"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Ellen B. Edgert » Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Just spinning off the Tara Lipinski thread (and incidentally, I don't
CARE if she did a triple-triple last week, all bets are off until she's
16 and has gone through puberty as far as I'm concerned)...

The way I always understood it -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that when
judging how "old" or "young" a skater is, the men seem to be four years
or so ahead of the ladies.  That is to say:

For men, "old" or "getting old" means you're 26 or older, for ladies it
means you're 22 or older (roughly)

For men, "young" means you're younger than 22, for ladies it means you're
younger than 18.

And for men, "very young" means you're younger than 18 (like Takeshi
Honda for example, who is a "baby" at barely 15), for ladies it means
you're younger than 14 (like Tara Lipinski).

However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to say
that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...

It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been successfully
pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul Wylie,
26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend has
been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over the
hill.

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by No Sou » Sun, 31 Mar 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>Just spinning off the Tara Lipinski thread (and incidentally, I don't
>CARE if she did a triple-triple last week, all bets are off until she's
>16 and has gone through puberty as far as I'm concerned)...
>The way I always understood it -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that when
>judging how "old" or "young" a skater is, the men seem to be four years
>or so ahead of the ladies.  That is to say:
>For men, "old" or "getting old" means you're 26 or older, for ladies it
>means you're 22 or older (roughly)
>For men, "young" means you're younger than 22, for ladies it means you're
>younger than 18.
>And for men, "very young" means you're younger than 18 (like Takeshi
>Honda for example, who is a "baby" at barely 15), for ladies it means
>you're younger than 14 (like Tara Lipinski).
>However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
>brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to say
>that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
>nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
>ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...
>It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been successfully
>pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul Wylie,
>26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend has
>been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over the
>hill.

I heard that there will be *** Cells competing at next years
nationals.

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Kaij » Thu, 04 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Just spinning off the Tara Lipinski thread (and incidentally, I don't
> CARE if she did a triple-triple last week, all bets are off until she's
> 16 and has gone through puberty as far as I'm concerned)...

> The way I always understood it -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that when
> judging how "old" or "young" a skater is, the men seem to be four years
> or so ahead of the ladies.  That is to say:

> For men, "old" or "getting old" means you're 26 or older, for ladies it
> means you're 22 or older (roughly)

> For men, "young" means you're younger than 22, for ladies it means you're
> younger than 18.

> And for men, "very young" means you're younger than 18 (like Takeshi
> Honda for example, who is a "baby" at barely 15), for ladies it means
> you're younger than 14 (like Tara Lipinski).

> However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
> brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to say
> that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
> nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
> ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...

> It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been successfully
> pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul Wylie,
> 26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend has
> been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over the
> hill.

So true.  Personally, when/if ladies' competitors reach the average ages of
women gymnasts ("viable" at 11 years old, "ancient" at 18 years old), skating
will become less interesting to me.  This particularly among the ladies.  
Then I'll only watch pairs, ice dancing and the mens competitions, where
"old", mature and artistic skaters still have meaning.

Hopefully this pendulum swing to extreme youth in skating will balance itself
out.  Soon.  The Tara Lipinski's of the skating world are a novelty and cute
as bugs...but artistically they just aren't very interesting.

Kaiju

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by SK89 » Fri, 05 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
>> Paul Wylie at 27 years old<<

Sorry Ellen, Paul Wylie is 31 years old.  He was born October 28, 1964.
 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Annech » Fri, 05 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>Subject:    Re: "Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

>Date:       Wed, 03 Apr 1996 23:56:49 -0800


>> For men, "old" or "getting old" means you're 26 or older, for ladies it

>> However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
>> brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to
say
>> that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
>> nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
>> ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...

>> It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been
successfully
>> pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul
Wylie,
>> 26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend
has
>> been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over
the
>> hill.

>So true.  Personally, when/if ladies' competitors reach the average ages
of
>women gymnasts ("viable" at 11 years old, "ancient" at 18 years old),
skating

>will become less interesting to me.  This particularly among the ladies.
>Then I'll only watch pairs, ice dancing and the mens competitions, where
>"old", mature and artistic skaters still have meaning.

>Hopefully this pendulum swing to extreme youth in skating will balance
itself
>>out.  Soon.  The Tara Lipinski's of the skating world are a novelty and
cute
>as bugs...but artistically they just aren't very interesting.

>Kaiju

I agree with the above two posts.  When I watched Tara skate, I found her
to be "cute" and athletically precocious.  I found myself thinking about
the fact that she may have been too young to have really realized the huge
significiance of skating at the World's.  I wondered how she would handle
the pressure in one, two, three years when being there wasn't a novelty
and would puberty throw off her jumps?  

I have to say that Tara didn't grab me artistically.  I find the "older"
ladies of 18+ (can you imagine the word "older" being used to describe an
18 yr. old!) to be much more interesting.  I do have to say that Michelle
K. did a wonderful interpretation of the music and I look forward to
seeing her get better with age.

For the last few years, I have found the Men's, Ice Dancing, and Pair's
skating to be much more interesting to watch from both an athletic and
artistic perspective.  It seems to me that one needs to have a grasp on
one's inner world and one's place in the world to discover their artistic
self.  I just don't believe that all but the most gifted artist ( maybe a
Mozart) can express their art at the tender age of 13...

I did find Chen Lu and Michelle beautiful to watch this year....The Ladies
competition was much better IMHO this year.  

Liz

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Louis Epste » Fri, 05 Apr 1996 04:00:00

: >> Paul Wylie at 27 years old<<
: Sorry Ellen, Paul Wylie is 31 years old.  He was born October 28, 1964.

She was referring to the age at which he won his Olympic medal.

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Louis Epste » Fri, 05 Apr 1996 04:00:00

: So true.  Personally, when/if ladies' competitors reach the average ages of
: women gymnasts ("viable" at 11 years old, "ancient" at 18 years old), skating

To be fair,a few gymnastic competitors are over 20

: will become less interesting to me.  This particularly among the ladies.  
: Then I'll only watch pairs, ice dancing and the mens competitions, where
: "old", mature and artistic skaters still have meaning.

In pairs,there are certainly man-and-little-girl pairs!

: Hopefully this pendulum swing to extreme youth in skating will balance itself
: out.  Soon.  The Tara Lipinski's of the skating world are a novelty and cute
: as bugs...but artistically they just aren't very interesting.

Lipinski made her Senior National debut a year older than Kwan...nobody in
the pipeline seems likely to set any new records there.

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Kathleen Bratt » Fri, 05 Apr 1996 04:00:00

I think that gymnastics inherently encourages even younger girls than
skating -- artistry is more important in skating than in gymnastics, and
artistry takes years to develop.  And, flexibility is more important in
gymnastics than in skating.  My guess, for what it's worth, is that we
will continue to see more young women skaters -- i.e., Tara, Michelle --
but that there's nothing to inherently shut out women in their
mid-twenties -- and, some of those young women (Tara?) will go through so
many body changes that they won't stay on top very long (though I don't
think there's any way to predict this in individual skaters).


: >
: > However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
: > brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to say
: > that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
: > nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
: > ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...
: >
: > It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been successfully
: > pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul Wylie,
: > 26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend has
: > been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over the
: > hill.

: So true.  Personally, when/if ladies' competitors reach the average ages of
: women gymnasts ("viable" at 11 years old, "ancient" at 18 years old),
: skating will become less interesting to me.  This particularly among the
: ladies.  Then I'll only watch pairs, ice dancing and then mens
: competitions, where "old", mature and artistic skaters stlil have
: meaning.

: Hopefully this pendulum swing to extreme youth in skating will balance
: itself out.  Soon.  The Tara Lipinski's of the skating world are a
: novelty and cute as bugs...but artistically they just aren't very
: interesting.

: Kaiju

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by m.. » Sat, 06 Apr 1996 04:00:00

I've recently seen a few references to Tracey Wainman.  All I've deduced is that
she is Canadian and seems to have been a burnout case of some kind.  Can
anyone fill me in on what her story is, and in what years she skated?

Thank you!

=========================
Erica A. Lipasti

=========================

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Sandra Loosemo » Sun, 07 Apr 1996 04:00:00

   I've recently seen a few references to Tracey Wainman.  All I've
   deduced is that she is Canadian and seems to have been a burnout
   case of some kind.  Can anyone fill me in on what her story is, and
   in what years she skated?

Perhaps I should add this to the FAQ....

Back in 1980, Tracey Wainman was a promising 12-year-old skater.  This
was the last season before the ISU established an age requirement for
competing at worlds, with the exception that skaters who had already
competed at worlds before the rule went into effect would be exempt.
So what did the CFSA do but send Tracey to worlds instead of their
national champion Heather Kemkaran (they only got one slot that year).
Tracey didn't embarass herself, and did go on to win the Canadian
championship in 1981 and genuinely earn her place at worlds that year.
But then the dreaded puberty monster hit, and she also apparently
became totally overcome by all of the expectations and pressure that
were being put on her, and she faded away.  She *did* make a comeback
in her late ***s and won Canadians again in 1986, probably helped by
Elizabeth Manley having a rough season that year.

Tracey eventually turned pro and toured with an ice show, and I think
she may have been in the US Open or some similar pro competition some
years ago.  Tracey was also married to Jozef Sobovcik and is Blade's
mom, BTW.  I think they're now divorced and I don't know what Tracey
is doing for a living now.

-Sandra

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Kaij » Sun, 07 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> I think that gymnastics inherently encourages even younger girls than
> skating -- artistry is more important in skating than in gymnastics, and
> artistry takes years to develop.  And, flexibility is more important in
> gymnastics than in skating.  My guess, for what it's worth, is that we
> will continue to see more young women skaters -- i.e., Tara, Michelle --
> but that there's nothing to inherently shut out women in their
> mid-twenties -- and, some of those young women (Tara?) will go through so
> many body changes that they won't stay on top very long (though I don't
> think there's any way to predict this in individual skaters).

True enough.  Youth doesn't make quite as big a difference in gymnastics,
and perhaps it aids the participants.  Particularly in body size and lack of
fear.  Skating involves much more, particularly since the artistic score weighs
so heavily.  I agree with you completely on all points.

But back to the original topic for a minute.  To me it is like comparing
Shirley Temple to Judy Garland circa 1938-39.  Shirley was cute as could be,
and talented to some extent.  But her talent was limited in the end.  As she
matured, her singing was minimal, and her limitations in dancing and acting was
evident.  Judy, at the same time had a real voice, plus she could really dance
and act.  She went on to a successful *** career.

Emotional problems that Judy had aside, this is how I see Tara and Michelle.  
Tara is undoubtedly a dynamo, she's entertaining, and she has a precocious
ability to make the big jumps.  But I'm wondering if she is a Shirley Temple.  
Michelle, on the other hand, appears to be a Judy Garland.

If my analogy makes any sense...  ;>  Maybe it doesn't.  But this is generally
how I look at the younger ladies skaters.  I have this gut feeling that there a
re a lot of Shirley Temples in that group, and they won't go the distance.

Kaiju

Quote:


> : >
> : > However, it seems that for ladies the standards of "old" are getting
> : > brought down -- I agree that it is absolutely ludicrous for people to say
> : > that Irina Slutskaya (at 17!) is "getting too old to improve" -- what
> : > nonsense.  By 2002, we will have embryos competing for the
> : > ladies' Olympic gold, apparently...
> : >
> : > It's interesting that, in recent years, while men have been successfully
> : > pushing back the age barrier ("old" skaters like 27-year-old Paul Wylie,
> : > 26-year-old Rudy Galindo, and even Brian Boitano), the opposite trend has
> : > been going for the women, where a 17-year-old is now considered over the
> : > hill.

> : So true.  Personally, when/if ladies' competitors reach the average ages of
> : women gymnasts ("viable" at 11 years old, "ancient" at 18 years old),
> : skating will become less interesting to me.  This particularly among the
> : ladies.  Then I'll only watch pairs, ice dancing and then mens
> : competitions, where "old", mature and artistic skaters stlil have
> : meaning.

> : Hopefully this pendulum swing to extreme youth in skating will balance
> : itself out.  Soon.  The Tara Lipinski's of the skating world are a
> : novelty and cute as bugs...but artistically they just aren't very
> : interesting.

> : Kaiju

 
 
 

"Old" and "young" skaters (was: Lipinski)

Post by Melanie Joyn » Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:00:00

Oh gees you're really testing my memory here.  Tracey Wainman burst on
the Canadian scene at the age of 10 sometime in the late '70s.  She placed
third at Canadians in I guess 1980, behind Heather Kemkaren (1978 champ)
and Janet Morrisey (1979 champ).  Kemkaren was sent to the Olympics and
Waiman was sent to World's, where she finished 10th.  Wainman won
Canadians I think in 1981 and maybe 1982 (I can't remember on the second
one, Kay Thompson may have been champ by then). She never quite lived
up to her early promise, although she made a comeback in around 1985 (someone
help me here) when she won Canadians again.  She turned pro shortly after
that, but never got her career going.  She would be in her late 20s now.

Wainman apparently had a difficult amateur career, due to pressure from her
mother and the CFSA.  She came up to the senior ranks in a period when Canada
really didn't have a strong women's contingent; unfortunately she was pushed
too hard too soon, and suffered the physical and mental consequences of
burnout.  I have heard rumours from friends regarding recent changes in her
marital status, but these rumours conflict so frankly I don't know what's
what.  I also heard that she is coaching now, but I don't know where or who.

--