debunking another pro-Chinese argument

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Edmund Gendre » Tue, 27 Sep 1994 07:18:10


Recently an argument was made that the Chinese men have made
similar gains in swimming compared with the women.  The substantiating
evidence offered was the performance of the Chinese male swimmers at
the Asian Games, and the number of Asian Games records which have been
captured by the Chinese men in the last few years.  

As with all the arguments I have seen defending the meteoric rise of
Chinese women in swimming as normal and non-drug assisted, this argument
is logically flawed.  So what if the Chinese men are becoming big fish
in the small pond of Asian Games swimming?  This odd-ball comparison
is an attempt to confuse the issue.  I have compiled a list of the
Chinese male performances ranking in the top 25 in the world for the
years 1989, 1990, and 1993.  I don't have the years '91 and '92 handy,
but will attempt to locate them.  However, the point is strikingly clear
even considering these 3 years that the Chinese men have not made much
progress during the past 5 years.  I will also present data for the
Chinese women for the years 1989 to 1993 which clearly shows the
skyrocketing performance of the women during the same period.  Both
men and women are compared to world rankings, the only relevant,
consistent standard.  

Chinese Men's top 25 world rankings:

               1989        1990        1993  

50 free        13th       21st          13th
100 free       16th      
100 back                  22nd          16th
100 ***     15th       13th          6th, 15th
100 fly         3rd       12th          19th, 20th
200 IM                                  20th  

From the January 1994 issue of Swimming World:

          Year                       1989  1990  1991  1992  1993

          Number Chinese Women        5      7     6    10    28
          w top 10 world rank      

The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  

The point has also been raised (several times) that the Chinese women
outperform their men in running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.

Running:  probably also benefitting from steroid abuse.  I do not
    follow running closely, but have heard from several people that
    the rise of Chinese women in running parallels their rise in
    swimming

Soccer:  differences in level of competition world-wide could easily
    explain this.  Soccer is a nearly world wide mania for men, but
    not so for women.

Ping Pong:  first, lets see some data.  Is the difference as extreme as
    in swimming?  did the women come out of nowhere to dominate the
    world?

Chess:  not a relevant comparison, a cognitive activity vs. athletic.
    and again the level of competition among men and among women is much
    different.  It is beyond me why there is even a separate category
    for men and women in chess (seems to me that it insults the
    cognitive ability of women), except that the interest level in
    chess is so much lower in women.

 and WHAT ABOUT DIVING??!!

The Chinese men and women have been a world power for a number of years.  
Some supporting data:  

              Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving

                     1988 Olympics             1992 Olympics

Platform   Men          2nd                        1st, 3rd
         Women          1st                        1st

Springboard  Men        2nd                         2nd
          Women         1st, 2nd                    1st

Hmmmmmm, there's not much of a disparity there!  And, interestingly, the
Chinese and the US are both very strong in diving, and therefore rivals.
But there has been no outcry against the Chinese in diving, in fact there
has been no lack of goodwill between the US and Chinese in diving at all
as far as I know.  And no one has made any allegations of steroid abuse by
the Chinese women divers either.  But then no Chinese woman diver has
ever tested positive for steroids (to my knowledge), and every one I've
seen has a normal feminine figure, and a normal pitch to her voice.  

To those who attack as racially prejudiced those of us who accuse
Chinese female swimmers of abusing steroids, how do you explain our
acceptance of Chinese superiority in diving?  

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Gavi » Tue, 27 Sep 1994 09:39:58

Two weeks ago I posted what I thought why Chinese men can not
compete, but the article disappeared mysteriously. So here it goes again.

Ever wonder why most grown-up Chinese men have bodys of boy scout while
most grown-up Chinese women look like girls in their early ***s? As some
netters pointed out that the average testosterone level in Chinese men is a lot
lower than their western counterparts, there are some evidences showing
that diet may be the major reason why Chinese women outperform their men.

The major protein source for most Chinese is soybean products while most
westerners get it from meat or dairy products. Soybean has been shown to be
a major dietary source of weak-oestrogen. The weaker form of estrogen
blocks the absorption of estrogen in women so it actually acts like
anti-estrogen in women. Since their body estrogen has been weakened,
their musle and bone growth are less affected. Estrogen has been shown
to be the reason why women are shorter than men, as it stops the growth
of leg bones. Estrogen also causes the retention of body fat, which is really
bad for athletes. Eating soya food may have given Chinese women the
real advantage in competition. Soya food just makes women less feminine.

As for Chinese men, they don't have much estrogen to begin with, but the
large quantity of weak-oestrogen do have an weakened estrogen effect on them.
Chinese men are feminized by the weak-oestrogen. Their bone growth is stopped
early and they preserve more curves.

Another factor is animal products, which have been shown to increase
*** testosterone level. Since the average meat consumption in the
 western world is many times that of China, there is no wonder that
westerners have a lot more testosterone in their bodies.

How can we expect Chinese men to be as competitive with the weak-oestrogen
and close-to-none indirect dietary steroids( I mean meat)? Unless they
take steroids to make up the difference.

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by MIke » Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:01:28


Quote:

> Recently an argument was made that the Chinese men have made
> similar gains in swimming compared with the women.  The substantiating
> evidence offered was the performance of the Chinese male swimmers at
> the Asian Games, and the number of Asian Games records which have been
> captured by the Chinese men in the last few years.  

> As with all the arguments I have seen defending the meteoric rise of
> Chinese women in swimming as normal and non-drug assisted, this argument
> is logically flawed.  So what if the Chinese men are becoming big fish
> in the small pond of Asian Games swimming?  This odd-ball comparison
> is an attempt to confuse the issue.  I have compiled a list of the
> Chinese male performances ranking in the top 25 in the world for the
> years 1989, 1990, and 1993.  I don't have the years '91 and '92 handy,
> but will attempt to locate them.  However, the point is strikingly clear
> even considering these 3 years that the Chinese men have not made much
> progress during the past 5 years.  I will also present data for the
> Chinese women for the years 1989 to 1993 which clearly shows the
> skyrocketing performance of the women during the same period.  Both
> men and women are compared to world rankings, the only relevant,
> consistent standard.  

> Chinese Men's top 25 world rankings:

>                1989        1990        1993  

> 50 free        13th       21st          13th
> 100 free       16th      
> 100 back                  22nd          16th
> 100 ***     15th       13th          6th, 15th
> 100 fly         3rd       12th          19th, 20th
> 200 IM                                  20th  

> From the January 1994 issue of Swimming World:

>           Year                       1989  1990  1991  1992  1993

>           Number Chinese Women        5      7     6    10    28
>           w top 10 world rank      

> The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
> Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
> the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
> an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  

I do not know where you got you data. However, no more players in top 25
does not mean you are not makng progress. Most records in Asia could not
even get in world level.  IF you could find some data about how many
Chinese men players are in top 10 in Asia, I think you would find a
diffrent pattern. They would be more similiar to women's at the world
level.  Sure, Asian swimming ponds are much smaller now but they would be
able to show the progress. And I am sure that it won't be long before the
Asian man swimmers make some flash in bigger world pond.

Quote:

> The point has also been raised (several times) that the Chinese women
> outperform their men in running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.

> Running:  probably also benefitting from steroid abuse.  I do not
>     follow running closely, but have heard from several people that
>     the rise of Chinese women in running parallels their rise in
>     swimming

Yes, again when you improve your ability, somebody came out saying you are
using ***. What I could tell you is those Chinese women world class
runners were from the same province team(Liao Ning). Their coach, Coach Ma,
 became a national team coach only after he made those progress. If he
really used *** on his players and the other provinces coaches and
players did not, they would eat him alive since the competetion is so
intense between those province.  Coach Ma got there because he got his own
training methods, even his chinese colleages did not understand.  So, IF
you say all chinese women runners used drug, why only those followed coach
Ma got their success? If Coach Ma used drug on his players, why not
otherplayers and coaches just follow the drug perscription and improve
thier record faster?

Quote:

> Soccer:  differences in level of competition world-wide could easily
>     explain this.  Soccer is a nearly world wide mania for men, but
>     not so for women.

Really? In almost all sports, men are crazier about them than women. More
men go for sports than women. So, your explaination also fits in swimming
and it is one of the reasons why chinese women swimmers are better than
their men counterpart. Talking about women soccer, it is very popular in
Europe, South America (most of them had good men soccer teams) and even in
the United States. The reason why chinese women soccer is better is that:
women soccer became popular in China only ten or fif*** years behind those
soccer countries. But for men, they are fifty or sixty years behind.
However, what could I say? American does not know soccer anyway. Although
they got money, it would take them more time to reach the top of the world
in soccer(if they want to) than American women who is alreay there.

Quote:

> Ping Pong:  first, lets see some data.  Is the difference as extreme as
>     in swimming?  did the women come out of nowhere to dominate the
>     world?

OK. I can give you some.  Since 1989, only one nonChinese woman has won a
world level competetion (a single last year), in which CHinese top players
lost to their old teammates, those old Chinese top players no longer played
for China. Chinese women has the top three (some time top four, even five)
players in the ranking constantly for more than 15 years.  However, for
men, from 1989 to 1993,  they only won a couple of doubles and their best
single ranking is No. 3.  But they were able to hold the second place in
team competetion.
For the 2nd question,  we would have to go back to 29 years ago. Before
1965 world pingpong Champoinship, chinese women only won one gold in 1959
when the game was hold at Beijing.  IN the 28th world Champoinship,1965,
Chinese women used 4 newcomers, who had never appeared in world
competetion. They beat Japan 3-0  in team competeiton final and won first
time. Two of those two comers were in women single's final and were the
champoin and the runner up. After the boycott due to the "culture
revolution" between 1966 to 1971, Chinese women never lost a match in team
competetion since 1972 and only 2 games in team competetion since 1979.

Quote:

> Chess:  not a relevant comparison, a cognitive activity vs. athletic.
>     and again the level of competition among men and among women is much
>     different.  It is beyond me why there is even a separate category
>     for men and women in chess (seems to me that it insults the
>     cognitive ability of women), except that the interest level in
>     chess is so much lower in women.

Yes, it is different. But just about several months ago, that CHinese women
world champoin was in a competetions with several Men top world class
masters. She finished the forth. But, who cares? AS LONG AS THERE WERE
CHINESE woman in the competetion, the"interest level" is lower!!

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>  and WHAT ABOUT DIVING??!!

> The Chinese men and women have been a world power for a number of years.  
> Some supporting data:  

>               Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving

>                      1988 Olympics             1992 Olympics

> Platform   Men          2nd                        1st, 3rd
>          Women          1st                        1st

> Springboard  Men        2nd                         2nd
>           Women         1st, 2nd                    1st

> Hmmmmmm, there's not much of a disparity there!  

There are a lot of differences here. It's like the difference between the
dream team and the American women basketball team. For Chinese women, just
like the dream team, there is no competetion. In 1992 olympic, CHinese
women divers already won the golds while there were two rounds coming.
Chinese women top players are able to garantee a gold no matter what
happens. They are deep and strong.  A 2nd class Chinese woman diver could
also "come out of nowhere" and win a gold. However, for men, they have to
fight, like American women team. They could win and may lose. No garantees.
 But they are strong too. You can not count them out.
 I do not think it is a good idea for you to look up data and talk about
Chinese sports. Americans always just keep theri eyes on themselves. They
did not have enough reports and understanding. The only thing you could do
is to look at medals and records. It could not say everything.  

Quote:
>And, interestingly, the
> Chinese and the US are both very strong in diving, and therefore rivals.
> But there has been no outcry against the Chinese in diving, in fact there
> has been no lack of goodwill between the US and Chinese in diving at all
> as far as I know.  And no one has made any allegations of steroid abuse by
> the Chinese women divers either.  But then no Chinese woman diver has
> ever tested positive for steroids (to my knowledge), and every one I've
> seen has a normal feminine figure, and a normal pitch to her voice.  

There were different kind of stories. I do not think steriod would do some
good for sport like diving anyway.  However, I do remember someone from
American accuses that Chinese women divers are too YOUNG!!!!!  Yes, no
steriods this time, but your players are too young. So guess what? If you
wanna flame someone, you always have your chances.

Quote:

> To those who attack as racially prejudiced those of us who accuse
> Chinese female swimmers of abusing steroids, how do you explain our
> acceptance of Chinese superiority in diving?  

I said everything above.

--

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Edmund Gendre » Thu, 29 Sep 1994 02:25:40

Repost original introduction.....

 Recently an argument was made that the Chinese men have made
 similar gains in swimming compared with the women.  The substantiating
 evidence offered was the performance of the Chinese male swimmers at
 the Asian Games, and the number of Asian Games records which have been
 captured by the Chinese men in the last few years.  

 As with all the arguments I have seen defending the meteoric rise of
 Chinese women in swimming as normal and non-drug assisted, this argument
 is logically flawed.  So what if the Chinese men are becoming big fish
 in the small pond of Asian Games swimming?  This odd-ball comparison
 is an attempt to confuse the issue.  I have compiled a list of the
 Chinese male performances ranking in the top 25 in the world for the
 years 1989, 1990, and 1993.  I don't have the years '91 and '92 handy,
 but will attempt to locate them.  However, the point is strikingly clear
 even considering these 3 years that the Chinese men have not made much
 progress during the past 5 years.  I will also present data for the
 Chinese women for the years 1989 to 1993 which clearly shows the
 skyrocketing performance of the women during the same period.  Both
 men and women are compared to world rankings, the only relevant,
 consistent standard.  

 Chinese Men's top 25 world rankings:

                1989        1990        1993  

 50 free        13th       21st          13th
 100 free       16th      
 100 back                  22nd          16th
 100 ***     15th       13th          6th, 15th
 100 fly         3rd       12th          19th, 20th
 200 IM                                  20th  

 From the January 1994 issue of Swimming World:

           Year                       1989  1990  1991  1992  1993

           Number Chinese Women        5      7     6    10    28
           w top 10 world rank      

 The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
 Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
 the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
 an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  

Quote:
>I do not know where you got you data. However, no more players in top 25
>does not mean you are not makng progress. Most records in Asia could not
>even get in world level.  IF you could find some data about how many
>Chinese men players are in top 10 in Asia, I think you would find a
>diffrent pattern. They would be more similiar to women's at the world
>level.  Sure, Asian swimming ponds are much smaller now but they would be
>able to show the progress. And I am sure that it won't be long before the
>Asian man swimmers make some flash in bigger world pond.

For the record, the data above is taken from issues of Swimming World.  
Every year Swimming World compiles a list of the top 25 performances for
the year.  It is generally published between January to April.  

Regarding the rest, I convincingly rebutted the Asian games nonsense
and you return to it in your own defense. What more can be said?

Quote:
>> The point has also been raised (several times) that the Chinese women
>> outperform their men in running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.

>> Running:  probably also benefitting from steroid abuse.  I do not
>>     follow running closely, but have heard from several people that
>>     the rise of Chinese women in running parallels their rise in
>>     swimming
>Yes, again when you improve your ability, somebody came out saying you are
>using ***. What I could tell you is those Chinese women world class
>runners were from the same province team(Liao Ning). Their coach, Coach Ma,
> became a national team coach only after he made those progress. If he
>really used *** on his players and the other provinces coaches and
>players did not, they would eat him alive since the competetion is so
>intense between those province.  Coach Ma got there because he got his own
>training methods, even his chinese colleages did not understand.  So, IF
>you say all chinese women runners used drug, why only those followed coach
>Ma got their success? If Coach Ma used drug on his players, why not
>otherplayers and coaches just follow the drug perscription and improve
>thier record faster?

The point about varying levels of achievement in different provinces is
interesting.  As I said, I don't have much information about Chinese
running.  It is certainly possible that cheating could occur on a
provincial basis.  However, the point is that there is a huge disparity
between Chinese men and women in several sports where women could
benefit from steroid abuse.  

Quote:
>> Soccer:  differences in level of competition world-wide could easily
>>     explain this.  Soccer is a nearly world wide mania for men, but
>>     not so for women.

>Really? In almost all sports, men are crazier about them than women. More
>men go for sports than women. So, your explaination also fits in swimming
>and it is one of the reasons why chinese women swimmers are better than
>their men counterpart. Talking about women soccer, it is very popular in
>Europe, South America (most of them had good men soccer teams) and even in
>the United States. The reason why chinese women soccer is better is that:
>women soccer became popular in China only ten or fif*** years behind those
>soccer countries. But for men, they are fifty or sixty years behind.
>However, what could I say? American does not know soccer anyway. Although
>they got money, it would take them more time to reach the top of the world
>in soccer(if they want to) than American women who is alreay there.

The point is that there is a nearly world wide mania for men's soccer.  
It is a big money sport of much national pride for many nations.
Therefore, the level of competition in men's soccer is very high.  
Women's soccer is not a big money sport of great national pride.  It is
safe to say that the level of competition in women's soccer is much, much
lower than in men.  So it is much easier for a given nation to rise to
the top of women's soccer than in men's soccer.  

Swimming is not a big money sport, is not a world wide mania.  In the US
men and women train side by side.  They do the same or nearly the same
training.  The numbers of men and women competing is nearly the same.  
Therefore there is very little difference between the level of competition
between men and women in swimming (certainly in the US, and I think it
is safe to say in many other countries as well).  

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>> Ping Pong:  first, lets see some data.  Is the difference as extreme as
>>     in swimming?  did the women come out of nowhere to dominate the
>>     world?
>OK. I can give you some.  Since 1989, only one nonChinese woman has won a
>world level competetion (a single last year), in which CHinese top players
>lost to their old teammates, those old Chinese top players no longer played
>for China. Chinese women has the top three (some time top four, even five)
>players in the ranking constantly for more than 15 years.  However, for
>men, from 1989 to 1993,  they only won a couple of doubles and their best
>single ranking is No. 3.  But they were able to hold the second place in
>team competetion.
>For the 2nd question,  we would have to go back to 29 years ago. Before
>1965 world pingpong Champoinship, chinese women only won one gold in 1959
>when the game was hold at Beijing.  IN the 28th world Champoinship,1965,
>Chinese women used 4 newcomers, who had never appeared in world
>competetion. They beat Japan 3-0  in team competeiton final and won first
>time. Two of those two comers were in women single's final and were the
>champoin and the runner up. After the boycott due to the "culture
>revolution" between 1966 to 1971, Chinese women never lost a match in team
>competetion since 1972 and only 2 games in team competetion since 1979.

Regarding the information you present on level of achievement in ping
pong (such as it is) the disparity does not appear anywhere near as
great as it is in swimming.  No nation will have completely comparable
levels of achievement in all sports.  The point is that the Chinese female
swimmers have made an unprecedented rise to dominate the world in a very
short time.  Meanwhile the Chinese male swimmers have been stagnant at
the world level.  Sorry for the repetition, many of the rebuttals presented
attempt to distract attention from the central point.

CHESS STUFF DELETED    

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>Yes, it is different. But just about several months ago, that CHinese women
>world champoin was in a competetions with several Men top world class
>masters. She finished the forth. But, who cares? AS LONG AS THERE WERE
>CHINESE woman in the competetion, the"interest level" is lower!!

>>  and WHAT ABOUT DIVING??!!

>> The Chinese men and women have been a world power for a number of years.  
>> Some supporting data:  

>>               Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving

>>                      1988 Olympics             1992 Olympics

>> Platform   Men          2nd                        1st, 3rd
>>          Women          1st                        1st

>> Springboard  Men        2nd                         2nd
>>           Women         1st, 2nd                    1st

>> Hmmmmmm, there's not much of a disparity there!  

>There are a lot of differences here. It's like the difference between the
>dream team and the American women basketball team. For Chinese women, just
>like the dream team, there is no competetion. In 1992 olympic, CHinese
>women divers already won the golds while there were two rounds coming.
>Chinese women top players are able to garantee a gold no matter what
>happens. They are

...

read more »

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Z Jia » Fri, 30 Sep 1994 12:45:15

Quote:

> [ painful facts of Western swimming *** diminishing fast, deleted ]
>The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
>Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
>the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
>an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  

Edmund's logic:
---------------

     If one country is good at a particular sport, then both men and
     women sould be equally good in ranking in that sport, otherwise
     *** must be used.

Underlying logic:
-----------------
     If one (person or country or race or anything) is good at one
     thing, one must be good at the others -- or something must be
     wrong.

Derivations:
------------

    1. Chinese women are dominating the swimming pools, but Chinese
       men are not  -- so  the women must be doing something illegal
       such as using ***

    2. Men are born equal. If someone is better than me, he or she must
       be doing something bad such as taking ***

    3. The US army is world elite and invincible. They did well in 2nd
       World War. So they ought to be equally good in VietNam. How come
       they lost -- the Vietmese must be taking lots and lots of ***

    4. The Westerners are superior: that is proven. Any aspect which
       is not superior is because the competitors have taken the ***

    5. The Chinese top women swimmers right now failed to show any sign of
       of using ***, ie tested positive. This has beaten the US
       technology which should be always superior -- so the Chinese
       Coachs must be taking ***.

    6. The better swimming facilities in developed countries should
       produce better results than the Chinese facilities -- so the
       Chinese swimming facilities must be taking ***

Quote:
>The point has also been raised (several times) that the Chinese women
>outperform their men in running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.
>Running:  probably also benefitting from steroid abuse.  I do not
>    follow running closely, but have heard from several people that
>    the rise of Chinese women in running parallels their rise in
>    swimming
>Soccer:  differences in level of competition world-wide could easily
>    explain this.  Soccer is a nearly world wide mania for men, but
>    not so for women.
>Ping Pong:  first, lets see some data.  Is the difference as extreme as
>    in swimming?  did the women come out of nowhere to dominate the
>    world?
>Chess:  not a relevant comparison, a cognitive activity vs. athletic.
>    and again the level of competition among men and among women is much
>    different.  It is beyond me why there is even a separate category
>    for men and women in chess (seems to me that it insults the
>    cognitive ability of women), except that the interest level in
>    chess is so much lower in women.
> and WHAT ABOUT DIVING??!!

You like diving, don't you?  Because diving type of performances
are judged by judges' opinions! So nothing to worry about, as long as
the opinions don't believe the Chinese should be the top.

When it comes to swimming, sadly one can't opinion the clock, so one
has to resort to pointing fingers.

Quote:
>The Chinese men and women have been a world power for a number of years.  
>Some supporting data:  
>              Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving

>                     1988 Olympics             1992 Olympics
>Platform   Men          2nd                        1st, 3rd
>         Women          1st                        1st
>Springboard  Men        2nd                         2nd
>          Women         1st, 2nd                    1st
>Hmmmmmm, there's not much of a disparity there!  And, interestingly, the
>Chinese and the US are both very strong in diving, and therefore rivals.
>But there has been no outcry against the Chinese in diving, in fact there

But you have those helping opinions all the time ...

Quote:
>has been no lack of goodwill between the US and Chinese in diving at all
>as far as I know.  And no one has made any allegations of steroid abuse by
>the Chinese women divers either.  But then no Chinese woman diver has
>ever tested positive for steroids (to my knowledge), and every one I've
>seen has a normal feminine figure, and a normal pitch to her voice.  
>To those who attack as racially prejudiced those of us who accuse
>Chinese female swimmers of abusing steroids, how do you explain our
>acceptance of Chinese superiority in diving?  

   The fundamental difference is that these are different sports. To
   accuse top ranking diving system of systematic use of *** is like
   to accuse someone injecting *** into a brick wall to make it more
   formidable.

   One doesn't always want make fool of oneself.

   Besides, in recent years, the US and the developed countries are losing
   grounds to the Orientals in a speed far exceeds the tolerance of the
   public psyche there, so something has to be done (like accuse others
   of using ***). But in time, the truth will prevail.  Isn't it strange
   that the noices of accusing Chinese middle distance runners have
   subsidized significantly?

   When one first becomes a pauper from a prince, he is likely to be
   very jumpy, aggresive and raving furious accusations. But once he
   has become a pauper for a while, he is likely to become much quieter.

   To end this talk, I would like to cite the following enlightening
   article from Zi Wei.


Quote:
>Why is it that the Chinese are the ones who insist on politicizing this
>issue?  I really do not detect even the slightest hint of bias among
>the lead critics.  They are expressing their deepest concerns and trying
>to get something done that is both effective and expedient.  Am I really
>so naive as to believe that we all want to compete on a level playing
>field?

Why ? Let me give you some examples .

(1) Diving.  They tried to set an age limitation of 16( year old ) in
91's World Championships but failed. At last the age limitation set at
14. That's why Fu Mingxia could not compete in the World Cup which held
in the same year. Before China's ***, there has been never an age
limitation, considering how old is Gao Min when she retired (22) and how
old is Mary Ellen Clark now ( over 30 ), you will know why.
    Another article is about the referees.
Source: Guangming Daily  Sep,10,1994
        Chinese Diving in a Japanese's Eyes

The reporter: It seems to me that the referees are too strict to
        Chinese divers.
Xiao3 Shan1 Jun4 Zhi4 ( I don't know how to pronounce his name in Japanese):
       Yes, it's disappointing. Yesterday some officials from FINA came
       to watch the competition, they asked me why Chinese divers performed
       so good but got such low scores, while some divers dove not so good
       but got high scores. That is because we are asian, the referees from
       Europe and America don't like Chinese win the gold medal. Now China
       leads them quite a lot, they have little to do. If they improve their
       techniques, that will be very dangerous. In 88'Olympics men's
       platform final, in my opinion, Xiong Ni should won by 20 points,
       but at last it was Greg Louganis won the gold. To Chinese divers,
       American audience is most dangerous in Atlanta Olympics.

(2) Short Course Speed Skating. In 94' Olympic Winter Games women's short
course speed skating 500m final, Cathy Turner brushed World Record holder
Zhang Yanmei's leg and knocked her off balance while passing her. When the
Chinese team quickly filed a protect, the Holland chief referee turned it
down and said," Second place is already good for you Chinese." China Sports
Daily had an editorial about this comment and also had a huge photo showing
Cathy's hand on Zhang's leg. Even Cathy Turner herself didn't deny it:
" Maybe I hit her leg or something when I put my hand to the ice ."------
The New York Times   Feb,25,1994.

(3) Women's Basketball.  It was reported in s.c.c that in the final of
this year's World Championships which held in Australia, Team China had 17
fouls in the first five minutes while Brazil only had one.  An Olympic silver
team fouled 17 times in the first five minutes ? I couldn't believe it.

(4) Table Tennis. I cann't remember how many times they changed the rules
when China dominated this sport in the 80's. One example : "You must have
different colour ***s on the two sides of your bat. " It clearly aimed
at Cai Zhenhua who won both silver medals in men's single in 36th and 37th
World Championships. After the change of the rule, Cai's ranking dropped.
The key point here is there was once an European player using the same
kind of bat as Cai's , but at that time they didn't say anything.

Zi-Wei

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Feng Wa » Sun, 02 Oct 1994 05:08:01

Ok, I have compiled four more, now, let's see our Top Ten List of Taking
***:

Quote:


>> [ painful facts of Western swimming *** diminishing fast, deleted ]
>>The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
>>Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
>>the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
>>an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  
>Edmund's logic:
>---------------
>     If one country is good at a particular sport, then both men and
>     women sould be equally good in ranking in that sport, otherwise
>     *** must be used.
>Underlying logic:
>-----------------
>     If one (person or country or race or anything) is good at one
>     thing, one must be good at the others -- or something must be
>     wrong.
>Derivations:
>------------

>    1. Chinese women are dominating the swimming pools, but Chinese
>       men are not  -- so  the women must be doing something illegal
>       such as using ***
>    2. Men are born equal. If someone is better than me, he or she must
>       be doing something bad such as taking ***
>    3. The US army is world elite and invincible. They did well in 2nd
>       World War. So they ought to be equally good in VietNam. How come
>       they lost -- the Vietmese must be taking lots and lots of ***
>    4. The Westerners are superior: that is proven. Any aspect which
>       is not superior is because the competitors have taken the ***
>    5. The Chinese top women swimmers right now failed to show any sign of
>       of using ***, ie tested positive. This has beaten the US
>       technology which should be always superior -- so the Chinese
>       Coachs must be taking ***.
>    6. The better swimming facilities in developed countries should
>       produce better results than the Chinese facilities -- so the
>       Chinese swimming facilities must be taking ***

7.      The Chinese satellite technology was developed in a
        shorter time than other countries -- so the Chinese satellites
        must be taking ***.
        (more reasonable one: Chinese space scientists must be taking ***:-)                          
8.      The Chinese nuclear weapons were developed in a
        shorter time than other countries -- so the Chinese nuclear
        weapons must be taking ***.
        (more reasonable one : Chinese nuclear scientists must be
        taking *** :-)                                

9.      The Chinese economics now is growing much faster than some countries
        -- so the Chinese economics must be taking ***.
        (more reasonable one: 12 billions Chinese are taking *** :-)

And now No.10 :

10.     Some Chinese graduate students are doing much better in American
        graduate schools -- so the Chinese graduate students must be
        taking ***, lots lots of *** :-)))))))))

        (but wait, what kind of *** they are taking? American *** or
        Chinese ***?
        reasonable one: They are taking American *** now in American
        graduate schools and were taking Chinese *** when they were in
        Chinese high schools and Chinese universities as undergrad. :-)

Pure fun, no flame.

Feel free to comment.

--

"What should I put here?"
ok, how about this one "don't insult any decent people"
        and "sometimes insult indecent people"

 
 
 

debunking another pro-Chinese argument

Post by Edmund Gendre » Sat, 08 Oct 1994 23:17:15

Z Jaing,

Your article is full of gross misrepresentations of my points and
ridiculous extrapolations from them.  

This sort of tactic does nothing to advance the discussion and wastes
time.  


 >
 >
 >> [ painful facts of Western swimming *** diminishing fast, deleted ]
 >
 >>The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
 >>Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
 >>the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
 >>an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.  

 >Edmund's logic:
 >---------------
 >
 >     If one country is good at a particular sport, then both men and
 >     women sould be equally good in ranking in that sport, otherwise
 >     *** must be used.
 >
 >Underlying logic:
 >-----------------
 >     If one (person or country or race or anything) is good at one
 >     thing, one must be good at the others -- or something must be
 >     wrong.
 >
 >

 More bologna deleted.