Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Revjoel » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00


Okay I am going to make a definitive statement about Art.

Alexei Yagadin's World's Exhibition was NOT Art.

Joelle
"I feel 100% confident that I can overcome this disease and be
back on the ice within a few months" - Scott Hamilton

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Fab4Fan » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00

Me:

Quote:
>>...I just get
>>the feeling that I could take Nicole Bobek, put her out on the ice
>>in sweats, pop in a tape of one of my songs that she's never heard
>>before, and she'd create magic to it.

NotDeby:

Quote:
>So...you think she choreographs her own work? That she is an Isadora
>Duncan type? She may well have choreographic talent, but I'm not aware
>that she creates her own work...do you know that for sure?

A few years back, Nicole was known--actually she was notorious--for
spontaneously rechoreographing her programs. She has also made
comments about her favorite thing to do on ice skates is "just putting
on music and skating around to it". She doesn't choreograph her
competitive routines, as far as I know--at least not in "name". I
wouldn't be surprised if she put her two cents in, however :-).

Quote:
>> Like I said, I'm reading Nicole's
>>mind, but I always got the impression that she thinks like a
>>composer/musician. When I hear a piece of music, I almost
>>instinctively start rearranging it in my mind. I think Nicole, and
>>this is a very vague statement, but I get the impression that she
>>creates musical arrangements with ice skates.
>Aha, Frank! I think what you appreciate in Nicole is her ability in
>"phrasing." Perhaps what you are experiencing in her is an ability to
>phrase the choreography in a way you respond to as a musician.

Yes, exactly. Somebody understood what I was talking about!
Excuse me while I gape in disbelief :-).

Quote:
>>... When Paul
>>Wylie did "Schindler's List" there was obviously a storyline,
>>but I do not think he could have done that piece flawlessly
>>without music.
>Define flawlessly. 'Naturally' the piece could be 'skated' flawlessly
>without music. Would it carry the same impact and convey the same message
>and emotion. Probably not, but...

I don't think the choreography would be any more than a pale shadow
of itself. Paul's another skater with great "phrasing", especially in that
piece.

Quote:
>>it's readily apparent. And it is apparent, to me at least, that
>>some skaters are slaves to the music, too.
>Frank, apparently you have this dominatrix thing about music and the
>movement set and performed to it  ")  ")  ").

Beat me, whip me, tie me up with guitar strings :-)

Frank

Beautiful Downtown Beverly, MA      KA1WZH
"I live in New York, New York, city that never shuts up"--Ani DeFranco
"All alone beneath the starless summer sky"--Marshall Crenshaw
"Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream"--Lennon/McCartney

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Revjoel » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00

Frank:

Quote:
>A few years back, Nicole was known--actually she was notorious--for
>spontaneously rechoreographing her programs. She has also made
>comments about her favorite thing to do on ice skates is "just putting
>on music and skating around to it". She doesn't choreograph her
>competitive routines, as far as I know--at least not in "name". I
>wouldn't be surprised if she put her two cents in, however :-).

I wish Nicole *would* try choreographing a program for herself...maybe
start with an exhibition.  Much as I like her skating it, I am not
impressed with the choreography of Evita...and I think she should start
working on that skill of hers.and perhaps if it were her program she'd put
more of herself into it...I'd wish she would do that.

Joelle
"I feel 100% confident that I can overcome this disease and be
back on the ice within a few months" - Scott Hamilton

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Cycys » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>Okay I am going to make a definitive statement about Art.

>Alexei Yagadin's World's Exhibition was NOT Art.

 Good example. An example of art??? Look at any performance
by Michelle Kwan, Kazakova & Dmitriev, or Krylova & Ovsiannikov.

 Jam

*************************************
"There are only three cities in America, San Francisco, New Orleans and New
York."- Tennessee Williams  

Of course, I disagree with San Francisco. It's just a bad imitation of New Orleans.

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Trudi Marrapo » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

> Me:
> >>...I just get
> >>the feeling that I could take Nicole Bobek, put her out on the ice
> >>in sweats, pop in a tape of one of my songs that she's never heard
> >>before, and she'd create magic to it.

> NotDeby:
> >So...you think she choreographs her own work? That she is an Isadora
> >Duncan type? She may well have choreographic talent, but I'm not aware
> >that she creates her own work...do you know that for sure?

> A few years back, Nicole was known--actually she was notorious--for
> spontaneously rechoreographing her programs. She has also made
> comments about her favorite thing to do on ice skates is "just putting
> on music and skating around to it". She doesn't choreograph her
> competitive routines, as far as I know--at least not in "name". I
> wouldn't be surprised if she put her two cents in, however :-).

I am sure this is true of a lot of skaters--not just Nicole. While they
may not be their own choreographers "of record," and they may feel they
"need" someone else to help them or be the objective outside eye and tell
them what looks good, a lot of them come up with their own moves and ideas
when being choreographed by someone else.

Let me describe something that impressed me early with Nicole. It's a
piece of videotape from a practice session at Sun Valley in, what? 1990?
'91? Anyway, Nicole is on the ice with a bunch of other skaters, and the
sound system begins to play the quite lengthy "dance mix" of Madonna's
"Vogue." Nicole begins to move to this; it's obvious she's not just
skating around doing jumps or practicing some other routine without the
music. She begins skating to *this* music. I don't know whether she'd ever
tried doing it before, but one thing's for sure, *nobody* does a routine
this long! So obviously this was not a piece that was choreographed, at
least not all of it. And all the way through, she's doing this great,
spontaneous choreography, even taking time out to vamp with Shepherd Clark
(who also happened to be on the ice) as if he were a foil put there for
her to flirt with. Right through to the end. I thought "I sensed this
skater was amazing, but she is really AMAZING."

I think it's the skaters who appear to be to utterly feel and express
their music, throughout every cell of their bodies, that I find to be
artists. That's all I really have to say about it. Not very complex.

Trudi

Previous spamproofing unsuccessful--take two! To mail me, get rid 'o "getridodispart."...

"Some men think strong opinions are a sign of PMS..."--TV commercial

"...and if you don't believe it, you can ring my doorbell and smell my toilet." --another TV commercial

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Mark » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00

Figure skating:

Art?                    YES
Entertainment?  YES
A Business?             YES
Athletics?      YES
A SPORT?                NO!*

It is not a sport because the winner is determined by judges and a
subjective scoring scale, not by value or points/goals/time/whatever
scored.  This takes nothing away from Figure skating or any of the other
non-sports, but it is a fact.  

Other examples of athletic non-sports:
Gymnastics, Diving, Freestyle skiing, ski jumping, Boxing (except when
there is a non-technical knockout)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My life is an endless purgatory, interrupted by profound moments of
misery."
                                  -- Richard Karinsky, Caroline in the City
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Trudi Marrapo » Sat, 31 May 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Figure skating:

> Art?                    YES
> Entertainment?  YES
> A Business?             YES
> Athletics?      YES
> A SPORT?                NO!*

I'm going to do you the favor of assuming you are not a troll, although
you have waded hip-deep into what is considered "troll territory" on this
newsgroup.

Quote:
> It is not a sport because the winner is determined by judges and a
> subjective scoring scale, not by value or points/goals/time/whatever
> scored.  This takes nothing away from Figure skating or any of the other
> non-sports, but it is a fact.  

No, it is not. The scoring scale of figure skating, as any of the judges
here will tell you, is not strictly subjective. There are many objective
aspects to figure skating judging, many "did he or didn't he accomplish or
achieve this" aspects. The moves accomplished in skating have a value
relative to those accomplished by all the competitors, which is given
weight in the marks. And, of course, there are time limits on skating,
even if the goal is not to be "the fastest."

Quote:
> Other examples of athletic non-sports:
> Gymnastics, Diving, Freestyle skiing, ski jumping, Boxing (except when
> there is a non-technical knockout)

I don't understand how you can deem something "athletic" but "not a
sport." Ballet or modern dance, debatable--because ordinarily they are not
"competed" in the same sense ballroom dance is--but gymnastics? Diving?
Ski jumping? Boxing? There are plenty of objective aspects to these as
well.

Examples:

Gymnastics - Was this or that move executed or not? (not just HOW it was
executed)

Diving - Ditto.

Ski jumping - Distance of jumps is measured concretely. It is not all
"style points."

Boxing - Did the guy land a blow or not? (Blows can be eletronically
registered, not just determined to have been landed by judges.)

You might have more of a point with freestyle skiing, or synchronized
swimming--not that the athletes don't execute moves, but there seems to be
a higher emphasis in these competitions on "style" than on anything else.
Then again, maybe that's just my ignorant view from the outside.

I do know that there is a whole lot more to skating than just the
subjective opinions and tastes of a panel of judges.

Trudi

Previous spamproofing unsuccessful--take two! To mail me, get rid 'o "getridodispart."...

"Some men think strong opinions are a sign of PMS..."--TV commercial

"...and if you don't believe it, you can ring my doorbell and smell my toilet." --another TV commercial

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by PegLew » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

First: Yes, I, too, made it to the end, although my vision was blurring by
the time I got to the "Y" model part, so I'll have to go back to that when
I can see only one of everything. ;-)

To Dirk: *This* is a beautiful example of how to draw out a ton of
responses without making people want your head on a spit. Even if NotDeby
makes some points I don't agree with, she does it with impeccable - ahem,
pardon the word - *style.*

Second: A lot of NotDeby's thoughts made sense to me, but perhaps not to
the original authors. I can, of course, only speak for myself, so to that
end...


Quote:



>>I wonder, were the chosen pieces abstract without story in an of
>>themselves, or were they taken from works that did tell stories?

>As yamstep indicated, again. There are abstract works created 'as'
>abstract. Funny thing, though. After seeing Lar Lubovitch's "Othello," I
>was thinking about what makes a successful "story" ballet, about the
>inclusion of abstract work within the story ballet, as Petipa,
>particularly, worked. Not all full-length ballets are designed that
>way...but I wonder if it tends to make a full-length ballet more
>successful...anyway...there's another story...

>>... I
>>mean, if the music is a Nocturne, and some in the audience know it is a
>>Nocturne *and* what a "Nocturne" is, wouldn't they read a little of the
>>traditional night-love-song concept into the dance, whether the
>>choreographer intended those movements to depict that or not?

>No. Not if it's not intended by the choreographer. Successful
choreography
>will convey what the choreographer wants to express, whether it has
>anything to do with the original intention of the music or not

I've got news for you. *I* read original musical intent into it. Imagine
this scenario: I go to a college dance recital, and one of the pieces is
done to the Barber piano Nocturne. I know what it is; I've played it. The
setting is modern dance, so I can't compare the choreography to the
limited reference points I have, since those are mainly "traditional"
ballet (although I saw a Martha Graham bio once - not the best way to be
exposed to *any* artist's work) stagings of warhorses like Nutcracker &
Les Selphides (don't know if that's spelled correctly at all - it is a
collection of Chopin pieces... which are largely program music, too, I
might note).

So, I'm in the audience, watching "modern" dance movements done while
Barber's Nocturne plays. I'm out of my element trying to understand the
dancers, because I don't have any schooling in this genre and darned near
little exposure to it. I can't go up to the choreographer in
mid-performance and ask if he intended to evoke his concept of a nocturne
or not. I have to go with what I know about the music (lots) and what I,
an unlearned casual observer of dance, can glean from the performers (not
so much, due to my inexperience as a dance audience member, and the
limitations of the dancers I get to see, who are college students being
exposed to new things - and sometimes the choreographer is a student
feeling his way, as well).

So I can flatly not read any of the musical meaning to the "nocturne" that
I am seeing on the stage? Not hardly. That's the *one* thing my mind will
latch upon, and feel secure about, amidst a sea of unfamiliar motion. That
may not be the intent of the work from the choreographer's (or dancers'
even) POV, but it is the way I, a musician trying to broaden my horizons
by attending performances of other performing Arts, perceive it.

Basically, I just don't agree that you can flatly dismiss the perception
of the audience. IMO, a performing art needs creators, performers *and* an
audience, and its success can never be measured without that last piece of
the puzzle.

For whatever that's worth. As NotDeby said, "your mileage may vary." I
respect her POV, but I think my POV deserves a little respect, too.

Peg


===========
"Losing to Tara isn't a nuclear blast; it's life, it's sport. Michelle's
not always going to be perfect, she's not the queen of May, she's not
wearing a crown like some Venus de Milo. We're talking about Michelle Kwan
skating the best she can for herself, not for mommy or daddy or Frankie."
- Frank Carroll at Champions Series Finals pre-event press conference,
February 28, 1997
===========
"Treading on your own dreams is truly insane." - Kenneth Atchity, "A
Writer's Time" (p.23)
===========
Its a wonderful feeling to fly again. - Michelle Kwan, '97 Worlds,
March 1997

 (I just had

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>a thought...does this sort of thing drive musicians and composers nuts
>")?  ). Maybe think of it the way you would hear a piece of music,
>unidentified and undescribed to you beforehand, and create images in your
>head to it. There are myriad images and motivations you might create from
>a single piece of music. There's a Jerome Robbins ballet, "The Concert."
>It's a comic piece, and the pianist is on stage, playing Chopin (I think)
>and the audience (dancers) get up, one by one, and dance out the images
>the music is creating in their heads (according to Robbins, that is).
Kind
>of like a musical Rorschach test.

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Notde » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>Me:
>>>...I just get
>>>the feeling that I could take Nicole Bobek, put her out on the ice
>>>in sweats, pop in a tape of one of my songs that she's never heard
>>>before, and she'd create magic to it.

>NotDeby:
>>So...you think she choreographs her own work? That she is an Isadora
>>Duncan type? She may well have choreographic talent, but I'm not aware
>>that she creates her own work...do you know that for sure?

>A few years back, Nicole was known--actually she was notorious--for
>spontaneously rechoreographing her programs.

Actually...she was known for spontaneously re-ordering the elements in her
program. Correct? Saying she was choreographing or re-choreographing is
really a misstatement. Choreography is much more than where you put the
elements in a program and what elements are used...although I guess that
definition would pass for the purposes of competitive consideration. But,
it shouldn't.

Quote:
> She has also made
>comments about her favorite thing to do on ice skates is "just putting
>on music and skating around to it".

Again...she doesn't necessarily choreograph by doing that, however. It can
be a rudimentary sort of choreography or can indicate the beginnings of an
interest and facility in choreography, though.

Quote:
> She doesn't choreograph her
>competitive routines, as far as I know--at least not in "name". I
>wouldn't be surprised if she put her two cents in, however :-).

She might...she might not. I'm sure the choreography mounted on her is
tailored to her abilities and competitive needs...just as they are for all
skaters. Maybe we can convince "International Figure Skating Magazine"
that the next article they should rip off from this newsgroup (  ")  )
should be on how much input various figure skaters have in the
choreography they perform. Inquiring minds want to know for certain.

Quote:
>>>... When Paul
>>>Wylie did "Schindler's List" there was obviously a storyline,
>>>but I do not think he could have done that piece flawlessly
>>>without music.

>>Define flawlessly. 'Naturally' the piece could be 'skated' flawlessly
>>without music. Would it carry the same impact and convey the same
message
>>and emotion. Probably not, but...

>I don't think the choreography would be any more than a pale shadow
>of itself. Paul's another skater with great "phrasing", especially in
that
>piece.

Oh, hey...I forgot something...You mentioned there was "obviously a
storyline," and I'm going to take exception to that. I think the imagery
of the choreography for that piece tells a story (as in Mary Scotvold's
other "dramatized" works for Paul Wylie), but not necessarily a
story'line'. As I said in my last post, the use of character doesn't
necessarily make the literal telling of a story a given. It can help
express emotion and atmosphere and help give shape to the images and ideas
you want to convey. It needn't be indicative of an 'actual' storyline,
even though you are telling a story. It can be impressionistic, rather
than event or timeline driven (Once upon a time...). And I believe Paul
Wylie's "dramatized" or storytelling work is impressionistic.

Marg mentioned hating*** Button's insistence that every skater's long
program tell a story. Ummmm...let's see where I want to start this idea
off...I find it 'really' awful to listen to some skater "tell the story of
their program," the way they'll do sometimes before a skate. You
know..."and this is the part where I get very sad, 'cause my girl has left
me, then I find myself running away from the truth, until I meet a very
old, wise person who tells me there is another day around the bend, and
then I finish off with very happy music where I realize this person is
right, then you see at the end where I actually meet another girl
and...yadda, yadda, yadda." I really loathe when they do that. There is
just 'no' way to put this politely...this is the 'worst,' most naive way
for one to consider choreography.

Now, if this were just the thought-line of the skater as they skated, in
order to sustain the mood or to help them reach and stay in character...no
big deal. It's a common enough sort of device...but, saints preserve us!
Don't tell people that's the story of your program! And, if this is
actually the way the choreography was developed and set...ahem...it's an
'absolutely' horrible way to consider and set choreography. Absolutely
undeveloped artistically. I can't 'imagine' any dance choreographer, worth
their salt, viewing their work in these sorts of terms. If it 'is' so,
then skating choreographers 'definitely' have to make the next step up and
away from that sort of rudimentary process (yeah...I realize alot of times
it's coaches, rather than choreographers, doing the choreography...maybe
that's part of the problem). Anyway, I don't know, but maybe that's the
sort of thing that Marg was talking about in***'s case. And she'd be
absolutely right about fitting square pegs into round holes, just to
fulfill someone's sense of the necessity of there being "a story," in the
way I was just writing about.


Quote:


>> Are skaters Artists? Just as those working in any other
>>artistic medium, they can be artists and can become Artists, if they
>>have the talent, the gifts, their tools, and the drive, the need, to be
>>so.

>Very nice NotDeby

Why, thanx!

Quote:
>--and yes I read the whole thing.

And I hope you rewarded yourself handsomely for it  ").

Quote:
>  Okay, so not all
>skaters are artists.  But they CAN be artists.  Who decides when they've
>made it?

Me, Joelle...I decide. A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, snicker, chortle, snort,
tee-hee-hee, snort, snicker, tee-hee-hee. SIGH.

Ahem. Does an artist ever "make it?" It's an on-going process all your
life, I think. But, if you create art...you are an artist. If you create
High Art, you are an Artist (or if you have an Artistic Vision). I know
that sounds obnoxiously avoiding, but, hear me out. If someone uses their
medium for human expression, they are artists. As Peg indicated, there are
some very workmanlike types of artists, who toil very dryly at their
work...it's not very satisfying to consider them as artists, but by the
most megre definition, they 'are' artists. If skaters meet the objective
criteria for artistry outlined by judges for the purposes of competition,
they can be considered to exhibit artistry within the confines of those
criteria, at least. But, only 'within' those objective criteria. And
'that's' not being an artist. When do they become an artist? When they
decide to make an artistic statement that transcends the need to please
the judges and seek to reach others through their skating; to begin to
develop a means of communicating with others through using the tools of
their medium.

And I think there are 'lots' of different levels of artistry and working
artists. Just as in music, and graphic vs. fine arts, and
dance...whatever. It's more easily illustrated when artists work in an
ensemble, like dancers in a large company or musicians in an orchestra,
than it is by considering artists who basically work in isolation, so to
speak, but there 'are' different levels of achievement in art. Before you
even consider Art.

To raise one's work to the level of Art, it needs to be taken that step
further...there has to be learning and mastery, learning and mastering
one's art, the craft of one's art, and a conscious decision to pursue a
higher level of art...a higher communication, by applying the mastery of
your art to that end. Communication that is about ideas and beauty and
life and truth. Communication through the mastery of your medium. The
spirit moves you there. It is your gift from God.

And there 'is' that "vision thing," not the sort of vision that Artists
sometimes aspire to and work towards, but that which is totally ordained
by God. People who seem "touched" by God and who seem to transcend us mere
mortal working artists, or any of the rest of us mortals, for that matter.
There's no accounting for it...it just 'is.' And it is a rare and fine and
blessed thing...but, not always recognized by the rest of us, either.

So...maybe I should say God decides and us mere mortals are left to duke
it out on the particulars  "). Hmmmmm...I might just stick with that...

Quote:
>Go ahead.  I dare ya.  List what skaters you think are artists and which
>ones are not.  And see who agrees with you.  Because not everyone is even
>going to agree with your criteria.

I think you're missing my point. If I define my criteria for artistry,
then people will agree or disagree with me based on those criteria. Or,
they may say my criteria is lacking and argue their 'own' criteria. It
doesn't have to be a 'universal' criteria, you see. You only have to
decide the criteria you are arguing at that point. Like Peg and Frank were
doing.

And, time is the 'true' test and only true test of the Artist...since,
criteria can be corrupted by the temper of the times...by influence,
money, fashion. The 'best' place to go for an opinion on Art is to those
who are learned in it and to those who are versed in it. It may not be an
infallible place, but, like you go to the best doctor you can for the best
diagnosis available, likewise you can turn to scholarship and/or other
knowledgeable people with regard to art, artistry, artists, and Art.

We ask our newsgroup judges for their invaluable, learned, experienced
opinions on what constitutes good skating all the time. Why is it that
people are 'so' very insistent on being proprietary about what makes art
and what is artistry and who is an artist? You know, just because
something makes a good piece of Art or some Artist is considered to be one
of the best, doesn't mean you 'have' to like them or like the work.
Conversely, if you love something that isn't considered art, it doesn't
mean there is ...

read more »

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Revjoel » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Mark:

Quote:
>It is not a sport because the winner is determined by judges and a
>subjective scoring scale, not by value or points/goals/time/whatever
>scored.  This takes nothing away from Figure skating or any of the other
>non-sports, but it is a fact.  

Nope.  It's not a fact.  It's your opinion.  Just like I don't agree on
everyone's critiera as to what is art --I don't agree with your definition
of sport.  Where does it say sport is not objective?  Doesn't say that.  

I think universal acceptence has some say here.  If something is
universally accepted to be art, then it is  art.  If figure skating, and
gymnastics and what not is accepted as sport, it is sport.

And Notdeby, women's domestic arts, like quilting and such have recently
been recognized by art scholars as art...not only craft (and I don't mean
that "only" in a pejoritive sense)  I say it was art all along.

Joelle
"I feel 100% confident that I can overcome this disease and be
back on the ice within a few months" - Scott Hamilton

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Notde » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>I've got news for you. *I* read original musical intent into it.

(Not having much time left, I'll just knock this bit off.) Of course,
Peg...you're a musician, however (didja notice my comment about the
possibility of driving composer's and musicians nuts with the habit of
choreographing something to music other than what was intended by the
original composer?). Anyway, I venture to say that the 'vast' majority of
the audience has little experience of music the way a musician does. Music
suggests all 'sorts' of things to the average person, lots of times not
related one iota to the composer's intent and meaning.

This is what my ideas are based on...the practical reality of the your
average Joe in the bleacher. And, I venture to say, it's the "reality" of
the way most choreographers hear music, too. I know Balanchine was a
musician and knew music theory, but I'd be hard-pressed to name other
music theorists who choreograph (though I'm sure they exist).

So, natch! Your point of view is valid (and I hope to be able to give it a
real once-over sometime next week)...but, probably not the average
experience of the vast majority of people who view dance, in fact I'd say
you have a very "specialized" experience. Hey, listen! I continually have
to suffer with all these ushers at the Met, who are musicians and opera
fans, telling me just what tripe ballet music is and how opera is 'real'
music. Sigh. What can I say? It's got a good beat...").

Oh, yeah...."Les Sylphides."

NotDeby

"What a luxury it is to be alive, and female, and in a liquid state because of such male beauty." - Various.

"(My mind is) like a high-speed computer. But it only doodles."
 - Rosie O'Donnell
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Cycys » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>Other examples of athletic non-sports:
>Gymnastics, Diving, Freestyle skiing, ski jumping, Boxing (except when
>there is a non-technical knockout)

 Then I like the non-sports better. They're certainly are more difficult
to
master and much more fun to watch not to mention it can also look
like a work of art, this is more than I can say for good ol' football.
I still think you're wrong. Figure skating is basically more than a
sport.

 Jam

*************************************
"There are only three cities in America, San Francisco, New Orleans and New
York."- Tennessee Williams  

Of course, I disagree with San Francisco. It's just a bad imitation of New Orleans.

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Fab4Fan » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Let me describe something that impressed me early with Nicole. It's a
>piece of videotape from a practice session at Sun Valley in, what? 1990?
>'91? Anyway, Nicole is on the ice with a bunch of other skaters, and the
>sound system begins to play the quite lengthy "dance mix" of Madonna's
>"Vogue." Nicole begins to move to this; it's obvious she's not just
>skating around doing jumps or practicing some other routine without the
>music. She begins skating to *this* music. I don't know whether she'd
ever
>tried doing it before, but one thing's for sure, *nobody* does a routine
>this long! So obviously this was not a piece that was choreographed, at
>least not all of it. And all the way through, she's doing this great,
>spontaneous choreography, even taking time out to vamp with Shepherd
Clark
>(who also happened to be on the ice) as if he were a foil put there for
>her to flirt with. Right through to the end. I thought "I sensed this
>skater was amazing, but she is really AMAZING."

Thanks for posting this little tidbit, Trudi.

I guess this confirms my impressions of Nicole a bit. I guess the point
I was trying to make to NotDeby is: this story surprises me not one
tiny little bit.

Frank

Beautiful Downtown Beverly, MA      KA1WZH
"I live in New York, New York, city that never shuts up"--Ani DeFranco
"All alone beneath the starless summer sky"--Marshall Crenshaw
"Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream"--Lennon/McCartney

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by Susan E Sto » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

:  Then I like the non-sports better. They're certainly are more difficult
: to
: master and much more fun to watch not to mention it can also look
: like a work of art, this is more than I can say for good ol' football.
: I still think you're wrong. Figure skating is basically more than a
: sport.

Hmm.  I've often thought that all sports when done well can be works of
art.  Tiger Woods' golf swing strikes my eye as being just as much a
thing of intrinsic beauty and long practice as Michelle Kwan's and Nicole
Bobek's spirals.  As does a perfect three-point shot arcing in for a
nothing-but-net swish.  As does a football spiralling high through the air
powered by the sure arm of a level-headed and sure-footed quarterback.  I
suppose my partial definition of art is any human endeavor that rises above
the merely functional to create beauty.  (As a writer and lover of music
I also look at art as a way of using fiction to illustrate Truth, which
often involves creating ugliness, but that's beyond the scope of my
current point.)

Of course, on a practical level, the beauty in skating is rewarded in
competition, while in the other sports I named the beauty is
incidental--if the basketball player looked awkward and ungainly making
the shot, and the ball bounced off the glass and rolled around the rim, it
would get the same three points as the "art" shot.  But to me the viewer,
the beauty of it *does* matter.  Maybe I'm unusual, but I watch all sports
for aesthetics as well as because I care who wins, and I've seen many an
artist on the basketball court or football field.  Contrariwise, I've
seen a few skaters who perform athletic feats and tricks but never quite
manage to make me think, "That's beautiful!"

--Susan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Susan E. Stone                     * "But human bodies are sic fools
Penn Biology Dept. Academic Office *  For a' their colleges an' schools,

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sstone/  *  They mak enow themsels to vex them."
                                   *            --Robert Burns

 
 
 

Are Skaters really Artists ? (Long)

Post by VINCE-KASPR.. » Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:
> And while I do understand, some educated opinions have more value than
> others...I have some problem with only educated people getting to define
> art..
> I think of a lot of the domestic arts done by women over the
> eons...quilting, tapestry, weaving, ect....used and appreciated by
> uneducated people forever, only recently recognized as art by the
> Educated.  Was it not art before the Educated deemed it to be art?

> Joelle
> "I feel 100% confident that I can overcome this disease and be
> back on the ice within a few months" - Scott Hamilton

I 250% agree with you!!!  Art (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder
(which are windows to the soul).  Art comes from within and is unique and
personal per each individual thereby viewed, interpreted and critiqued in
many different ways. Art is a pure form of self expression and since each
of us is different, each of us has his/her own unique individual way of
expressing ourselves artistically.

Peace be with all of you

Leaundra Kasprzak

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