Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Sarah Kat » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:11:37


Debbi Wilkes, the Canadian ice skating commentator, had some interesting
comments regarding this on TSN.  She said that immediately after S/P skated
she thought they should have won, since she was emotionally with the
program.  However, given a few minutes to reflect, she understood why a
majority of the panel went with B/S.  She specifically mentioned that B/S
were really using the ice well, pushing out all the way to the boards
throughout the performance, as well as having a more complex program.  When
I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
a number of them.  I do think it was close, since S/P were more technically
on, but I think the basics of B/S's skating kept them close enough to take
advantage of the presentation marks, which is what gave them the edge.

Personally, this is my take on the presentation marks:
a) harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity with
the music chosen;

    - Both were excellent at this.  B/S would get higher points on the
harmonious composition portion, since it's more difficult to present this
well in a more difficult program.  I can understand why some judges would
have S/P ahead on conformity with music chosen, but I can also see why
different cultures would think both teams did equally well on that.

b) variation of speed;

    - Both were good.  Variation of speed is good, but I doubt S/P got extra
points for several stops in their performance.

c) utilization of the ice surface;

    - B/S were clearly better at this.

d) easy movement and sureness in time to the music;

    - S/P looked more comfortable and sure out there.  On the other hand B/S
were no slouches at this either, and were doing it in the context of a more
difficult program.

e) carriage and style;

    - Both are good, but no other team compares to B/S for carriage.  B/S
has the best posture on the ice.

f) originality;

    - B/S get the nod on this, in my opinion, but not by a lot.  I don't
think this had much impact on scoring.

g) expression of the character of the music;

    - S/P were better at this, but B/S were pretty good too.

h) unison (pairs).

    - The MOST IMPORTANT aspect in pairs, and I think it clearly went to
B/S.  They just skate as one better.  Again, they also did it in the context
of a more difficult program, with more difficult footwork and choreography.
This is what I think tips the scales.

Sarah Katz

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Babygi38 » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:02:52

Quote:
>When
>I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
>a number of them.  

I am sorry, I agree with you that B&S skated well they really did, but I think
the gold should have gone to S&P they just skated better.  They need to do
something about those east bloc judges because they are as Sandra Bezic said an
embarassment to the sport.

Shannon

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by GPOsborn » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:49:51

Thank you Sarah,
I too thought S&P won right after the program thought I prefer B&S skating
over all.
On second reflection, I agree with the judges.  The Russians were better
with a few flaws than the mostly flawless performance of the Canadians.  The
flow, edges, difficulty, the general grace of B&S made them the winner even
though the audience was with the Canadians and there much simpler program.
If both had skated perfectly, the Russians would have won because of the
superior skating.  As it was, their superior program and skating won over
the simplistic style and overly sentimental piece of the Canadians.  Also I
felt that they skated this program better a month or so ago.
But then this is only my opinion,
GPOsborne


Quote:
> Debbi Wilkes, the Canadian ice skating commentator, had some interesting
> comments regarding this on TSN.  She said that immediately after S/P
skated
> she thought they should have won, since she was emotionally with the
> program.  However, given a few minutes to reflect, she understood why a
> majority of the panel went with B/S.  She specifically mentioned that B/S
> were really using the ice well, pushing out all the way to the boards
> throughout the performance, as well as having a more complex program.
When
> I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won
on
> a number of them.  I do think it was close, since S/P were more
technically
> on, but I think the basics of B/S's skating kept them close enough to take
> advantage of the presentation marks, which is what gave them the edge.

> Personally, this is my take on the presentation marks:
> a) harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity
with
> the music chosen;

>     - Both were excellent at this.  B/S would get higher points on the
> harmonious composition portion, since it's more difficult to present this
> well in a more difficult program.  I can understand why some judges would
> have S/P ahead on conformity with music chosen, but I can also see why
> different cultures would think both teams did equally well on that.

> b) variation of speed;

>     - Both were good.  Variation of speed is good, but I doubt S/P got
extra
> points for several stops in their performance.

> c) utilization of the ice surface;

>     - B/S were clearly better at this.

> d) easy movement and sureness in time to the music;

>     - S/P looked more comfortable and sure out there.  On the other hand
B/S
> were no slouches at this either, and were doing it in the context of a
more
> difficult program.

> e) carriage and style;

>     - Both are good, but no other team compares to B/S for carriage.  B/S
> has the best posture on the ice.

> f) originality;

>     - B/S get the nod on this, in my opinion, but not by a lot.  I don't
> think this had much impact on scoring.

> g) expression of the character of the music;

>     - S/P were better at this, but B/S were pretty good too.

> h) unison (pairs).

>     - The MOST IMPORTANT aspect in pairs, and I think it clearly went to
> B/S.  They just skate as one better.  Again, they also did it in the
context
> of a more difficult program, with more difficult footwork and
choreography.
> This is what I think tips the scales.

> Sarah Katz


 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Randall Rh » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:17:57

Thanks for the excellent and unbiased comments.  Scott Hamilton and
the other commentators fell all over themselves saying that S/P were
robbed.  The local news people here in Dallas said the same thing,
even though they know nothing about skating.
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Jean » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:55:11

Quote:
>Subject: Re: Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

I think Anton and Elena are wondering the same thing. How did we win?

Jeanne

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Roa » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:11:32

Quote:
>Subject: Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

>Date: 2/12/2002 5:11 AM Central Standard Time

>Debbi Wilkes, the Canadian ice skating commentator, had some interesting
>comments regarding this on TSN.  She said that immediately after S/P skated
>she thought they should have won, since she was emotionally with the
>program.  However, given a few minutes to reflect, she understood why a
>majority of the panel went with B/S.  She specifically mentioned that B/S
>were really using the ice well, pushing out all the way to the boards
>throughout the performance, as well as having a more complex program.  When
>I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
>a number of them.  I do think it was close, since S/P were more technically
>on, but I think the basics of B/S's skating kept them close enough to take
>advantage of the presentation marks, which is what gave them the edge.

<snip interesting comments>

Watching without picking the programs apart, I felt that while Love Story is a
deeply affecting skating program, there seems to be a lot of gliding, not too
many "in betweens".  I thought this the last time they skated this program at
GPF.  

I certainly thought they had the win after they skated through it with no
mistakes, but I can understand how some judges might have given more credit to
B&S due to the greater difficulty of their program.  

I saw only one glaring error from B&S, so this was not the most shocking result
I've ever seen.  Sometimes one or even two little mistakes beats perfect.

Eh well, I thought B&S were better at Worlds last year but S&P won.  ::shrug::

DesertRoaz
Frame of reference is everything.

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Roa » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:12:26

Quote:
>Subject: Re: Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

>Date: 2/12/2002 7:02 AM Central Standard Time

>>When
>>I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
>>a number of them.  

>I am sorry, I agree with you that B&S skated well they really did, but I
>think
>the gold should have gone to S&P they just skated better.  They need to do
>something about those east bloc judges

Would those Eastern block judges include France?  

Quote:
> because they are as Sandra Bezic said
>an
>embarassment to the sport.

Sandra Bezic isn't known for her cool objectivity.  Just because she says
something doesn't mean it's gospel truth.

DesertRoaz
Frame of reference is everything.

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by KatKayl » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:23:27

Quote:
>Would those Eastern block judges include France?  

I will wait until the conclusion of the dance competion before I answer that
question.
Warm Regards,
Kathleen
"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Heathe » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:31:45

Quote:

> Debbi Wilkes, the Canadian ice skating commentator, had some interesting
> comments regarding this on TSN.  She said that immediately after S/P skated
> she thought they should have won, since she was emotionally with the
> program.  However, given a few minutes to reflect, she understood why a
> majority of the panel went with B/S.  She specifically mentioned that B/S
> were really using the ice well, pushing out all the way to the boards
> throughout the performance, as well as having a more complex program.  When
> I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
> a number of them.  I do think it was close, since S/P were more technically
> on, but I think the basics of B/S's skating kept them close enough to take
> advantage of the presentation marks, which is what gave them the edge.

> Personally, this is my take on the presentation marks:
> a) harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity with
> the music chosen;

>     - Both were excellent at this.  B/S would get higher points on the
> harmonious composition portion, since it's more difficult to present this
> well in a more difficult program.  I can understand why some judges would
> have S/P ahead on conformity with music chosen, but I can also see why
> different cultures would think both teams did equally well on that.

> b) variation of speed;

>     - Both were good.  Variation of speed is good, but I doubt S/P got extra
> points for several stops in their performance.

> c) utilization of the ice surface;

>     - B/S were clearly better at this.

> d) easy movement and sureness in time to the music;

>     - S/P looked more comfortable and sure out there.  On the other hand B/S
> were no slouches at this either, and were doing it in the context of a more
> difficult program.

> e) carriage and style;

>     - Both are good, but no other team compares to B/S for carriage.  B/S
> has the best posture on the ice.

> f) originality;

>     - B/S get the nod on this, in my opinion, but not by a lot.  I don't
> think this had much impact on scoring.

> g) expression of the character of the music;

>     - S/P were better at this, but B/S were pretty good too.

> h) unison (pairs).

>     - The MOST IMPORTANT aspect in pairs, and I think it clearly went to
> B/S.  They just skate as one better.  Again, they also did it in the context
> of a more difficult program, with more difficult footwork and choreography.
> This is what I think tips the scales.

> Sarah Katz

While I would have been happy if S/P had won gold, I also could accept that that
Love Story is not as complex as even their last two long programs (Tristan &
Isolde, and Orchid).  They have come a long way since Love Story, in terms of
being capable of skating well and including more in a program.  I wish that they
had continued to work on Orchid - it did highlight their growth as pairs skaters
and would have provided more content upon which to be judged.

OTOH, who really knows???  The judges seemed to be giving marks based on who
knows what.....

Really disappointed with the sport.....  The outcome last night has turned off
many....

Heather

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by M. Brad » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:06:42


Quote:
> >Would those Eastern block judges include France?

> I will wait until the conclusion of the dance competion before I answer
that
> question.

Ditto. :-)
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Babygi38 » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:16:14

Quote:
>Sandra Bezic isn't known for her cool objectivity.  Just because she says
>something doesn't mean it's gospel truth.

I didn't recall saying Sandra Bezic speaks gospel truth.  I simply agreed with
a remark she stated, what's wrong with that?  
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by onthinic » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:12:10

I totally disagree. The B&S program was not smooth. Aside from Anton's
bungled landing, Elena, (as usual) had insecure landings.
Additionally, the program had choppy moments and WAS NOT smooth
throughout. All the excuses can't make rational people close their
eyes. B&S won simply because adequate deductions weren't taken.
Quote:

> Debbi Wilkes, the Canadian ice skating commentator, had some interesting
> comments regarding this on TSN.  She said that immediately after S/P skated
> she thought they should have won, since she was emotionally with the
> program.  However, given a few minutes to reflect, she understood why a
> majority of the panel went with B/S.  She specifically mentioned that B/S
> were really using the ice well, pushing out all the way to the boards
> throughout the performance, as well as having a more complex program.  When
> I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
> a number of them.  I do think it was close, since S/P were more technically
> on, but I think the basics of B/S's skating kept them close enough to take
> advantage of the presentation marks, which is what gave them the edge.

> Personally, this is my take on the presentation marks:
> a) harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity with
> the music chosen;

>     - Both were excellent at this.  B/S would get higher points on the
> harmonious composition portion, since it's more difficult to present this
> well in a more difficult program.  I can understand why some judges would
> have S/P ahead on conformity with music chosen, but I can also see why
> different cultures would think both teams did equally well on that.

> b) variation of speed;

>     - Both were good.  Variation of speed is good, but I doubt S/P got extra
> points for several stops in their performance.

> c) utilization of the ice surface;

>     - B/S were clearly better at this.

> d) easy movement and sureness in time to the music;

>     - S/P looked more comfortable and sure out there.  On the other hand B/S
> were no slouches at this either, and were doing it in the context of a more
> difficult program.

> e) carriage and style;

>     - Both are good, but no other team compares to B/S for carriage.  B/S
> has the best posture on the ice.

> f) originality;

>     - B/S get the nod on this, in my opinion, but not by a lot.  I don't
> think this had much impact on scoring.

> g) expression of the character of the music;

>     - S/P were better at this, but B/S were pretty good too.

> h) unison (pairs).

>     - The MOST IMPORTANT aspect in pairs, and I think it clearly went to
> B/S.  They just skate as one better.  Again, they also did it in the context
> of a more difficult program, with more difficult footwork and choreography.
> This is what I think tips the scales.

> Sarah Katz

 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Sammi » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:25:41

Quote:
> They need to do
> something about those east bloc judges because they are as Sandra Bezic
said an
> embarassment to the sport.

Great idea! Of course it could happen sometimes that Japan does not put a
North American pair in 1st place. Well no problem: the Japanese judge is
then removed because that judge is an embarassment to the sport! But... oh
oh... some Western European skating pair may pick up gold. Hey I have an
idea: let's kick those French and German judges, who do they think they are
anyway, besides an embarassment to the sport?
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by Grif » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:53:48

Quote:

> >Subject: Re: Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

> >Date: 2/12/2002 7:02 AM Central Standard Time

> >>When
> >>I look at the elements of presentation, I just think that B/S clearly won on
> >>a number of them.  

> >I am sorry, I agree with you that B&S skated well they really did, but I
> >think
> >the gold should have gone to S&P they just skated better.  They need to do
> >something about those east bloc judges

> Would those Eastern block judges include France?  

It's being suggested that the french judge may have been attempting to
curry favor with the Russian judge prior to the ice dance judging.
 
 
 

Why Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze won

Post by manh » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:11:33


Quote:
> Personally, this is my take on the presentation marks:
> a) harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity
with
> the music chosen;

>     - Both were excellent at this.  B/S would get higher points on the
> harmonious composition portion, since it's more difficult to present this
> well in a more difficult program.  I can understand why some judges would
> have S/P ahead on conformity with music chosen, but I can also see why
> different cultures would think both teams did equally well on that.

Doesn't placement of elements come into play here too? B&S clearly
frontloaded the difficult elements in the beginning of the program.

Quote:
> b) variation of speed;

>     - Both were good.  Variation of speed is good, but I doubt S/P got
extra
> points for several stops in their performance.

Those stops were artistically consistent with the music and they gained back
their speed with minimal effort. Doesn't that demonstrate variation of
speed?

Quote:
> c) utilization of the ice surface;

>     - B/S were clearly better at this.

S&P are suddenly seen as turtles or something. They're not that bad and B&S
aren't that good.

Quote:
> f) originality;

>     - B/S get the nod on this, in my opinion, but not by a lot.  I don't
> think this had much impact on scoring.

Because LS is old? I don't see the originality of B&S' program. For one,
every other couple was doing a classical piece, and two, Meditation is
exactly like their short program.

Quote:
> h) unison (pairs).

>     - The MOST IMPORTANT aspect in pairs, and I think it clearly went to
> B/S.  They just skate as one better.  Again, they also did it in the
context
> of a more difficult program, with more difficult footwork and
choreography.
> This is what I think tips the scales.

Disagree. S&P have superb unison and do so in subtly difficult ways.

Lewis.