> Recently an argument was made that the Chinese men have made
> similar gains in swimming compared with the women. The substantiating
> evidence offered was the performance of the Chinese male swimmers at
> the Asian Games, and the number of Asian Games records which have been
> captured by the Chinese men in the last few years.
> As with all the arguments I have seen defending the meteoric rise of
> Chinese women in swimming as normal and non-drug assisted, this argument
> is logically flawed. So what if the Chinese men are becoming big fish
> in the small pond of Asian Games swimming? This odd-ball comparison
> is an attempt to confuse the issue. I have compiled a list of the
> Chinese male performances ranking in the top 25 in the world for the
> years 1989, 1990, and 1993. I don't have the years '91 and '92 handy,
> but will attempt to locate them. However, the point is strikingly clear
> even considering these 3 years that the Chinese men have not made much
> progress during the past 5 years. I will also present data for the
> Chinese women for the years 1989 to 1993 which clearly shows the
> skyrocketing performance of the women during the same period. Both
> men and women are compared to world rankings, the only relevant,
> consistent standard.
> Chinese Men's top 25 world rankings:
> 1989 1990 1993
> 50 free 13th 21st 13th
> 100 free 16th
> 100 back 22nd 16th
> 100 *** 15th 13th 6th, 15th
> 100 fly 3rd 12th 19th, 20th
> 200 IM 20th
> From the January 1994 issue of Swimming World:
> Year 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993
> Number Chinese Women 5 7 6 10 28
> w top 10 world rank
> The facts presented above show clearly that the performance of the
> Chinese men has been relatively stagnant over the past five years, while
> the performance of the Chinese women has been overwhelming, an
> an unprecedented rise to world *** in such a short time.
I do not know where you got you data. However, no more players in top 25
does not mean you are not makng progress. Most records in Asia could not
even get in world level. IF you could find some data about how many
Chinese men players are in top 10 in Asia, I think you would find a
diffrent pattern. They would be more similiar to women's at the world
level. Sure, Asian swimming ponds are much smaller now but they would be
able to show the progress. And I am sure that it won't be long before the
Asian man swimmers make some flash in bigger world pond.
> The point has also been raised (several times) that the Chinese women
> outperform their men in running, soccer, ping pong, and even chess.
> Running: probably also benefitting from steroid abuse. I do not
> follow running closely, but have heard from several people that
> the rise of Chinese women in running parallels their rise in
Yes, again when you improve your ability, somebody came out saying you are
using ***. What I could tell you is those Chinese women world class
runners were from the same province team(Liao Ning). Their coach, Coach Ma,
became a national team coach only after he made those progress. If he
really used *** on his players and the other provinces coaches and
players did not, they would eat him alive since the competetion is so
intense between those province. Coach Ma got there because he got his own
training methods, even his chinese colleages did not understand. So, IF
you say all chinese women runners used drug, why only those followed coach
Ma got their success? If Coach Ma used drug on his players, why not
otherplayers and coaches just follow the drug perscription and improve
thier record faster?
> Soccer: differences in level of competition world-wide could easily
> explain this. Soccer is a nearly world wide mania for men, but
> not so for women.
Really? In almost all sports, men are crazier about them than women. More
men go for sports than women. So, your explaination also fits in swimming
and it is one of the reasons why chinese women swimmers are better than
their men counterpart. Talking about women soccer, it is very popular in
Europe, South America (most of them had good men soccer teams) and even in
the United States. The reason why chinese women soccer is better is that:
women soccer became popular in China only ten or fif*** years behind those
soccer countries. But for men, they are fifty or sixty years behind.
However, what could I say? American does not know soccer anyway. Although
they got money, it would take them more time to reach the top of the world
in soccer(if they want to) than American women who is alreay there.
> Ping Pong: first, lets see some data. Is the difference as extreme as
> in swimming? did the women come out of nowhere to dominate the
OK. I can give you some. Since 1989, only one nonChinese woman has won a
world level competetion (a single last year), in which CHinese top players
lost to their old teammates, those old Chinese top players no longer played
for China. Chinese women has the top three (some time top four, even five)
players in the ranking constantly for more than 15 years. However, for
men, from 1989 to 1993, they only won a couple of doubles and their best
single ranking is No. 3. But they were able to hold the second place in
For the 2nd question, we would have to go back to 29 years ago. Before
1965 world pingpong Champoinship, chinese women only won one gold in 1959
when the game was hold at Beijing. IN the 28th world Champoinship,1965,
Chinese women used 4 newcomers, who had never appeared in world
competetion. They beat Japan 3-0 in team competeiton final and won first
time. Two of those two comers were in women single's final and were the
champoin and the runner up. After the boycott due to the "culture
revolution" between 1966 to 1971, Chinese women never lost a match in team
competetion since 1972 and only 2 games in team competetion since 1979.
> Chess: not a relevant comparison, a cognitive activity vs. athletic.
> and again the level of competition among men and among women is much
> different. It is beyond me why there is even a separate category
> for men and women in chess (seems to me that it insults the
> cognitive ability of women), except that the interest level in
> chess is so much lower in women.
Yes, it is different. But just about several months ago, that CHinese women
world champoin was in a competetions with several Men top world class
masters. She finished the forth. But, who cares? AS LONG AS THERE WERE
CHINESE woman in the competetion, the"interest level" is lower!!
> and WHAT ABOUT DIVING??!!
> The Chinese men and women have been a world power for a number of years.
> Some supporting data:
> Places of Chinese Men and Women at Olympics in Diving
> 1988 Olympics 1992 Olympics
> Platform Men 2nd 1st, 3rd
> Women 1st 1st
> Springboard Men 2nd 2nd
> Women 1st, 2nd 1st
> Hmmmmmm, there's not much of a disparity there!
There are a lot of differences here. It's like the difference between the
dream team and the American women basketball team. For Chinese women, just
like the dream team, there is no competetion. In 1992 olympic, CHinese
women divers already won the golds while there were two rounds coming.
Chinese women top players are able to garantee a gold no matter what
happens. They are deep and strong. A 2nd class Chinese woman diver could
also "come out of nowhere" and win a gold. However, for men, they have to
fight, like American women team. They could win and may lose. No garantees.
But they are strong too. You can not count them out.
I do not think it is a good idea for you to look up data and talk about
Chinese sports. Americans always just keep theri eyes on themselves. They
did not have enough reports and understanding. The only thing you could do
is to look at medals and records. It could not say everything.
>And, interestingly, the
> Chinese and the US are both very strong in diving, and therefore rivals.
> But there has been no outcry against the Chinese in diving, in fact there
> has been no lack of goodwill between the US and Chinese in diving at all
> as far as I know. And no one has made any allegations of steroid abuse by
> the Chinese women divers either. But then no Chinese woman diver has
> ever tested positive for steroids (to my knowledge), and every one I've
> seen has a normal feminine figure, and a normal pitch to her voice.
There were different kind of stories. I do not think steriod would do some
good for sport like diving anyway. However, I do remember someone from
American accuses that Chinese women divers are too YOUNG!!!!! Yes, no
steriods this time, but your players are too young. So guess what? If you
wanna flame someone, you always have your chances.
> To those who attack as racially prejudiced those of us who accuse
> Chinese female swimmers of abusing steroids, how do you explain our
> acceptance of Chinese superiority in diving?
I said everything above.