drug
hencing just by the better female performance.
        No flame please. Maybe they are using ***, maybe not, but men and
women whould be in the same program, don't you think?
        Things will become real suspicious when a Chinese 1-foot shorter male
swimmer is beating the westers, and set the world record. :-)

Loren  

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Shenwei Q » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 04:40:10

Quote:
> for a medal in the world. I also looked at some of their swimmers' personal
> data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
> champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
> male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7". But their top female swimmers are
> average at 1.73m(5'7" 1/2), some 1.77m which is almost as tall as the our female
> swimmers. This make a bigger difference in swimming. Say Chinese man, they have
> a 6-8" disadvantage, plus the arm length they are almost competing at about 1
> foot disadvatage at the world level. Since swimming races have turns in the
> pool, each turn the 1-foot shorter swimmer has to move 2 feet more through the
> water, even 50m race, which swimmer doesn't turn in the pool, the 1-foot taller
> swimmer still has a 0.33 second advantage at the beginning of the race because
> of his longer body. Plus taller swimmers will have bigger palms and longer arms
> which make their strokes much more powerful than the shorter competitors. The
> same thing holds true in track and field, of which longer legs and arms are
> always at a great advantage. Even so, The Chinese have ***-age male swimmers
> now who are much taller, and catching up the world. So watch out. They are just
> not mature enough to compete at the world level yet, like their women
> teammates, who reach their peaks at an early age of 16-18 years old. But they
> are certainly talented, and scary.

Good point here. Not so long ago when I was still in China, I read an
article about why chinese male athletes did so poor in world competition,
especially in track and field, and swimming. The main point of that article
argues that the *** level of male hormones chinese male has is much lower
than that of male westerners, this difference is not so dramatic between
female chinese and female westerners. This is examplified by the fact that
western males have much more body hairs than chinese males, very few
chinese males would have chest hairs. But if you look at the body of both
western females and chinese females (if they let you, :-).), you wouldnt
see much difference in terms of body hair.

Yes, they do have some good male swimmers, they are yound and very tall
(over 1.90m), but the reason they didnt come to the WC is that Asia Games
is just one month away, they have to save themselves to beat the Japanese
counterparts. Those women already top the world, they surely will beat the
other asian female swimmers.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>    I don't know whether their women are using *** or not. But until you
> see the Asian males are as tall as the westners, you can never accuse their drug
> hencing just by the better female performance.
>    No flame please. Maybe they are using ***, maybe not, but men and
> women whould be in the same program, don't you think?
>    Things will become real suspicious when a Chinese 1-foot shorter male
> swimmer is beating the westers, and set the world record. :-)

> Loren  


 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Adour Vahe Kabaki » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 10:17:29


Quote:

> But if you look at the body of both
>western females and chinese females (if they let you, :-).), you wouldnt
>see much difference in terms of body hair.

     Really?  I am afraid some people might disagree with you.  The
topic of Chinese female swimmers has produced some really strange
threads, hasn't it? ;-)

-adour

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Shenwei Q » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 11:31:27


Quote:



> > But if you look at the body of both
> >western females and chinese females (if they let you, :-).), you wouldnt
> >see much difference in terms of body hair.

>      Really?  I am afraid some people might disagree with you.  The
> topic of Chinese female swimmers has produced some really strange
> threads, hasn't it? ;-)

> -adour

Are you implying that western females have body hairs on their chests and
backs?
Sorry, I didnt know that before.

sq

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Andy Y. » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 12:51:39

I have to say that the research should be done by those
journalists who jump into conclusion (e.g., popped out of
nowhere) and US swimming community. Some relevant research
questions: why do the US swimmers fall behind, why the Chinese
female swimmers are so successful (whether trainning method
or the combination of drug and trainning), how can they adopt
some of practice (include having undetectable *** :-))?

As I can recall, these are the questions often raised in the
Chinese sports reporting when they are the students in almost
every fields of sports. The admiration raised about the American
female swimmers in the Chinese news makes an sharp contrast
to that of their American counterpart. Yes, the Chinese press
is not free but still I think that the American sports reporters
may have to learn one or two from their Chinese colleagues about
modesty, professionalism, objectivity, and an open mind to
learn.

James's analogy between the Chinese and Eastern German is very
enlightening, and provide me a historical perspective (I was
born in 63). But I still have some burning questions in mind :-),
I hope that James can enlighten me. If the Chinese program is
state sponsored (drug-doping), I would expect them to have
few but excellent swimmers. After all, the bigger a drug-doping
program, the more likely that it is going to leak given enough
financial incentive. Unless the athletes are unkowningly taking
***. Any potential defector(s) can get handsome monetary reward
(with evidence of course) given the widespread suspicion and
media attention. After all, China is no longer a complete closed
country (as in the case of Eastern Germany). In fact, some of the
swimmers are already enrolled in the US universities. Of course,
I can not rule out that possibility that it is a state-sponsored
program. But personally I would think that it may be more like
the situation in the US that individual swimmers may seek ***
with or without consent from their coaches. Since the financial
reward for the Chinese swimmers are so large - probably
equivalent to that of the NBA - according to the Chinese
standard, it is entirely possible that some athletes may risk
being caught by taking ***. But again, if the US swimmers can
get as much as their NBA stars, I am pretty sure that some
of them may risk their reputations. James's argument seems to
lie in the system while I tend to believe the individual
incentive which is converging rapidly with that of the US side
may have sth. to do with drug doping IF there is one.

The revelation in the Eastern German case is very indicative
that if you have nothing to lose but everything to gain by
exposing doping, people will come out. In case that we find
a fantastic country which is ten times richer than the US
and is willing to buy the story that US swimming team used
to doping, I am not sure if they can not get the story
whether true or made-up. Since we are pretty sure that in
our lifetime, it may be unlikely to have this scenario
, therefore, we have no way to suspect the US system.  
Well, what I want to illustrate is that suspicion on a
sports program is a two-way street if both sides are getting
hot and emotionally charged.

Do some research!!!

BTW, I admire Loren's effort. I hope that both sides
can do the same if you guys want to argue in a level
plain field.

Andy


 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Adour Vahe Kabaki » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:40:13


Quote:

>Are you implying that western females have body hairs on their chests and
>backs?
>Sorry, I didnt know that before.

     Some do, just like some Chinese women have more body hair then
others.  Most deceiving are blondes.  I have seen some women in the
summer clad in open back T-shirts exposing a golden fuzz that would
put me to shame :-) (I am male).  Just be more attentive and you will
soon find out what I am talking about.

-adour

ps:  Sorry if my completely off topic post seemed a little tasteless to
     some rec.swimmers, but I couldn't resist "enlightening" Shenwei.

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Adour Vahe Kabaki » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 14:52:25



Quote:
> Unless the athletes are unkowningly taking ***.

     IF there is indeed a state sponsored drug-doping program, it is
very likely that the swimmers themselves don't know exactly what is
being given to them and what effects these *** can have.  A while
ago, I saw a PBS or Discovery program about the East German women
swimmers.  Many of them appeared in interviews where they described
how they were asked to take some "supplements."  They said they
noticed strange changes in their bodies and that they realized these
supplements weren't just vitamins, but they didn't know all the
details.  They came out after the end of the cold war because many had
developed health problems such as sterility and damaged kidneys.  But
as easily impressionable 16-18 year olds in a totalitarian country,
they were very unlikely to openly question what was being done to
them, and the same can be said about the young Chinese swimmers.

     As an aside, I believe it is less likely to have a state
sponsored drug-doping program in the a democracy than in an autocracy.
Now that the adverse effects of steroid use are well documented, a
U.S. doctor or coach, for example, would be crazy to run such a
doping program.  If the athletes later develop health problems - a
very likely possibility - they could sue the hell out of the coaches,
doctors and even the government.  The athlete living under a
totalitarian regime does not have such recourses.  The East German
women didn't.

Quote:
>Any potential defector(s) can get handsome monetary reward
>(with evidence of course) given the widespread suspicion and
>media attention.

     True.  But would that be worth having to leave your country,
letting behind your friends and family at the mercy of retaliation,
and basically restarting life in a very different new country?

Quote:
>.... James's argument seems to
>lie in the system while I tend to believe the individual
>incentive which is converging rapidly with that of the US side
>may have sth. to do with drug doping IF there is one.

    Both arguments have merit, and let us keep in mind what you said
about the alleged widespread drug use: "IF there is one."  All I can
say myself is that we cannot reasonably completely rule out the
possibility.

-adour

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Joe Hua » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 16:29:48


Quote:
>    It took me about an hour to read all the arguing about chinese women's
>WC performance. The two sides can't get answers to one question, here I would
>like to offer some information, may be helpful for your argument, whichever
>side you are.
>    Many of us wonder why Chinese women are more *** in the pools so
>as to on the tracks, than their men. After I read some back issues of Asian
>sports magazines, I think I found the answer.
>    I don't know much about anything except swimming. I found there is a
>reason for their women do better. If you look at competition in Asia, both of
>teams, men and women, are front runners. ...
>.. I also looked at some of their swimmers' personal
>data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
>champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
>male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7".

Loren,

I found your article very interesting and free from cant. I've wondered
whether among Asians female/male differences are not as accentuated as
in Caucasian populations - thus working to the advantage of the women
and the disadvantage of the men - but I never thought of it in terms
of the men simply being too short and thus having to swim further in
the pool!  That's quite thought provoking. I also wonder what effect
the size of the hand and feet have on speed. Most Asians, including
me, are small-boned.  Any thoughts ?

Joe Huang

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Shenwei Q » Tue, 13 Sep 1994 23:15:56


Quote:



> >Are you implying that western females have body hairs on their chests and
> >backs?
> >Sorry, I didnt know that before.

>      Some do, just like some Chinese women have more body hair then
> others.  Most deceiving are blondes.  I have seen some women in the
> summer clad in open back T-shirts exposing a golden fuzz that would
> put me to shame :-) (I am male).  Just be more attentive and you will
> soon find out what I am talking about.

> -adour

> ps:  Sorry if my completely off topic post seemed a little tasteless to
>      some rec.swimmers, but I couldn't resist "enlightening" Shenwei.

Yes, I agree, it is too far off now.

sq

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by James G. Ack » Wed, 14 Sep 1994 00:11:30


        I'll try to answer briefly.  Just remember, in spite of
my avid reading on the subject, I'm not an expert.

: James's analogy between the Chinese and Eastern German is very
: enlightening, and provide me a historical perspective (I was
: born in 63). But I still have some burning questions in mind :-),
: I hope that James can enlighten me. If the Chinese program is
: state sponsored (drug-doping), I would expect them to have
: few but excellent swimmers. After all, the bigger a drug-doping

        According to the documents released from the "former"
East Germany, thousands of athletes were involved.  Steroids, and
other ***, do not by themselves make a world-class athlete.  
There has to be talent, and hard work, as well.  But if you have
someone who _without the use of performance-enhancing substances_
(PES) would be in the top 16 in the world, using the *** can
put them into the top 3.

: program, the more likely that it is going to leak given enough
: financial incentive. Unless the athletes are unkowningly taking
: ***. Any potential defector(s) can get handsome monetary reward
: (with evidence of course) given the widespread suspicion and
: media attention. After all, China is no longer a complete closed

        Rica Reinisch (I think) was the first defector from the DDR
Wundermachen swimmers.   I saw one article about her, and she's
been referred to again more recently.
        Sad to say, unless a gold-medalist tests positive, it's
not big news.
        As someone else pointed out, though the coaches and
drug experts knew the athletes were taking ***, the athletes
just ate and swallowed what they were told to take.  (in the DDR)

: country (as in the case of Eastern Germany). In fact, some of the
: swimmers are already enrolled in the US universities. Of course,
: I can not rule out that possibility that it is a state-sponsored
: program. But personally I would think that it may be more like
: the situation in the US that individual swimmers may seek ***
: with or without consent from their coaches. Since the financial
: reward for the Chinese swimmers are so large - probably
: equivalent to that of the NBA - according to the Chinese
: standard, it is entirely possible that some athletes may risk
: being caught by taking ***. But again, if the US swimmers can
: get as much as their NBA stars, I am pretty sure that some

        No doubt.  The fact that a few have cheated for much
smaller potential $$ is indicative.

: of them may risk their reputations. James's argument seems to
: lie in the system while I tend to believe the individual
: incentive which is converging rapidly with that of the US side
: may have sth. to do with drug doping IF there is one.

        As I said before, the DDR had plenty of incentive to be a
top member of the athletic community.

===============================================
|  James G. Acker                             |

===============================================
All comments are the personal opinion of the writer
and do not constitute policy and/or opinion of government
or corporate entities.

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Michael Morg » Wed, 14 Sep 1994 04:13:59



[snip]

Quote:
>data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
>champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
>male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7". But their top female swimmers are

Hmmn, where did you come up with these numbers? The average world class
male swimmers are 6'5" to 6'7"? That seems a bit on the tall side. I mean,
look at Matt Biondi. He's about 6'6" and your saying that he's AVERAGE?
I don't think so. I would say the average is maybe 6' - 6'3". Granted
there are some pretty big swimmers out there, but there are also some
who are not exactly giants (Mike Barrowman, Dave Berkoff, ...). This
turns into only a 1-4" advantage, hardly an imposing difference.

Quote:

>Loren  

myke morgan
 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Boob » Wed, 14 Sep 1994 02:35:57


Quote:





> > > But if you look at the body of both
> > >western females and chinese females (if they let you, :-).), you wouldnt
> > >see much difference in terms of body hair.

> >      Really?  I am afraid some people might disagree with you.  The
> > topic of Chinese female swimmers has produced some really strange
> > threads, hasn't it? ;-)

> > -adour

> Are you implying that western females have body hairs on their chests and
> backs?
> Sorry, I didnt know that before.

> sq

And legs too. Western women always shove their legs and Inever heard any
Chinese woman does so.

--

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by Jun Zh » Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:30:53

: > for a medal in the world. I also looked at some of their swimmers' personal
: > data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
: > champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
: > male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7". But their top female swimmers are
: > average at 1.73m(5'7" 1/2), some 1.77m which is almost as tall as the our female
: > swimmers. This make a bigger difference in swimming. Say Chinese man, they have
: > a 6-8" disadvantage, plus the arm length they are almost competing at about 1
: > foot disadvatage at the world level. Since swimming races have turns in the
: > pool, each turn the 1-foot shorter swimmer has to move 2 feet more through the
: > water, even 50m race, which swimmer doesn't turn in the pool, the 1-foot taller
: > swimmer still has a 0.33 second advantage at the beginning of the race because
: > of his longer body. Plus taller swimmers will have bigger palms and longer arms
: > which make their strokes much more powerful than the shorter competitors. The
: > same thing holds true in track and field, of which longer legs and arms are
: > always at a great advantage. Even so, The Chinese have ***-age male swimmers
: > now who are much taller, and catching up the world. So watch out. They are just
: > not mature enough to compete at the world level yet, like their women
: > teammates, who reach their peaks at an early age of 16-18 years old. But they
: > are certainly talented, and scary.

: Good point here. Not so long ago when I was still in China, I read an
: article about why chinese male athletes did so poor in world competition,
: especially in track and field, and swimming. The main point of that article
: argues that the *** level of male hormones chinese male has is much lower
: than that of male westerners, this difference is not so dramatic between
: female chinese and female westerners. This is examplified by the fact that
: western males have much more body hairs than chinese males, very few
: chinese males would have chest hairs. But if you look at the body of both
: western females and chinese females (if they let you, :-).), you wouldnt
: see much difference in terms of body hair.

Quite a few years back when I was in China, I read an article saying the similar
thing.  The difference in *** male hormone level between chinese female athletes
and their western counterparts was about 70%, it said, if I remember right.
On the other hand, the gap between male atheletes with regards to this hormone thing
was considerably bigger.  I don't remember the figure the article gave.

I don't think it is a good idea to use the body hair quality as an evidence of
one's male hormone level:)  Ever see a chinese woman shave her legs?

: Yes, they do have some good male swimmers, they are yound and very tall
: (over 1.90m), but the reason they didnt come to the WC is that Asia Games
: is just one month away, they have to save themselves to beat the Japanese
: counterparts. Those women already top the world, they surely will beat the
: other asian female swimmers.

: >  I don't know whether their women are using *** or not. But until you
: > see the Asian males are as tall as the westners, you can never accuse their drug
: > hencing just by the better female performance.
: >  No flame please. Maybe they are using ***, maybe not, but men and
: > women whould be in the same program, don't you think?
: >  Things will become real suspicious when a Chinese 1-foot shorter male
: > swimmer is beating the westers, and set the world record. :-)
: >
: > Loren  

 
 
 

do some research, before making your point about Chinese women

Post by z.. » Thu, 15 Sep 1994 07:17:25

Quote:
>>data which told the story: their male swimmers are too short!! Their Asian
>>champions are average about 1.80m(5'11") tall, much shorter than the world top
>>male swimmers who average about 6'5" to 6'7". But their top female swimmers are
>Hmmn, where did you come up with these numbers? The average world class
>male swimmers are 6'5" to 6'7"? That seems a bit on the tall side. I mean,
>look at Matt Biondi. He's about 6'6" and your saying that he's AVERAGE?
>I don't think so. I would say the average is maybe 6' - 6'3". Granted
>there are some pretty big swimmers out there, but there are also some
>who are not exactly giants (Mike Barrowman, Dave Berkoff, ...). This
>turns into only a 1-4" advantage, hardly an imposing difference.

May be all those short swimmers used *** ? :-( Could it be that
the Chinese male swimmer can't win even with the aid of *** : (

This years WC is a mess, the same as last years winter Olympics.
Tonya, Kerrigan and the media hijacked the winter Olympic.
The drug frenzy truly proves that decomercilization of international
sport is absolutely neccesary. Otherwise, those people who fight for
publicity will pop out from nowhere and ruin the day.