"figure" vs "recreational"

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by HILL JANET SWA » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00


Cross-posted to ice.figure and ice.recreational.

I was around in the bad old days when all sorts of skating, whether on
wheels or blades was lumped into a single group, and was around during
the process of trying to find suitable divisions of the traffic, and
suitable names.

It was pretty well supported that blades and wheels should be separated,
and that within blades, hockey and figure skating should be separated,
AND that within figure, doers and watchers should be separated.  But the
names of the "doers" and the "watchers" groups were tough to come up
with.  Specifically, the use of "figure" for the fan group was considered
to be potentially confusing.

It turned out to BE confusing.  People who DO figure skating think of what
they do as *figure skating*, not "recreational ice skating", so they find
"ice.figure" and assume that they have found the right place to talk about
DOING figure skating.  They may think it's a bit odd that there is so
little discussion about "doing" skating, but they don't think to look
beyond ice.figure for some other place.  Why WOULD it occur to them?

From time to time the FAQs are posted, one of which contains the charter
for the various skating groups, but I'll bet lots of people don't read them.
From time to time, someone like me will answer a "doing" question, and
include a suggestion to try the question over on ice.recreational, but
more often than not, questions that are more suitable to the other group
(such as the recent spate of "where can I skate when I visit/move to X?"
questions) are just answered here.

Now that's nice.  Answering questions is kind and good, but it
perpetuates the impression that this is the right group.  This does several
things:  It reduces the traffic on ice.recreational, making THAT group
less useful, and It increases the traffic on ice.figure, making THAT
group more unweildy.  To the extent that any "doers" hang out only
on ice.recreational (either always, or just when they are really busy),
it reduces the chance of getting a "doing" question answered well or of
participating in relevant discussions.

There are a few possibilities for addressing the situation that I can see:

-- maintain the status quo, leaving it up to individual initiative to
answer questions with a "steer" toward the other group (and relying on
the patience of other group denizens not to mind the occasional
reminders, so long as they are phrased politely)

-- put up a BRIEF reminder message at the same time as the FAQ postings
(but formatted and TITLED unlike the FAQs so it won't be skipped over)
on the figure and recreational groups only that says something to the
effect that:  There are two main groups for the discussion of figure
skating. rec.sport.skating.ice.figure is geared to fan discussions, and
rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational is geared toward how, why, and where
discussions among those who skate. ... and then referring people to the
FAQs for more information.      

-- Rename the groups taking into account what went wrong with the current
names.  I'd suggest rec.sport.skating.ice.figure.fans and
rec.sport.skating.ice.figure.skaters  (or figure.howto).  I suspect,
however, based on seeing the process that came up with the current
configuration, that renaming the groups might be fairly labor-intensive.

I've been watching the traffic on the two lists since the split, and at
first there was LOTS of appropriate traffic on ice.recreational, and
almost no inappropriate traffic on ice.figure, presumably because at
first most people reading the newsgroups had been around before and during
the split.  As time passed, though, more and more "doers" questions/messages
showed up on "figure" (and lots of them went unanswered or unresponded
to) and fewer showed up on "recreational").  

At the same time that this was happening, the internet list SKATERS-L
also got going and its membership has increased a lot, so it's possible
that many of the "doers" have found a place for their discussions, but I
don't think that can be the whole explanation.

Comments?

        janet swan hill

who, as a librarian and a cataloger just naturally thinks classificatory
thoughts.

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Louis Epste » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00


:
: Cross-posted to ice.figure and ice.recreational.

Only .figure appeared on the newsgroups line,so it was not strictly
"cross-posted".(I'm cross-posting this to alt.skate,just for the heck of it)

: I was around in the bad old days when all sorts of skating, whether on
: wheels or blades was lumped into a single group, and was around during
: the process of trying to find suitable divisions of the traffic, and
: suitable names.
:
: It was pretty well supported that blades and wheels should be separated,
: and that within blades, hockey and figure skating should be separated,
: AND that within figure, doers and watchers should be separated.  But the
: names of the "doers" and the "watchers" groups were tough to come up
: with.  Specifically, the use of "figure" for the fan group was considered
: to be potentially confusing.
:
: Comments?

Well,the question is,is the split doer/watcher or competition/for fun?
I remember when I was lambasted on .recreational when I cross-posted
Alexa's stuff there,since she's an active competitor of high test
caliber...

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Wendi Dunl » Tue, 14 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Well,the question is,is the split doer/watcher or competition/for fun?

What's the difference? You have people competing at the lowest
levels,.mostly for fun.

Quote:
> I remember when I was lambasted on .recreational when I cross-posted
> Alexa's stuff there,since she's an active competitor of high test
> caliber...

When was this? I don't remember this. I can't imaginw why anyone in
r.s.s.i.r. would object to posts from a high level skater. Come on, we
need their advice! :)

Perhaps there was another reason why people objected -- you crossposted
without Alexa's permission or something. I don't recall what happened at
all.

(this is cross-posted to both r.s.s.i. groups, alt.skate removed since
this really has nothing to do with alt.skate in the first place)

+-- Wendi Dunlap -------------------------------------------+
| Seattle, WA, USA * "Merito" * http://www.slumberland.com/ |

+-----------------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Sandra Loosemo » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00


   ...within figure, doers and watchers should be separated.  But the
   names of the "doers" and the "watchers" groups were tough to come up
   with.

As I pointed out in another message, the split between the two newsgroups
is NOT between "doers" and "watchers".

The ".figure" group is for the discussion of the sport of figure
skating.  While the emphasis is on elite-level figure skating (both
eligible and professional), discussion from participant figure skaters
is definitely included in the charter for this group.

The ".recreational" group was intended to cover ice skating that is
not specifically figure skating, particularly including discussion of
learn-to-skate issues, outdoor pond skating, and the like, for people
who have no interest in fan chat or the world of elite-level skating.

   At the same time that this was happening, the internet list SKATERS-L
   also got going and its membership has increased a lot, so it's possible
   that many of the "doers" have found a place for their discussions, but I
   don't think that can be the whole explanation.

I have argued repeatedly that these mailing lists ought to be
gatewayed or merged with the newsgroups so that the discussion is more
readily available to a larger audience, but the mailing list people
all seem to hate the idea because they don't want to rub shoulders
with the unwashed masses of Usenet, or something like that.

-Sandra

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Louis Epste » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00


:
: > I remember when I was lambasted on .recreational when I cross-posted
: > Alexa's stuff there,since she's an active competitor of high test
: > caliber...
:
: When was this? I don't remember this. I can't imaginw why anyone in
: r.s.s.i.r. would object to posts from a high level skater. Come on, we
: need their advice! :)
:
: Perhaps there was another reason why people objected -- you crossposted
: without Alexa's permission or something. I don't recall what happened at
: all.

Ana Gonzalez complained of .f trying to take over .r when I crossposted
some of Alexa's stuff(which she was at that point posting to rec.skate
despite the creation of the split groups...I wanted to bring her more of
an audience)...she *is*,as I pointed out,a "doer",albeit then a Novice
who I think is now a Junior.

: (this is cross-posted to both r.s.s.i. groups, alt.skate removed since
: this really has nothing to do with alt.skate in the first place)

Cross-posted to rec.skate.

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by George Robbi » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Ana Gonzalez complained of .f trying to take over .r when I crossposted
> some of Alexa's stuff(which she was at that point posting to rec.skate
> despite the creation of the split groups...I wanted to bring her more of
> an audience)...she *is*,as I pointed out,a "doer",albeit then a Novice
> who I think is now a Junior.

> : (this is cross-posted to both r.s.s.i. groups, alt.skate removed since
> : this really has nothing to do with alt.skate in the first place)

> Cross-posted to rec.skate.

Yes Louis, if you persist in cross posting stuff to rec.skate, alt.skate
or cross-posting material according to your own personal perspectives
instead of the charters, you'll get some objections from time to time.
You'd be doing more of a service by sending the confused party e-mail
pointing them at the correct place and letting them repost to the right
place if they choose too.  The only thing posted to rec.skate at this
time should be the FAQ posting pointing at other places.

Un-cross-posted to rec.skate

--
George Robbins - not working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but still emotionally attached to:    uucp:   ...!uunet!tharsis.com!grr

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Louis Epste » Wed, 15 May 1996 04:00:00


: >
: > : (this is cross-posted to both r.s.s.i. groups, alt.skate removed since
: > : this really has nothing to do with alt.skate in the first place)
: >
: > Cross-posted to rec.skate.
:
: Yes Louis, if you persist in cross posting stuff to rec.skate, alt.skate
: or cross-posting material according to your own personal perspectives
: instead of the charters, you'll get some objections from time to time.
: You'd be doing more of a service by sending the confused party e-mail
: pointing them at the correct place and letting them repost to the right
: place if they choose too.  The only thing posted to rec.skate at this
: time should be the FAQ posting pointing at other places.

People in the other groups might be led here through cross-posted threads...

right now the inline skating FAQ is posted monthly to rec.skate,but none of
the others.

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Mark Overt » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Well,the question is,is the split doer/watcher or competition/for fun?

What about folks who compete for fun?  :-)/2

I think the following already-suggested names are far clearer:
    figure       -> fans
    recreational -> howto  (dorky, but clear)

- Mark

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

its/it's we're/were their/there/they're principle/principal shall/will and/an

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Jeff Goldsmit » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> > Well,the question is,is the split doer/watcher or competition/for fun?

> What about folks who compete for fun?  :-)/2

> I think the following already-suggested names are far clearer:
>     figure       -> fans
>     recreational -> howto  (dorky, but clear)

How about "fans" and "skaters"?
                        --Jeff
--
# Cthulhu in '96!  Why vote for the lesser evil?
# ---
# http://muggy.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff
 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by George Robbi » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:



> > > Well,the question is,is the split doer/watcher or competition/for fun?

> > What about folks who compete for fun?  :-)/2

> > I think the following already-suggested names are far clearer:
> >     figure       -> fans
> >     recreational -> howto  (dorky, but clear)

> How about "fans" and "skaters"?

The problem is the ambiguity - "skaters" is where some peolple would post
about Nancy and Oksna or whatever the latest <person> tizzy is about.

Really, the current names suck, that was the cost of a compromise to get a
separate group that could be used for talking about participatory skating
without offending the sensibilities of the fnas and figure skaters who were
also fans who had to approve the whole thing.  I don't think changing the
name is magically going to draw additional traffic, that requires either
making a broader range of people aware of the group, working at putting
content in the group and replying to messages and gently redirecting folks
who post in the "wrong" group to where they might find a more appropriate
and comfortable forum.

--
George Robbins - not working for,     work:   to be avoided at all costs...
but still emotionally attached to:    uucp:   ...!uunet!tharsis.com!grr

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Wendi Dunl » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Ana Gonzalez complained of .f trying to take over .r when I crossposted
> some of Alexa's stuff(which she was at that point posting to rec.skate
> despite the creation of the split groups...I wanted to bring her more of
> an audience)...she *is*,as I pointed out,a "doer",albeit then a Novice
> who I think is now a Junior.

Were the posts about participatory skating or fan stuff? That would make a
difference, also. If she was posting about meeting Oksana at her rink
during practice, that would be apprpropriate to rssif. If she was posting
about trouble with her triple loop, that would be appropriate to rssir, I
guess -- though, admittedly, the charter doesn't say that. (A point which
I always disagreed with, anyway. :) I never understood why high-level
technique needed to be discussed in the same group as "Irina's Costume
Follies" or something, instead of in the group where lower-level technique
was discussed.)

Quote:
> Cross-posted to rec.skate.

*UN*cross-posted to rec.skate, which is supposed to be a deleted
newsgroup. It was superseded by the new groups, and the *only* content
that should be posted there is a message that will refer people to the new
groups.

+-- Wendi Dunlap -------------------------------------------+
| Seattle, WA, USA * "Merito" * http://www.slumberland.com/ |

+-----------------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

"figure" vs "recreational"

Post by Wendi Dunl » Thu, 16 May 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> People in the other groups might be led here through cross-posted threads...

No, people in rec.skate will stay in rec.skate if they keep getting
content in that obsolete group.

Quote:
> right now the inline skating FAQ is posted monthly to rec.skate,but none of
> the others.

There should perhaps be a weekly post that tells people where they need to
go instead of rec.skate. And maybe someone could e-mail the people who
post in rec.skate and ask them to move to the regular groups. Louis? You
seem to have enough free time to crosspost; maybe you could do these other
things instead, which would be way more helpful in the long run!

But perhaps this has gotten off-topic...

+-- Wendi Dunlap -------------------------------------------+
| Seattle, WA, USA * "Merito" * http://www.slumberland.com/ |

+-----------------------------------------------------------+