how to end DQ's

how to end DQ's

Post by gendr.. » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00


HOW TO PUT AN END TO NUISANCE DQ'S IN SWIMMING

Introduction
------------

Swimming is presently unique in that competitors are disqualified with
some regularity for minor form violations, particularly during turns.  
To maximize the popularity and success of swimming the number of rules
which govern the sport should be kept to the minimum possible to define
the strokes.  The more difficult it is to make a violation resulting in
a DQ, and the less common DQ's are, the more accessible and popular our
sport will be.

Rules Changes to Correct the Problem
------------------------------------

The following rules changes would eliminate the most common reasons for
nuisance DQ's over minor form violations.  These changes would not detract
from the skill and beauty of the swimming strokes.  

1) Allow fly and *** flip turns

2) Eliminate rules references to shoulder orientation in fly and ***

3) Eliminate rules references specifying details about fly kick

4) Change the backstroke turn rule wording in the following way:

During the turn the shoulders may be turned over the vertical to
the *** after which a continuous single arm pull or a continuous
double arm pull may be executed.  At the conclusion of the arm pull(s)
no further kicking or propulsive motion is permitted.  

5) Allow the swimmer to roll onto the *** in the IM during a back to
   *** turn.

Justification and Implications
------------------------------

1) Allow fly and *** flip turns

Allowing fly and *** flip turns would complete the evolution of turn
rule modifications which has occurred in freestyle and backstroke.  Fly
and *** flip turns would be significantly faster, just as free and back
flip turns were when they were introduced. Speed is exciting in swimming.
Fly and *** flip turns would eliminate the possibility for DQ's due
to a one hand touch on the turn.

2) Eliminate rules references to shoulder orientation in fly and ***

Once the head has broken the surface of the water, there is no other way
to swim fly or *** fast except on the *** with the shoulders parallel
to the surface of the water.  Therefore there is no need to specify it in
the rules, the condition exists by default.  

Eliminating references to shoulder orientation in ***stroke would allow
the swimmer to initiate the underwater pull with the shoulders in any
orientation, probably increasing turn speed a small amount.  However, the
swimmer would, by default, be in the process of rotating toward the ***
to swim the stroke on the *** once on the surface of the water.

Similarly in fly, the swimmer would be free to push off the wall and kick
under water in any manner, including on the back or on the side.  However,
the swimmer would by default rotate toward the *** to swim the stroke on
the *** once on the surface of the water.  Again turn speed could be
increased slightly.  

DQ's for shoulder orientation in fly and *** would be eliminated.

(As an aside...  I think specifying that fly and *** be swum on the
*** would be like specifying that runners must run with their
*** facing forward!  There is no need to specify this for runners,
the only fast way to run is with your *** forward.)  

3) Eliminate rules references specifying details about fly kick

The fastest way to swim fly is with a good dolphin kick. Therefore, there
is no need to specify details about the kick in fly.  Competitive swimmers
will use the dolphin kick by default.  Swimmers who use a flutter kick or
*** kick will go slow, but there is no need to DQ them.  Eliminating rules
references to the fly kick will end DQ's for this form violation.

4) Change the backstroke turn rule wording

If the backstroke turn wording were rephrased as above, there would be no
DQ's for gliding into the wall during a backstroke turn.  And there should
be no reason to DQ for this anyway, since gliding into the wall is a speed
disadvantage (an inherent penalty).  The present wording for the backstroke
turn just adds insult to injury by DQ'ing the swimmer for something that
is simply a poorly executed, slow turn.  

5) Allow the swimmer to roll onto the *** in the IM during a back to
   *** turn.

This would eliminate the DQ's for shoulder orientation during the back
to ***stroke turn in the IM.  This would be a relatively significant
speed advantage.  But again, we have seen swimming evolve in this direction
and speed is exciting.  

Conclusion
----------

Taken together the rules changes suggested above would eliminate the
possibility for DQ's over minor form violations and turns.  They would
bring swimming in line with other sports by nearly eliminating the
possibility of DQ for minor form violations.  They would increase the
popularity of swimming by taking away unnecessary detail rules which
presently add little or nothing to the sport.  They would increase the
speed of the sport, and speed is exciting.  

============================

I am interested in people's opinions on what I have written above.  I am
in no position of influence to make any of this happen, but am interested
in a hypothetical discussion.

Ed

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by David Knap » Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> HOW TO PUT AN END TO NUISANCE DQ'S IN SWIMMING

 [snip] Excellent suggestions deleted

   Great ideas, Ed.  They make sense.

   As a result, I predict that you will get seriously flamed for having
the temerity to post them.

  -- Dave
--
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+  
| Dr. David Knapp |  http://www-phys.llnl.gov/N_Div/people/davek.html  |  
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

| (510) 422-1023  |    do it right or don't do it at all.              |
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Martin William Smi » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
Ed writes:
> HOW TO PUT AN END TO NUISANCE DQ'S IN SWIMMING
> [...]

> Rules Changes to Correct the Problem
> ------------------------------------
> [...]

Good idea.  There will probably be a lot of groundless objections.
Competitive swimming seems to have an ***retentive attitude about
it, which probably comes from its members being taught from an early
age not to***in the pool.

martin

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how to end DQ's

Post by SwmCoac » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

An interesting idea you have their, but I'm wondering what background you
and the other two you have supported you have.

Would love to see you perfrom a *** or fly turn with out having to make
modifications to the stroke that wouldn't make it more difficult for young
swimmers to perfrom.

There isn't much of a reference to shoulder orientation in fly and ***
except on the turn and most rule books have even gotten away from that as
well.  So good idea, but it is alreasy in place.

You can not eliminate rules specifying details about any stroke, because
those rules define the stroke.  If you aren't going to define one stroke,
than you can't define any strokes.  Yes, it is slower to kick freestyle
when you swim butterfly, but that is how the stroke is defined.  If you
don't define the butterfly kick, then the ***strokers will want to
undefine their kick and everyone will kick fly instead of *** which is
faster.  

You might consider swimming masters which I think allows you to kick
***stroke when you swim buterfly.  At least they did when I last
officiated a masters meet several years ago.

Rule number 4 is another good one, but it also is in effect.  In USS and
Coll as long as you want into the wall, but you are only allowed one
armstroke.

Rule change number 5 is partially in effect.  Some avenues allow you to do
a roll turn from back to ***, such as high school, but colleges still
require a hand touch.  This one is a matter of getting the different
avenues to get together and not a metter of changing the rule.

I get the sense that you and the others have never been to or coached a
summer club or novice program.  At most C meets, which are for very novice
swimmers, a lot of leeway is given to the swimmers as far as how they
perform the strokes and turns.  There is a lot of educating, but not a lot
of DQ'ing.  It's when you get up to the b and a level meets that DQ'ing
takes precedence to educating, because at that time they should know how
to do the strokes correctly.

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by JAWZ » Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:00:00

CHECK OUT MY HOMEPAGE AT:
www.nucleus.com/~vanstade/simpson.htm

hey do what they did at last summer's Nationals in Winnipeg, don't say it
to the swimmers face, just announce it on the P.A. system, this eliminates
the need of tracking us swimmers down.

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Adam Brid » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

> There isn't much of a reference to shoulder orientation in fly and ***
> except on the turn and most rule books have even gotten away from that as
> well.  So good idea, but it is alreasy in place.

Excuse me?  The USS rule book requires shoulders to be parallel to the
surface during the swim for both these strokes.

Quote:
> You can not eliminate rules specifying details about any stroke, because
> those rules define the stroke.  If you aren't going to define one stroke,
> than you can't define any strokes.  Yes, it is slower to kick freestyle
> when you swim butterfly, but that is how the stroke is defined.  If you
> don't define the butterfly kick, then the ***strokers will want to
> undefine their kick and everyone will kick fly instead of *** which is
> faster.  

> You might consider swimming masters which I think allows you to kick
> ***stroke when you swim buterfly.  At least they did when I last
> officiated a masters meet several years ago.

True, and it's also allowed in the FINA rules.
 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by gendr.. » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>An interesting idea you have their, but I'm wondering what background you
>and the other two you have supported you have.

Speaking for myself....   I have been swimming competitively since I was
13, and am now 34.  Have swum with USS, collegiately, and masters.  I am
presently swimming USS and masters.  If you are interested in my swimming
accomplishemts, I'd be happy to discuss them with you via email.  I think
it is safe to say that although I have never been senior national level, I
am a decent swimmer.  Also, I do have some coaching experience.  I coached
a local town summer league team for one season, assistant coached a USS
team for one season, and assistant coached a college team for half a
season (only because I took a new job and moved).  

Quote:
>Would love to see you perfrom a *** or fly turn with out having to make
>modifications to the stroke that wouldn't make it more difficult for young
>swimmers to perfrom.

I don't find performing a fly or *** flip turn especially difficult.
As for young people, I think learning fly itself is a lot more challenging
than learning to do a fly or *** flip turn.    

Quote:
>There isn't much of a reference to shoulder orientation in fly and ***
>except on the turn and most rule books have even gotten away from that as
>well.  So good idea, but it is alreasy in place.

You are wrong about this.  The following are excerpts from the FINA rules
on fly and ***:

SW 7 - ***stroke

SW 7.1
From the beginning of the first armstroke after the start and
after each turn, the body shall be kept on the *** and both
shoulders shall be in line with the normal water surface.

SW 8 - Butterfly

SW 8.1
The body must be on the *** at all times, except when
executing a turn. The shoulders shall be in line with the water
surface from the beginning of the first armstroke, after the
start and after each turn and shall remain in that position until
the next turn or finish. It is not permitted to roll onto the
back at any time.

Quote:
>You can not eliminate rules specifying details about any stroke, because
>those rules define the stroke.  If you aren't going to define one stroke,
>than you can't define any strokes.  Yes, it is slower to kick freestyle
>when you swim butterfly, but that is how the stroke is defined.  If you
>don't define the butterfly kick, then the ***strokers will want to
>undefine their kick and everyone will kick fly instead of *** which is
>faster.  

What you say here is simply not correct!  The rules references to the
fly kick could be eliminated and there would not be any impact on
***stroke.  The dolphin kick is the fastest possible kick for the fly
stroke.  There is no need to specify that kick in the rules.  The
***stroke kick is not the fastest possible kick, so there is a need
to specify it in the rules.  

Quote:

>You might consider swimming masters which I think allows you to kick
>***stroke when you swim buterfly.  At least they did when I last
>officiated a masters meet several years ago.

You seem to be confusing the intent of my post, which was to make rules
modifications which would virtually eliminate DQ's in swimming, with
some desire on my part to swim fly with a ***stroke kick.  I have no
desire to swim fly with a ***stroke kick.  However, if rules references
to the fly kick are eliminated and some people used a *** kick during
fly, they would be slower than if they swam with a fly kick.  That sacrifice
in speed carries an inherent penalty.  No need to DQ for that.

Quote:
>Rule number 4 is another good one, but it also is in effect.  In USS and
>Coll as long as you want into the wall, but you are only allowed one
>armstroke.

I believe that in USS and FINA you can be DQ'd for gliding into the wall
during the backstroke turn.  The FINA rule is as follows:

SW 6.4
During the turn the shoulders may be turned over the vertical to
the *** after which a continuous single arm pull or a
continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to initiate
the turn. Once the body has left the position on the back, there
will be no kick or arm pull that is independent of the continuous
turning action. The swimmer must have returned to a position on
the back upon leaving wall. When executing the turn there must be
a touch of the wall with some part of the swimmer's body.

Quote:
>Rule change number 5 is partially in effect.  Some avenues allow you to do
>a roll turn from back to ***, such as high school, but colleges still
>require a hand touch.  This one is a matter of getting the different
>avenues to get together and not a metter of changing the rule.

>I get the sense that you and the others have never been to or coached a
>summer club or novice program.  At most C meets, which are for very novice
>swimmers, a lot of leeway is given to the swimmers as far as how they
>perform the strokes and turns.  There is a lot of educating, but not a lot
>of DQ'ing.  It's when you get up to the b and a level meets that DQ'ing
>takes precedence to educating, because at that time they should know how
>to do the strokes correctly.

As I described above, your assumption about my lack of coaching experience
is wrong.  

Ed

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by SwmCoac » Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Well okay, i did make a few mistakes, So let's clarify a few things here.

As far as aflip turn for fly or *** is concerned, it may not be that
hard to get them to do a flip, but I find it hard to believe that you
think this will cause less dq's.  We already have problems with deciding
were the shoulders are with a hand turn and now you are going to have them
flip.

The main problem with the rules though, is that we are not all on the same
page.  Fina, USS, YMCA, High School, and NCAA all have different rules for
different reasons.  Until they all get on the same page you are going to
have the problems that exist.

I apologize for the assumption about your lack of coaching experience, but
I still stand by the statement that their are a lot of opportunities for
kids to learn the strokes in a meet atmosphere without being dq'ed.

Brian

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Paul Burkhard » Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> I still stand by the statement that their are a lot of opportunities
> for kids to learn the strokes in a meet atmosphere without being dq'ed.

> Brian

Brian,

        I applaud your efforts but believe that the "opportunities for
kids to learn the strokes" should come during practice and not at a meet.
Quite simply, the whole point of having rules is to insure that noone
gets an unfair advantage AND to maintain a consistency across meets.
        I've watched the practices of several different teams and find
that the kids develop some pretty bad habits in the water.  For example,
if a kid is doing a set of ***roke or Butterfly, in a lane of 6-7
other swimmers, they can't touch the wall straight on and turn without
running into the swimmer behind them.  Thus, as they approach the
wall and touch (which should be done with the shoulders level to the
water), they drop their shoulders.  Also, when they push off, 90% of the
time, they take their first pull before their shoulders are level fo the
water.  So, coach, what do you think they're going to do when they get
into a meet?
        Also, have you ever asked an official to come to one of your
practices and either explain the rules/infractions or walked the deck
watching your swimmers during their sets?  I've done it before (as an
official) and had success getting through to the kids.
        If a swimmer is DQed for good reasons, and the official is able
to explain the infraction to the kid (or coach), the kid will learn and
that's what it's all about.....

Regards,

Paul

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by gendr.. » Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>As far as aflip turn for fly or *** is concerned, it may not be that
>hard to get them to do a flip, but I find it hard to believe that you
>think this will cause less dq's.  We already have problems with deciding
>were the shoulders are with a hand turn and now you are going to have them
>flip.

If you look back to my original post you will see that I am calling for
*** and fly flip turns, as well as elimination of all reference to
shoulder orientation in fly and ***.  The detailed explanation is in
the original post.

Ed

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by David Knap » Wed, 12 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Thus, as they approach the
> wall and touch (which should be done with the shoulders level to the
> water), they drop their shoulders.

   I've never seen _any_ swimmer touch with their shoulders level to the
water.  Are you claiming you have?

Quote:
>  Also, when they push off, 90% of the
> time, they take their first pull before their shoulders are level fo the
> water.

   I've never seen _any_ swimmer (inclding Olympic swimmers) take the first
pull with the shoulders level to the water.  Have you?

   In fact, I have never seen a legal ***stroke turn.  And neither have
you.

  -- Dave

--
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+
| Dr. David Knapp |  http://SportToday.org/;|  
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

| (510) 422-1023  |    do it right or don't do it at all.              |
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Adam Brid » Thu, 13 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> > Thus, as they approach the
> > wall and touch (which should be done with the shoulders level to the
> > water), they drop their shoulders.

>    I've never seen _any_ swimmer touch with their shoulders level to the
> water.  Are you claiming you have?

> >  Also, when they push off, 90% of the
> > time, they take their first pull before their shoulders are level fo the
> > water.

>    I've never seen _any_ swimmer (inclding Olympic swimmers) take the first
> pull with the shoulders level to the water.  Have you?

>    In fact, I have never seen a legal ***stroke turn.  And neither have
> you.

>   -- Dave

What are you seeing that I'm not?  I watch zillions of ***stroke
turns.  Are the shoulders noticeably dropped before the hands touch the
wall?  I don't see that.  Are the shoulders level with the surface of the
water on that first pull off the wall?  As far as I can tell.

I'd really like to know who you're watching and what you're watching WITH.

Adam Bridge

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by David Knap » Fri, 14 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> >    In fact, I have never seen a legal ***stroke turn.  And neither have
> > you.

> What are you seeing that I'm not?  I watch zillions of ***stroke
> turns.  Are the shoulders noticeably dropped before the hands touch the
> wall?  I don't see that.  Are the shoulders level with the surface of the
> water on that first pull off the wall?  As far as I can tell.

   This is quite simple, really.  Read the rules.  They do not say that you
should touch with both hands _approximately_ simultaneously; we had a long
discussion recently about how rules are rules, and they mean what they say.

   Read the rules.  Then watch a ***stroke turn.  It will not be legal,
because a legal turn is physically impossible.

  -- Dave

--
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+
| Dr. David Knapp |  http://SportToday.org/;|  
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

| (510) 422-1023  |    do it right or don't do it at all.              |
+-----------------+----------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Paul Burkhard » Sat, 15 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>    I've never seen _any_ swimmer touch with their shoulders level to
>    the water.  Are you claiming you have?

>    I've never seen _any_ swimmer (inclding Olympic swimmers) take the first
> pull with the shoulders level to the water.  Have you?

>    In fact, I have never seen a legal ***stroke turn.  And neither
>    have you.

>   -- Dave

Dave,

        Please enlighten me (and the others in this News Group) to the
reasons to your sarcastic remarks.

Thanks,

Paul

 
 
 

how to end DQ's

Post by Adam Brid » Sat, 15 Jun 1996 04:00:00

Quote:



> > >    In fact, I have never seen a legal ***stroke turn.  And neither have
> > > you.

> > What are you seeing that I'm not?  I watch zillions of ***stroke
> > turns.  Are the shoulders noticeably dropped before the hands touch the
> > wall?  I don't see that.  Are the shoulders level with the surface of the
> > water on that first pull off the wall?  As far as I can tell.

>    This is quite simple, really.  Read the rules.  They do not say that you
> should touch with both hands _approximately_ simultaneously; we had a long
> discussion recently about how rules are rules, and they mean what they say.

>    Read the rules.  Then watch a ***stroke turn.  It will not be legal,
> because a legal turn is physically impossible.

>   -- Dave

Dave -- you're living in a fool's paradise.  An official calls what can be
seen.  If there is a noticeable difference between the hands touching then
that's a DQ.  If one can't see the time difference -- well, you can't call
what you can't see.  Yes, we all know that simultaneous means "at the same
instant".  BUT -- demonstrating that a touch is NOT simlutaneous when it's
very close is a difficult matter.  Is there doubt?  An official doesn't
make a call.  Seems pretty conservative to me.

Adam Bridge