Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Dperz » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Distance Per Stroke And Stroke Rate

Distance Per Stroke ( DPS)  And Stroke Rate ( tempo) are swimmings balancing
act. Both are equaly important for faster swimming.

Here are two comparasins of freestylers who have been traineing DPS, for years.
I had just started with some tempo trainging and wanted to see where they were
at. I timed them for 50 yards freestyle on 3 min.sprints.
Swimmer A stats
1st   time  29.71  tempo 1.50,  2.55 yards per stroke
2nd  time  29.05  tempo 1.35,  2.30 YPS
3rd  time   29.15  tempo 1.15,  2.35 YPS
4th  time   29.35  tempo 1.28,  2.35 YPS
Swimmer B stats
1st   time  23.70  tempo .99,  1.94   yards per stroke
2nd  time  24.29  tempo 1.12,  2.34 YPS
3rd  time   24.42  tempo .98,  1.99 YPS
4th  time   24.16  tempo 1.16,  2.23 YPS
Look at the best time for each swimmer.
Is the yards per stroke length the longest?
Is the tempo the Fastest?  
The data was collected using a program called Swim Coach on a Palm.
More

  (Excerpts)  By Wayne Goldsmith From Six Steps to Greatness
 Science Director, Australian Swimming
Looking closely at the Competition Analysis it appears that six factors are
crucial to swimming successfully.  

Step 1: LONG STROKES  At maximum speed, world class male and female freestyle
swimmers are able to cover a distance of approximately 2 meters per stroke
cycle. (two meters per stroke cycle at a speed of 2 meters per second)

Step 2: Long strokes and FAST STROKES   The top freestyle swimmers in the world
are able to complete around 50 stroke cycles per minute at top speed, while
maintaining approximately 2 meters per stroke cycle.    
 (that's 2.3 yards at 1.2 Per Stroke Cycle)

Dan Perz

 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Sherma » Wed, 02 Aug 2000 04:00:00

The answer to both questions is no, but I seem to miss your point here?
Quote:

> Distance Per Stroke And Stroke Rate

> Distance Per Stroke ( DPS)  And Stroke Rate ( tempo) are swimmings balancing
> act. Both are equaly important for faster swimming.

> Here are two comparasins of freestylers who have been traineing DPS, for years.
> I had just started with some tempo trainging and wanted to see where they were
> at. I timed them for 50 yards freestyle on 3 min.sprints.
> Swimmer A stats
> 1st   time  29.71  tempo 1.50,  2.55 yards per stroke
> 2nd  time  29.05  tempo 1.35,  2.30 YPS
> 3rd  time   29.15  tempo 1.15,  2.35 YPS
> 4th  time   29.35  tempo 1.28,  2.35 YPS
> Swimmer B stats
> 1st   time  23.70  tempo .99,  1.94   yards per stroke
> 2nd  time  24.29  tempo 1.12,  2.34 YPS
> 3rd  time   24.42  tempo .98,  1.99 YPS
> 4th  time   24.16  tempo 1.16,  2.23 YPS
> Look at the best time for each swimmer.
> Is the yards per stroke length the longest?
> Is the tempo the Fastest?
> The data was collected using a program called Swim Coach on a Palm.
> More

>   (Excerpts)  By Wayne Goldsmith From Six Steps to Greatness
>  Science Director, Australian Swimming
> Looking closely at the Competition Analysis it appears that six factors are
> crucial to swimming successfully.

> Step 1: LONG STROKES  At maximum speed, world class male and female freestyle
> swimmers are able to cover a distance of approximately 2 meters per stroke
> cycle. (two meters per stroke cycle at a speed of 2 meters per second)

> Step 2: Long strokes and FAST STROKES   The top freestyle swimmers in the world
> are able to complete around 50 stroke cycles per minute at top speed, while
> maintaining approximately 2 meters per stroke cycle.
>  (that's 2.3 yards at 1.2 Per Stroke Cycle)

> Dan Perz


 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Donald Graf » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

The point appears to be that on the spectrum of
high rate-short stroke vs low rate-long stroke (in other words,
Larry's high gear vs. low gear), an intermediate position is
best. Of course, the data is not really sufficient to show that,
but it does cast some doubt on the TI prescription of maximizing
stroke length, and TI's claims that the fastest swimmers always have
the longest stroke lengths.

Don

Quote:

> The answer to both questions is no, but I seem to miss your point here?


> > Distance Per Stroke And Stroke Rate

> > Distance Per Stroke ( DPS)  And Stroke Rate ( tempo) are swimmings a€obalancing
> > acta€ . Both are equaly important for faster swimming.

> > Here are two comparasins of freestylers who have been traineing DPS, for years.
> > I had just started with some tempo trainging and wanted to see where they were
> > at. I timed them for 50 yards freestyle on 3 min.sprints.
> > Swimmer A stats
> > 1st   time  29.71  tempo 1.50,  2.55 yards per stroke
> > 2nd  time  29.05  tempo 1.35,  2.30 YPS
> > 3rd  time   29.15  tempo 1.15,  2.35 YPS
> > 4th  time   29.35  tempo 1.28,  2.35 YPS
> > Swimmer B stats
> > 1st   time  23.70  tempo .99,  1.94   yards per stroke
> > 2nd  time  24.29  tempo 1.12,  2.34 YPS
> > 3rd  time   24.42  tempo .98,  1.99 YPS
> > 4th  time   24.16  tempo 1.16,  2.23 YPS
> > Look at the best time for each swimmer.
> > Is the yards per stroke length the longest?
> > Is the tempo the Fastest?
> > The data was collected using a program called Swim Coach on a Palm.
> > More

> >   (Excerpts)  By Wayne Goldsmith From Six Steps to Greatness
> >  Science Director, Australian Swimming
> > Looking closely at the Competition Analysis it appears that six factors are
> > crucial to swimming successfully.

> > Step 1: LONG STROKES  At maximum speed, world class male and female freestyle
> > swimmers are able to cover a distance of approximately 2 meters per stroke
> > cycle. (two meters per stroke cycle at a speed of 2 meters per second)

> > Step 2: Long strokes and FAST STROKES   The top freestyle swimmers in the world
> > are able to complete around 50 stroke cycles per minute at top speed, while
> > maintaining approximately 2 meters per stroke cycle.
> >  (that's 2.3 yards at 1.2 Per Stroke Cycle)

> > Dan Perz


 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Isiaf » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>The point appears to be that on the spectrum of
>high rate-short stroke vs low rate-long stroke (in other words,
>Larry's high gear vs. low gear), an intermediate position is
>best. Of course, the data is not really sufficient to show that,
>but it does cast some doubt on the TI prescription of maximizing
>stroke length, and TI's claims that the fastest swimmers always have
>the longest stroke lengths.

The book Swimming Even Faster shows research on stroke rate and number per 50
meters as I recall.  There was an average optimum as I recall.  Too much or too
little didn't work as well.

I also recall from reading TI stuff that practice strokes per length will be
less than racing, so there is an expectation of a difference in a race.

I think I recall the Popov video mentioning fewer strokes per length than his
competitors?

Sling Skate

 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Donald Graf » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> I also recall from reading TI stuff that practice strokes per length will be
> less than racing, so there is an expectation of a difference in a race.

Don't get me started.  :-)

Quote:
> I think I recall the Popov video mentioning fewer strokes per length than his
> competitors?

Yes, but now we are not talking about Popov's position on the high-gear/low-gear
spectrum, but rather about comparing him to others. Perhaps due to his height
and powerful kick, as well as a polished technique, he can achieve a longer stroke
length, but this doesn't mean he is operating at the extreme low-gear end of *his*
spectrum. So it is not germane to the original point under discussion.

Don

 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Dperz » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>I think I recall the Popov video mentioning fewer strokes per length than his
>competitors?

From 1998 FINA World Championships

www.parametrix-inc.com/sixsteps.html
SL = stroke length in meters
tempo =  time of one stroke cycle
100 free men averages
Popov SL 2.49 meters tempo 1.22
Klim SL 2.31 tempo1.17
Frolander  SL 2.16  tempo1.10

100 free women averages
Thompson SL 1.96  tempo 1.14
Moravcova  SL 1.73 tempo 1.12
Shan         SL 1.96  tempo 1.13

Dan Perz

 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Ross Bogu » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> The point appears to be that on the spectrum of
> high rate-short stroke vs low rate-long stroke (in other words,
> Larry's high gear vs. low gear), an intermediate position is
> best. Of course, the data is not really sufficient to show that,
> but it does cast some doubt on the TI prescription of maximizing
> stroke length, and TI's claims that the fastest swimmers always have
> the longest stroke lengths.

> Don

Even that is stretching it a bit.  Dan has presented us with data from
two windmill sprinters (one quite strong), and suggested that they go
faster when they spin faster.

That's fine, but it says nothing at all about other styles of swimming.

Quote:

> > > Swimmer A stats
> > > 1st   time  29.71  tempo 1.50,  2.55 yards per stroke
> > > 2nd  time  29.05  tempo 1.35,  2.30 YPS
> > > 3rd  time   29.15  tempo 1.15,  2.35 YPS
> > > 4th  time   29.35  tempo 1.28,  2.35 YPS
> > > Swimmer B stats
> > > 1st   time  23.70  tempo .99,  1.94   yards per stroke
> > > 2nd  time  24.29  tempo 1.12,  2.34 YPS
> > > 3rd  time   24.42  tempo .98,  1.99 YPS
> > > 4th  time   24.16  tempo 1.16,  2.23 YPS

For one thing, this means that you type too fast.  There's some small
errors in your table.  The numbers aren't consistent.

I've taken the liberty of trying to find the stroke count which gives
the best fit to your numbers.  See below

   Time    Strokes    Tempo        Stroke Length
   (sec)             (sec/stroke)  (yds/stroke)

Swimmer A
   29.71    19.6        1.52        2.55
   29.05    21.7        1.34        2.30
   29.15    21.3        1.37        2.35
   29.35    21.3        1.38        2.35

Swimmer B
   23.70    25.8        0.92        1.94
   24.29    21.5        1.13        2.33
   24.42    25.1        0.97        1.99
   24.16    22.4        1.08        2.23

Observations:

1)  Your text refers to stroke cycles, rather than strokes with each
arm.  If the figures above also use complete stroke cycles, then both
of these swimmers have high stroke counts.  Elite males (such as those
in Don's mpg clips) would do 50 yards in 16-18 cycles.  Are these age
group swimmers?

2)  Swimmer A's quickest time was done with a fraction more cycles,
while his slowest time was done with 2 fewer cycles.  So quickening the
tempo a bit helped him.

3)  Swimmer B, although very strong, is also very irregular.  It's hard
to say much about him.  His fastest and slowest times were both done
with 3 extra cycles, so extra cycles don't always help.

4)  Comparing A and B, windmillers (well, these two anyway) go faster
by using a quicker tempo, even if it costs them some stroke length.

Quote:

> > >   (Excerpts)  By Wayne Goldsmith From Six Steps to Greatness
> > >  Science Director, Australian Swimming
> > > Looking closely at the Competition Analysis it appears that six factors
> > > are
> > > crucial to swimming successfully.

> > > Step 1: LONG STROKES  At maximum speed, world class male and female
> > > freestyle
> > > swimmers are able to cover a distance of approximately 2 meters per stroke
> > > cycle. (two meters per stroke cycle at a speed of 2 meters per second)

This is contradicted by Don's clips (for instance).  Some of the women
has short strokes, but the men tend to have much longer strokes.

Quote:

> > > Dan Perz

Ross
 
 
 

Distance Per Stroke & Stroke Rate

Post by Dperz » Sat, 05 Aug 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>Dan has presented us with data from
>two windmill sprinters (one quite strong), and suggested that they go
>faster when they spin faster.

Its not when they spin faster it's when they ballance DPS and Tempo. Both are
equally important.

1.They are NOT wind mill swimmers.

.> The point appears to be that on the spectrum of

Quote:
>> high rate-short stroke vs low rate-long stroke (in other words,
>> Larry's high gear vs. low gear), an intermediate position is
>> best.

Lets look at Womans 800 m freestyle Tempo and Distance Per Stroke
Thanks to USS swimming for putting this usefull data on the web.
tempo = time for one stroke cycle
DPSC= distance per stroke cycle
The tempos are fast, and they keep the tempo fast for the entire race.
Notice that Brooke Bennetts tempo is faster in 1997 and still keeping the
DPS about the same as in 1996. There are alot of conclusions that can be made
with this data. Ill let you come to your own.
Data is from each 100 of 800
1996 Olympic Trials  
800m freestyle Woman Finals
1. BENNETT, BROOKE
Tempo  1.14, 1.15, 1.15, 1.14, 1.13, 1.13, 1.12, 1.11
DPSC  1.74, 1.77, 1.76, 1.74, 1.75, 1.74, 1.71, 1.70

2. EVANS, JANET
Tempo 1.25, 1.25, 1.24, 1.25, 1.24, 1.25, 1.24, 1.25
DPSC  1.91, 1.93, 1.90, 1.93, 1.91, 1.92, 1.89, 1.89

3. JACKSON, TRINA
Tempo 1.20, 1.19, 1.20, 1.21, 1.21, 1.21, 1.21, 1.24
DPSC 1.88, 1.79, 1.86, 1.85, 1.83, 1.79, 1.78, 1.88

1997 SUMMER NATIONALS  
800 METERS WOMEN FREESTYLE Finals
1 Bennett, Brooke  
Tempo 1.07 1.10 1.06 1.11 1.12 1.13 1.14 1.16  
DPSC 1.72 1.76 1.67 1.76 1.76 1.78 1.77 1.76  
2 Munz, Diana  
Tempo  1.18 1.18 1.18 1.19 1.21 1.21 1.23 1.23  
DPSC 1.87 1.85 1.85 1.84 1.86 1.87 1.86 1.85  
3 Cail, Jamie  
Tempo 1.22 1.18 1.11 1.08 1.07 1.04 1.06 1.04  
Dist./Stro(meters/cycl 1.89 1.85 1.71 1.65 1.65 1.57 1.56 1.59  

Dan Perz