Really Skinny Skaters

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Fiona McQuarri » Tue, 21 Nov 2000 04:00:00


A question for the judges/evaluators among us.

If you have to judge a skater that is so horrendously thin that you can't
focus on the program and instead wonder if she will have the strength to
finish.....does that factor into the marking at all?

Or do you mark the elements of the program and have a private word with
the parent or coach afterwards?

(Please note: I am not talking about someone who is naturally thin, so
spare me the lectures about picking on skinny people. I am talking about
someone who is cadaverous and has the skin and hair tone associated with
an eating disorder.)

Cheers, Fiona

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by janet swan hi » Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:14:38

Quote:
>From: Fiona McQuarrie
>A question for the judges/evaluators among us.

>If you have to judge a skater that is so horrendously thin that you can't
>focus on the program and instead wonder if she will have the strength to
>finish.....does that factor into the marking at all?

>Or do you mark the elements of the program and have a private word with
>the parent or coach afterwards?

>(Please note: I am not talking about someone who is naturally thin, so
>spare me the lectures about picking on skinny people. I am talking about
>someone who is cadaverous and has the skin and hair tone associated with
>an eating disorder.)

You focus on the program (you'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore things
like weight, height, hideous costumes, etc.).

You judge the skating.   It is *none of your business* and *not your job* to
comment on a skater's personal life.   You do NOT approach anybody afterward to
make any kind of comment about the skater's physical condition.

Even if you entertained thoughts that the skater might have an eating disorder,
for all you know, that skater knows she has a problem and is already working on
it .... and maybe skating is part of the therapy.  Or maybe she has some other
disease or condition, or is undergoing chemotherapy .... or some other thing.

If the skater or the coach or the parent approaches with a question  about the
skating or the scoring, you might indeed observe that the skater seemed to have
stamina problems, or was underpowered, or seemed not to have the strength to
check out of jumps, or hold strong positions, etc.  (if any such observation
might be true), but that's it -- those are comments about the SKATING, not the
skatER.

janet

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by PosterBo » Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> >From: Fiona McQuarrie

> >A question for the judges/evaluators among us.

> >If you have to judge a skater that is so horrendously thin that you can't
> >focus on the program and instead wonder if she will have the strength to
> >finish.....does that factor into the marking at all?

> >Or do you mark the elements of the program and have a private word with
> >the parent or coach afterwards?

> >(Please note: I am not talking about someone who is naturally thin, so
> >spare me the lectures about picking on skinny people. I am talking about
> >someone who is cadaverous and has the skin and hair tone associated with
> >an eating disorder.)

> You focus on the program (you'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore
things
> like weight, height, hideous costumes, etc.).

> You judge the skating.   It is *none of your business* and *not your job*
to
> comment on a skater's personal life.   You do NOT approach anybody
afterward to
> make any kind of comment about the skater's physical condition.

> Even if you entertained thoughts that the skater might have an eating
disorder,
> for all you know, that skater knows she has a problem and is already
working on
> it .... and maybe skating is part of the therapy.  Or maybe she has some
other
> disease or condition, or is undergoing chemotherapy .... or some other
thing.

> If the skater or the coach or the parent approaches with a question  about
the
> skating or the scoring, you might indeed observe that the skater seemed to
have
> stamina problems, or was underpowered, or seemed not to have the strength
to
> check out of jumps, or hold strong positions, etc.  (if any such
observation
> might be true), but that's it -- those are comments about the SKATING, not
the
> skatER.

    Sure.  Sure.  Sure.
    Let someone ELSE worry about this serious issue.
    And don't tell anyone about that youngster coming to school with bruises
all over his/her body.  It isn't YOUR problem.
    And next time you see a kid sniffing glue, ignore it.  After all, it is
someone ELSE's problem.
    And avoid telling anyone about that youngster getting pounded by those
bullies.  I mean, if he actually dies, well then it is for the police and
justice system to worry about.
    And...since the judge is in an official capacity of a skating governing
body, well just follow the example of the USFSA: it's not our responsibility
to protect children from predators...even when they are under our control!!!
    This issue really frosts me...and I get EXTREMELY upset at anyone who
counsels others to ignore obvious and observable serious problems with ALL
our youth.  Including...and especially...skaters who might be saved.
    It is an abomination for ***s to so abandon kids this way.
    IMO.

Cheers.

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by icedance.. » Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:00:00


I personally think it must be some prerequisite to be super skinny in
the elite ice dance competitions.  It is very noticable when watching
these couples on TV. Even the men are skeletal.  It reminds me of
gymnastics a couple olympics ago.  We all realize that the judges are
there to judge skating. That is not the issue.  What I am wondering
about is why are these couples getting scrawnier every year. Who
started this trend anyway??

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Dave Amord » Wed, 22 Nov 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> From: Fiona McQuarrie
<snip>
> If you have to judge a skater that is so horrendously thin that you can't
> focus on the program and instead wonder if she will have the strength to
> finish.....does that factor into the marking at all?

> From: Janet Swan Hill

> You focus on the program (you'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore
> things like weight, height, hideous costumes, etc.).

> You judge the skating.   It is *none of your business* and *not your job*
> to comment on a skater's personal life.   You do NOT approach anybody
> afterward to make any kind of comment about the skater's physical
condition.

<snip>

> From The PB:

>     Sure.  Sure.  Sure.
>     Let someone ELSE worry about this serious issue.
>     And don't tell anyone about that youngster coming to school with
bruises
> all over his/her body.  It isn't YOUR problem.
>     And next time you see a kid sniffing glue, ignore it.  After all, it
is
> someone ELSE's problem.
>     And avoid telling anyone about that youngster getting pounded by those
> bullies.  I mean, if he actually dies, well then it is for the police and
> justice system to worry about.
>     And...since the judge is in an official capacity of a skating
governing
> body, well just follow the example of the USFSA: it's not our
responsibility
> to protect children from predators...even when they are under our
control!!!
>     This issue really frosts me...and I get EXTREMELY upset at anyone who
> counsels others to ignore obvious and observable serious problems with ALL
> our youth.  Including...and especially...skaters who might be saved.
>     It is an abomination for ***s to so abandon kids this way.
>     IMO.

  While, on the surface, I can understand and agree with PB's position on
this issue, other points come to mind. While I addressed the issue of
"assume responsibility, assume blame" in another post about Pairs, the other
simple issue is this: Judges see individual skaters so rarely compared to
parents, coaches, teachers, doctors, etc. I would sincerely hope that, long
before any eating disorder or other abuse could possibly come to the
attention of a skating judge, that one of the other parties would have
reported it.
  On a personal note, I have offended my fair share of people by bringing to
their attention what I considered to be symptoms of abuse. In some cases, my
fears were clearly misguided. But in other cases, I believe I've done the
right thing, even when others did not see things my way. Judges and other
skating volunteers have enough burdens as it is without mandating the role
of child advocate as well. But, I would like to think that any person who
dedicates so much of their lives to the education and training of children,
as skating officials do, would "do the right thing" if found in such a
circumstance.
  To say that a child's well being "is none of your business" is flat out
wrong and a cop out; but placing official responsibility upon skating
officials is an unreasonable burden.  IMO, of course. Sometimes, we need
only act as responsible ***s, and rest should take care of itself.

-Dave-

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Trudi Marrapo » Thu, 23 Nov 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:11:24 -0800, "Dave Amorde"

> >  To say that a child's well being "is none of your business" is flat out
> >wrong and a cop out; but placing official responsibility upon skating
> >officials is an unreasonable burden.  IMO, of course. Sometimes, we need
> >only act as responsible ***s, and rest should take care of itself.

> Yes,,, BUT.. I have heard/read more than one story about parents or
> others going to rink managers, club presidents, etc with concerns that
> they have had about skaters they have observed at the rink(abusive
> situations, etc) and those people are told not to say anything because
> of whatever reason. I remember one person telling a story about how
> they were concerned about a coach and when the person talked to
> whoever was in charge was told not to say anything because that coach
> brought a good rep to the rink. When someone who has tried to do the
> right thing is met with a response like the above, you can imagine why
> there is concern from folks like us who read these stories.

Good Lord. I am amazed at the priorities some people have. "Don't say
anything about how abusive this coach is--he brings a good rep to our
rink." And meanwhile, small human beings are being warped for life,
because they are not as important as a rink's reputation.
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World

"I don't see myself as Ricky Martin." --Brian Orser
"Life is too damned short for me to read the dubious opinions of idiots" --Peg Lewis

To mail me, replace the double vowel at the end of the name with the correct single letter. Sorry to make it so hard, but I'm being spammed to death lately and I'm sick of it.

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Isiaf » Thu, 23 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>  To say that a child's well being "is none of your business" is flat out
>wrong and a cop out; but placing official responsibility upon skating
>officials is an unreasonable burden.

1. This of course is very different that merely commenting on a persons
physical condition, such as, "Gee, Susie I think your could get higher scores
if you would just get that bulima under control.

2. Everyone has a set of morals and acts upon them accordingly; however, I
cannot conceive of a situation where a person would be in dangerous physical
condition and no one would notice other than one judge at a skating
competition.

Sling Skate

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by janet swan hi » Thu, 23 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>From: "PosterBoy"
>    Let someone ELSE worry about this serious issue.
>    And don't tell anyone about that youngster coming to school with bruises
>all over his/her body.  It isn't YOUR problem.
>    And next time you see a kid sniffing glue, ignore it.  After all, it is
>someone ELSE's problem.
>    And avoid telling anyone about that youngster getting pounded by those
>bullies.  I mean, if he actually dies, well then it is for the police and
>justice system to worry about.
>    And...since the judge is in an official capacity of a skating governing
>body, well just follow the example of the USFSA: it's not our responsibility
>to protect children from predators...even when they are under our control!!!
>    This issue really frosts me...and I get EXTREMELY upset at anyone who
>counsels others to ignore obvious and observable serious problems with ALL
>our youth.  Including...and especially...skaters who might be saved.
>    It is an abomination for ***s to so abandon kids this way.
>    IMO.

Well, it frosts and enrages me me that you should equate these things.   Judges
see skaters ON THE ICE, DOING THEIR PROGRAMS.    Judges are instructed/required
to be impartial observers of the SKATING.     During a competition, judges DO
NOT CONSORT with skaters.   They remain separate in order to try to maintain
impartiality and not to e*** ideas on anyone's part that they might have more
interest in Orestes than in Pompey.      Direct your anger at the people who
are actually in significant contact with the skaters as people.  

NOW ....... as a person, I may come in contact with a skater with whom I share
the ice, or who also takes from my coach, etc.      I may come actually to KNOW
some skaters from my own club, I may have an opportunity to observe these
people doing something other than skating their program in a competition.   AS
A PERSON, I am free to express concern, to report suspected abuse, and I may
feel honor bound to do so  AS A PERSON.    The fact that I am also a judge is
in this instance a coincidence, because I am making my judgements from actual
concrete encounters.    

If my only contact with a skater is that I am sitting at a judges' table and
watching them do a program, I do not have the knowledge to make judgements
about ANYTHING BUT THE SKATING.    

Saying that "the judges should do this" is just as much a copout as you are
accusing others of.   Why pick on a group of people whose only "contact" is for
3 minutes, across an ice rink, doing a program?   Is it just easier to assume
that judges are responsible for everything?   Do the judges, once again, make
an easier scapegoat?  

janet

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by janet swan hi » Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>Well, it frosts and enrages me me that you should equate these things.
>Judges
>see skaters ON THE ICE, DOING THEIR PROGRAMS.    Judges are
>instructed/required
>to be impartial observers of the SKATING.

It occurs to me that my earlier response to Posterboy was perhaps ambiguous.

I replied that it was not the judge's business to talk to coaches, etc. about a
really skinny skater.     Posterboy obviously interpreted this to be an
expression of "hey, don't bother me, it's not my responsibility."

What I meant was that it is INAPPROPRIATE for a judge to approach someone in
this way for such a reason in such circumstances.

Just as actors preserve "the fourth wall" ..... that is, operate as if there
were a wall between them and the audience, a part of maintaining credibility
and impartiality in the judging is for the judges -- when they are "on duty" --
(in this example, during a competition to which they are assigned) to remain
aloof from the skaters'  *personal* condition/circumstances.

There are other groups of people .... coaches, parents, other organizational
officials, club members, friends, etc., who are not obligated to remain aloof.
  Moreover, such people may actually have the kind of contact that judges DON'T
.... the kind of contact that would enable them to form an informed opinion.  

As I said in my other reply ..... when a judge is "off duty" -- that is, when a
judge is just being an ordinary person, back home at the rink or wherever, the
judge may act AS AN ORDINARY INDIVIDUAL who may be acquainted with a situation
that is worrisome, and the judge may act just as any other person would.

janet

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by barb » Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:11:24 -0800, "Dave Amorde"

> >  To say that a child's well being "is none of your business" is flat out
> >wrong and a cop out; but placing official responsibility upon skating
> >officials is an unreasonable burden.  IMO, of course. Sometimes, we need
> >only act as responsible ***s, and rest should take care of itself.

> Yes,,, BUT.. I have heard/read more than one story about parents or
> others going to rink managers, club presidents, etc with concerns that
> they have had about skaters they have observed at the rink(abusive
> situations, etc) and those people are told not to say anything because
> of whatever reason.

These parents or others who observe abusive situations should do the ***
thing and call Social Services directly rather than trying to evade
responsibility and get somebody else to make the call.  This telling somebody
else and hoping that they will "do something" about it is a cop out and shows
a remarkable lack of maturity on the part of the *** who originally noted
the problem.  What exactly do you think Social Services can do with a
second-hand report rather than an an eyewitness account?

This situation reminds me a lot of the many parents who get unhappy about
something that is or isn't happening the way they like in their child's
classroom.  They'll talk to all and sundry about what they don't like and
suggest that "somebody" ought to do something about it but will not ever bring
it up directly with the teacher involved.  Yes, there is a *slight* risk of
reprisal, but there is also a slight risk that when you cross the street that
you'll be hit by a bus.  Most of the time it is just cowardice hiding under
the facade of "fear of reprisal."

Cheers,
Barb K.

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Jocel » Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>Yes, there is a *slight* risk of
>reprisal, but there is also a slight risk that when you cross the street that
>you'll be hit by a bus.  Most of the time it is just cowardice hiding under
>the facade of "fear of reprisal."

There's also the "doubt" factor - what if you're wrong?  What if you're just
jumping to conclusions?  If you play the good samaritan and report abuse, and
it's not true, you don't exactly curry favor with those who you suspect of
abuse.  And especially if those you reported were doing the abusing are in
positions of power.  If people have potential to have a lot to lose, they will
usually keep quiet.  If you're an unbiased third party, people will think,
"what do they know?" or "what business is it of theirs?".

Jocelyn
--
http://members.xoom.com/vesperholly/
ad astra per aspera

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Isiaf » Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:00:00

The fact is that some people, such as teachers, are required by law to report
suspected abuse.  

Sling Skate

 
 
 

Really Skinny Skaters

Post by Virginia Blaloc » Fri, 24 Nov 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
>There's also the "doubt" factor - what if you're wrong?  What if you're just
>jumping to conclusions?  If you play the good samaritan and report abuse, and
>it's not true, you don't exactly curry favor with those who you suspect of
>abuse.  

I believe calling the authorities keeps the names of the people
reporting private. Isn't that the case?

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