Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Donald Graf » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Greetings, group members. I am back with another in my series of
swimming videos for your enjoyment. It is my strong belief that
the best way to learn is to study the greats. Coaching fads and
theories come and go, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
The current series of MPEG clips were created from a tape
of the Perth 1998 World Championships, very kindly provided by
Dan Perz, a regular of this group. Thank you, Dan!

The next clip is a long clip of Popov next to Klim in the 50m free.
There are some interesting things here. You can see that Popov hits the
water late, and that bad start probably explains his loss to Bill Pilczuk, though
the latter had a tremendous swim. It is really interesting to see what Popov
does when he doesn't have to breathe: his hips are about as flat as they
can be! I'm sure the TI crowd will be horrified. Especially since he is the
world record holder at both 50m and 100m! And look at that wonderful
kayaking arm action! This is the best evidence I have yet found for
my contentions about what works best for swimming fast, which I have repeated
here many times.

The clip is at http://members.xoom.com/swimfaster/klimpopov2.mpg (~7.2MB)
The main website is given below.

One important caveat: Don't try to play these files directly
from the website; they are not streaming video. Right click on the
links and download them to your hard drive. Then play from there.
A great idea is to download all the clips and save them on a
CD, from which they can be played back and studied at will.

A good player for single-stepping and slowing down the speed
is WebFlix Pro. You can also use the freeware VirtualDub for
single-stepping. Be aware, however, that these clips are slowed down
to about half-speed by doubling frames. An option for those people
with slow computers (like mine!) is to get a hardware MPEG decoder
card. I use the RealMagic Hollywood+ and am very happy with it.
It allows full 30 fps playback as well as providing a video out connector.
A last option is to use one of the faster software DVD player programs.
Most can play MPEG1 files from the hard disk.

Coming to your MPEG video screen after Perth 98...Olympics 96!

Donald Graft
Swimming Videos
http://members.xoom.com/swimfaster/

 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Shahin Malekpou » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> Greetings, group members. I am back with another in my series of
> swimming videos for your enjoyment. It is my strong belief that
> the best way to learn is to study the greats. Coaching fads and
> theories come and go, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
> The current series of MPEG clips were created from a tape
> of the Perth 1998 World Championships, very kindly provided by
> Dan Perz, a regular of this group. Thank you, Dan!

> The next clip is a long clip of Popov next to Klim in the 50m free.
> There are some interesting things here. You can see that Popov hits the
> water late, and that bad start probably explains his loss to Bill Pilczuk,
though
> the latter had a tremendous swim. It is really interesting to see what
Popov
> does when he doesn't have to breathe: his hips are about as flat as they
> can be!

An interesting comparison. In contrast to Klim 's elegant, fluid and
symmetrical motion, Popov shows a distinct loping style. Amongst
Popov's competitive advantage appears to be what he does near the
end of his right arm's stroke cycle: A MASSIVE PUSH! He does not
do that with his left arm. It seems a slight asymmetrical lag is part of
his strategy. As a designer (amongst other things), I understand the
importance of asymmetrical proportions in creating dynamic designs.
It is interesting to observe that the principle of asymmetry (known as
one of a class of *Dynamic Proportions* in design, like the "Golden
Proportion") is applicable to a sport like swimming.

I was made aware of the "big push" by a good coach; but he spoke
about maintaining a symmetrical motion in the water.

BTW: I had never bothered about the significance of flat or rotating
hips.  Now that I am more aware of it, I will pay more attention to that.
I presume a flatter hips attitude is supposed to produce more consistent
lift, or smoother glide, if I'm not mistaken?

It has to do with good design, I'm sure! :)

Shahin

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> I'm sure the TI crowd will be horrified. Especially since he is the
> world record holder at both 50m and 100m! And look at that wonderful
> kayaking arm action! This is the best evidence I have yet found for
> my contentions about what works best for swimming fast, which I have
repeated
> here many times.

> The clip is at http://members.xoom.com/swimfaster/klimpopov2.mpg (~7.2MB)
> The main website is given below.

> One important caveat: Don't try to play these files directly
> from the website; they are not streaming video. Right click on the
> links and download them to your hard drive. Then play from there.
> A great idea is to download all the clips and save them on a
> CD, from which they can be played back and studied at will.

> A good player for single-stepping and slowing down the speed
> is WebFlix Pro. You can also use the freeware VirtualDub for
> single-stepping. Be aware, however, that these clips are slowed down
> to about half-speed by doubling frames. An option for those people
> with slow computers (like mine!) is to get a hardware MPEG decoder
> card. I use the RealMagic Hollywood+ and am very happy with it.
> It allows full 30 fps playback as well as providing a video out connector.
> A last option is to use one of the faster software DVD player programs.
> Most can play MPEG1 files from the hard disk.

> Coming to your MPEG video screen after Perth 98...Olympics 96!

> Donald Graft
> Swimming Videos
> http://members.xoom.com/swimfaster/


 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Donald Graf » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Shahin (et al),

Great to see you back posting interesting ideas.
Please see below...

Quote:

> An interesting comparison. In contrast to Klim 's elegant, fluid and
> symmetrical motion, Popov shows a distinct loping style.

Our Larry W has been the great proponent of loping styles. He pointed
out several times that Popov lopes, but perhaps to a lesser extent than some
other famous lopers.

Quote:
> Amongst
> Popov's competitive advantage appears to be what he does near the
> end of his right arm's stroke cycle: A MASSIVE PUSH! He does not
> do that with his left arm. It seems a slight asymmetrical lag is part of
> his strategy.

Yes. Larry has posted cogently on this topic.

Quote:
> As a designer (amongst other things), I understand the
> importance of asymmetrical proportions in creating dynamic designs.
> It is interesting to observe that the principle of asymmetry (known as
> one of a class of *Dynamic Proportions* in design, like the "Golden
> Proportion") is applicable to a sport like swimming.

Well, I am a bit reluctant to accept the principle of the "Big Analogy",
instead preferring specific analysis of the given object of attention.

Quote:
> I was made aware of the "big push" by a good coach; but he spoke
> about maintaining a symmetrical motion in the water.

> BTW: I had never bothered about the significance of flat or rotating
> hips.  Now that I am more aware of it, I will pay more attention to that.
> I presume a flatter hips attitude is supposed to produce more consistent
> lift, or smoother glide, if I'm not mistaken?

We kayakers do not like to talk about glide.  :-)  The flatter hips act as a
stable platform for two important things: 1) a powerful kick, and 2) relative
rotation of the shoulders versus the hips, an action that directly taps the
strong trunk muscles. Also, it is my belief that rotation of the hips causes them
to sink in the water (I base this on observation), so by keeping them flat, one is
better able to maintain the horizontal streamlined position. I believe Dan Perz
has some further ideas about this. But note that, as Larry pointed out, there
are at least three theories about hip action. As always, instead of relying on
facile analogies with other sports, I prefer to see what the elites are actually
doing. They tend to have an almost uncanny feel for the water and know well
what works best for them.

Quote:
> It has to do with good design, I'm sure! :)

For sure.  :-)

Don

 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Shahin Malekpou » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> Shahin (et al),

> Great to see you back posting interesting ideas.
> Please see below...

Thanks for providing the inspiration.
Please see below ...


Quote:
> > An interesting comparison. In contrast to Klim 's elegant, fluid and
> > symmetrical motion, Popov shows a distinct loping style.

> Our Larry W has been the great proponent of loping styles. He pointed
> out several times that Popov lopes, but perhaps to a lesser extent than
some
> other famous lopers.

> > Amongst
> > Popov's competitive advantage appears to be what he does near the
> > end of his right arm's stroke cycle: A MASSIVE PUSH! He does not
> > do that with his left arm. It seems a slight asymmetrical lag is part of
> > his strategy.

> Yes. Larry has posted cogently on this topic.

Yes. Only if one could keep apace with
this prodigiously prolific contributor! :)

Quote:
> > As a designer (amongst other things), I understand the
> > importance of asymmetrical proportions in creating dynamic designs.
> > It is interesting to observe that the principle of asymmetry (known as
> > one of a class of *Dynamic Proportions* in design, like the "Golden
> > Proportion") is applicable to a sport like swimming.
> Well, I am a bit reluctant to accept the principle of the "Big Analogy",
> instead preferring specific analysis of the given object of attention.

Mmm! "Big Analogy"?

I appreciate your hard-nosed approach. But please if I may be
indulged:

Association is somewhat different to "analogy". The act of association
(or bisociation, c. Arthur Koestler) of apparently unrelated ideas and
disciplines, frequently opens surprising views to underlying principles,
and often causes new syntheses.

From a personal view point, in my approach to a design problem,
like most designers, I first adopt a hard-nosed attitude by analysing
it to its constituent parts, and try to understand all the relationships.
Then, adopting a soft-nosed approach, I reconstruct it, adding,
subtracting and rearranging various elements to shape it for its
purpose and environment. As far as hard-nosed approach goes,
I am of the school of Form Follows Function: Concord is designed
and engineered to fly at above the speed of sound. Every design
decision in its construction is functional, including its colour. Yet,
aesthetically, it is virtually a work of art, pleasing to human eyes,
and unique in its character.

I agree that over-enthusiasm in acts of creativity could indeed render
distorted caricatures, where a straight forward engineer's approach
may suffice. Still, in complex human factors problem solving, "analogies",
metaphors, and borrowed principles from unrelated fields often lend
useful thinking tools. They can help in paving the way in pursuing
"specific analysis" in discovering common underlying principles.
I very much believe in a continuos universe, though not necessarily
contiguous; more 3D really! :)

Quote:
> > I was made aware of the "big push" by a good coach; but he spoke
> > about maintaining a symmetrical motion in the water.

> > BTW: I had never bothered about the significance of flat or rotating
> > hips.  Now that I am more aware of it, I will pay more attention to
> > that.
> > I presume a flatter hips attitude is supposed to produce more consistent
> > lift, or smoother glide, if I'm not mistaken?
> We kayakers do not like to talk about glide.  :-)

Aahaah! "kayakers"?! :) ... You seem willing to abandon your
"reluctance for the 'Big Analogy'" when it suits you! :) LOL! :) :)
In fairness, "kayak" is *Small Analogy* compared to Titanic! :) :)

Still, in kayaking, strictly speaking, the haul is not always held
upright in relation to a stream's forces. But of course we are
talking about motion in a straight line in the relative calm of a
swimming pool ... like a barge in a canal. The fact that Popov
sweep his strokes under his trunk, appears to support the
"kayak analogy". He can even be seen as a *Sentient Barge*! :)

Quote:
> The flatter hips act as a stable platform

In theory, it seems plausible. But I am not convinced if in
practice that would bear consistent results for every swimmer,
or individual approach to swimming. I guess it relates more
to the idea of accepting a swimmer as an organic, sentient,
self-regulating systems operating within situational parameters,
as opposed to an inorganic "kayak". But this is not to torpedo
your useful analogy: performance of a kayak is dependent on
organic intelligent beings after all.

Quote:
> for two important things: 1) a powerful kick, and 2) relative
> rotation of the shoulders versus the hips, an action that directly
> taps the strong trunk muscles. Also, it is my belief that rotation
> of the hips causes them to sink in the water (I base this on
> observation),

It could be that you are thinking too vertically! :) What about
lateral compression forces from the surface tension acting
against the moving mass, much as in the angled sides of a
boat that not only helps it float, but lends it potential energy?

Perhaps a strong momentum can use the inevitable swing of
the hips to advantage, bearing in mind tensile forces that are
exerted by the body. We are dealing with a very smart material,
much smarter than the "Fast skin" (!): the human body, not a kayak.

Also, trying to maintain the hips flat may impose energy gobbling
stresses on some swimmers. Hasn't the G force in fluid mechanism
a tendency for lateral dispersion in moving objects? Might there
indeed be benefits in using the natural swing of the hips to
advantage? I am not convinced either about more powerful kicks
in flat hips attitude. It could be that I have not yet consciously
experienced the feel of trying this position.

So, I will give myself the benefit of trying it, and shall measure my
performance over the time that it takes to become adept in the
"flat hips" swimming position, before making my mind up. My
purpose is not to argue with your point of view. It is more a
process of understanding and readjustment, thought out aloud.

Quote:
> so by keeping them flat, one is
> better able to maintain the horizontal streamlined position.
> I believe Dan Perz has some further ideas about this.

I am not familiar with this fellow's ideas, but I shall research.

Quote:
> But note that, as Larry pointed out, there
> are at least three theories about hip action.

Regrettably, I have missed those posts. Sorry if
I have made you revisit already trodden paths.

Quote:
> As always, instead of relying on facile analogies with
> other sports, I prefer to see what the elites are actually
> doing. They tend to have an almost uncanny feel for
> the water and know well what works best for them.

How true is the importance of the "feel for water".
It is a gift like having a talent for an art. In some
people it is naturally expressed; in some it is latent
and discovered through serendipity, in others
developed by hard work. And many just ain't got it ...
pure and simple! :)

Quote:
> > It has to do with good design, I'm sure! :)

> For sure.  :-)

No doubt about it! :)

Quote:

> Don

Shahin
 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Donald Graf » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Please see below...

Don

Quote:

> Mmm! "Big Analogy"?

> I appreciate your hard-nosed approach. But please if I may be
> indulged:

[...]

Interesting comments that I canot disagree with.

Quote:
> I very much believe in a continuos universe, though not necessarily
> contiguous; more 3D really! :)

Wow, you've discovered that the universe is 3D. I'd never have guessed.  :-)

Quote:
> > We kayakers do not like to talk about glide.  :-)

> Aahaah! "kayakers"?! :) ... You seem willing to abandon your
> "reluctance for the 'Big Analogy'" when it suits you! :) LOL! :) :)
> In fairness, "kayak" is *Small Analogy* compared to Titanic! :) :)

No, no! Shahin. By a kayaker, I mean one who swims with a particular
arm timing, referred to as kayaking to distinguish it from FQS. I am in no
way making analogies to a kayak. We do not like glide, because implies
a period when neither arm is propelling. Kayaking attempts to begin one
pull as the other ends; hemce, there is no glide.

Now we have to discount much of your following material.  :-)

Quote:
> Still, in kayaking, strictly speaking, [...]

> > The flatter hips act as a stable platform

> In theory, it seems plausible. But I am not convinced if in
> practice that would bear consistent results for every swimmer,
> or individual approach to swimming. I guess it relates more
> to the idea of accepting a swimmer as an organic, sentient,
> self-regulating systems operating within situational parameters,
> as opposed to an inorganic "kayak". But this is not to torpedo
> your useful analogy: performance of a kayak is dependent on
> organic intelligent beings after all.

See above.

Quote:
> > for two important things: 1) a powerful kick, and 2) relative
> > rotation of the shoulders versus the hips, an action that directly
> > taps the strong trunk muscles. Also, it is my belief that rotation
> > of the hips causes them to sink in the water (I base this on
> > observation),

> It could be that you are thinking too vertically! :) What about
> lateral compression forces from the surface tension acting
> against the moving mass, much as in the angled sides of a
> boat that not only helps it float, but lends it potential energy?

I do not follow your physics.

[...]

Quote:
> Also, trying to maintain the hips flat may impose energy gobbling
> stresses on some swimmers. Hasn't the G force in fluid mechanism
> a tendency for lateral dispersion in moving objects? Might there
> indeed be benefits in using the natural swing of the hips to
> advantage? I am not convinced either about more powerful kicks
> in flat hips attitude. It could be that I have not yet consciously
> experienced the feel of trying this position.

All this is speculation. Ask yourself why the elite swimmers
consistently avoid significant hip rolling.

Quote:
> So, I will give myself the benefit of trying it, and shall measure my
> performance over the time that it takes to become adept in the
> "flat hips" swimming position, before making my mind up. My
> purpose is not to argue with your point of view. It is more a
> process of understanding and readjustment, thought out aloud.

Arguing/discussion is good, as long as it remains civil.

Quote:
> > As always, instead of relying on facile analogies with
> > other sports, I prefer to see what the elites are actually
> > doing. They tend to have an almost uncanny feel for
> > the water and know well what works best for them.

> How true is the importance of the "feel for water".
> It is a gift like having a talent for an art. In some
> people it is naturally expressed; in some it is latent
> and discovered through serendipity, in others
> developed by hard work. And many just ain't got it ...
> pure and simple! :)

Well put, my friend.
 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Shahin Malekpou » Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> Please see below...

> Don




Quote:

> > Mmm! "Big Analogy"?

> > I appreciate your hard-nosed approach. But please if I may be
> > indulged:

> [...]

> Interesting comments that I canot disagree with.

> > I very much believe in a continuos universe, though not necessarily
> > contiguous; more 3D really! :)

> Wow, you've discovered that the universe is 3D.
> I'd never have guessed. :-)

You are gracious in pointing out that in the future, I must
throw something that sticks better than a BOOMERANG! :)

Please see below ...

Quote:
> > > We kayakers do not like to talk about glide.  :-)

> > Aahaah! "kayakers"?! :) ... You seem willing to abandon your
> > "reluctance for the 'Big Analogy'" when it suits you! :) LOL! :) :)
> > In fairness, "kayak" is *Small Analogy* compared to Titanic! :) :)

> No, no! Shahin. By a kayaker, I mean one who swims with a particular
> arm timing, referred to as kayaking to distinguish it from FQS. I am in no
> way making analogies to a kayak.

Actually, I hadn't missed the point. In fact, that's one
of the ideas that I introduced to my sons, which they
_lapped_ with relish ... great results from that model.

My aim was to point out your unconscious use of the
_*"analogy"*_ of "kayaking", since in a statement you
had expressed reluctance at using "big analogies".
Just being mischievous; no need to get stuck in semantics.

Quote:
> We do not like glide, because implies a period when neither
> arm is propelling. Kayaking attempts to begin one
> pull as the other ends; hemce, there is no glide.

Personally, I have a very varied routine. As a playful individual,
I enjoy variety, which is reflected in the way I exercise. I switch
technique with ease, shift cadence, glide, do SR, SL or what
takes my fancy. I sometimes invent something and explore its
possibilities. I am not a stickler for particular techniques. But
as the saying goes: horses for courses. After all, I am hardly
under championship pressures ... I swim for its ecstasy! :)

Frequently, I am approached in the swimming pool by friendly
swimmers asking tips on how to swim with the same (apparently)
effortless ease. To be honest, I usually shy away from such
situations if can help it - apart from a select few. Because  I know
I need to convey the idea of the "feel for water" first; ... that's an
intimate experience.

BTW. I had the opportunity of trying flat hips, and "kayaking".

I was surprised at how easy it is to adopt. I did two 1500 meters;
one in my favourite SL approach, and the other in "kayaking",
maintaining flat hips, applying higher SR than my normal stroke
rate. I enjoyed it greatly, was surprised at how one could keep up
higher cadence over long distance, but noticed little difference
in performance ... Anyway; I will add this to my routine, it's fun.

[zapped]

Quote:
> > It could be that you are thinking too vertically! :) What about
> > lateral compression forces from the surface tension acting
> > against the moving mass, much as in the angled sides of a
> > boat that not only helps it float, but lends it potential energy?

> I do not follow your physics.

Would that be because there's more _intuition_ in
the above statement than Applied Mechenics? :)

Quote:
> [...]
> > Also, trying to maintain the hips flat may impose energy gobbling
> > stresses on some swimmers. Hasn't the G force in fluid mechanism
> > a tendency for lateral dispersion in moving objects? Might there
> > indeed be benefits in using the natural swing of the hips to
> > advantage? I am not convinced either about more powerful kicks
> > in flat hips attitude. It could be that I have not yet consciously
> > experienced the feel of trying this position.

> All this is speculation. Ask yourself why the elite swimmers
> consistently avoid significant hip rolling.

> > So, I will give myself the benefit of trying it, and shall measure my
> > performance over the time that it takes to become adept in the
> > "flat hips" swimming position, before making my mind up. My
> > purpose is not to argue with your point of view. It is more a
> > process of understanding and readjustment, thought out aloud.
> Arguing/discussion is good, as long as it remains civil.

Certainly! That, and a good quality bar s***occasionally! ;) :)

Quote:
> > > As always, instead of relying on facile analogies with
> > > other sports, I prefer to see what the elites are actually
> > > doing. They tend to have an almost uncanny feel for
> > > the water and know well what works best for them.

> > How true is the importance of the "feel for water".
> > It is a gift like having a talent for an art. In some
> > people it is naturally expressed; in some it is latent
> > and discovered through serendipity, in others
> > developed by hard work. And many just ain't got it ...
> > pure and simple! :)

> Well put, my friend.

Thanks for the dialogue,

Shahin

 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Kerry Wilso » Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:00:00

[deep 6'd]

Quote:
>All this is speculation. Ask yourself why the elite swimmers
>consistently avoid significant hip rolling.

OK, I'm going to throw my usual 2 cent's worth in.  BTW, two cents don't buy
you much these days, so bearing that in mind...

Elite swimmers avoid hip rolling because:

1)  I doesn't buy you much in the way of putting the body into an
advantageous position for applying power.

2)  While it MAY buy you a little in terms of streamlining (I'm not sure
about this), ...

3)  Like any other accelerated movement of a massive body in the universe,
it requires the application of force and expenditure of energy to effect the
acceleration, and...

4)  It takes time to accelerate and decelerate the rotational motion of a
massive body -- such as a human being's.  More time than is advantageous
for, let us say, an effective turnover rate during competition.

By limiting the rotation to the top of the body -- where a rotated position
is clearly advantageous for application of force and recovery ov the
opposite arm -- the time, force, and energy used in rotation (a
non-propulsive movement) are minimized.

How come it always takes more than two cents worth of time to throw in my
two-cent opinion?

 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by doug » Tue, 01 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Don

Do you have similar contentions for swimming long distance?

Thanks

 
 
 

Underwater video of Popov -- here's a great one

Post by Donald Graf » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Sorry, Dougal, I've been away.

I'm not sure which contentions you refer to, but the
answer is likely yes. :-) But you can view the
distance clips at my site and judge for yourself.

Don

Quote:

> Don

> Do you have similar contentions for swimming long distance?

> Thanks