Lyons & Wells triple loops

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Sklar To » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
>and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
>could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
>triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

>-Sandra

It IS hard to see sometimes, Sandra, but I had center ice seats and was
able to tell that both did the triple loop, just not in exact unison.
I believe if it weren't for that jump, they would NOT have place ahead
of Stiegler and Zimmerman.
 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by loosemore-san.. » Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:00:00

I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

-Sandra

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Bill Row » Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:



>>>and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
>>>could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
>>>triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

>Nope, you saw it right--his was a double.

Dick and Peggy missed this during the performance, but I think she caught it
later, when they were doing instant replays.  Typically*** ignored this
"little" flaw.

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Greg Este » Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
> and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
> could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
> triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

> -Sandra

Brian did pop his double - I missed it first time through, and told Peggy
Fleming how foolish she was when she said he only did a double - then ate
my words on the replay.  Goes to show that everybody watches the woman
(girl, in this case) in pairs skating.

Greg

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Susan Sander » Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>>and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
>>could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
>>triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

Nope, you saw it right--his was a double.
 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Lynn J. Fanche » Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
>and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
>could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
>triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

>-Sandra

On the replay after they finished, Button or Boitano remarked on this
as well.  I'm pretty sure you're right.

Isn't she wonderful, though?  Hope he can match her--I like him a lot.
However, she's very likely to outstrip him even further as the years
pass.  She's also going to face the "Kristi" decision--pairs or
singles, or try to do both?

Lynn

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Bill Row » Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
>and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
>could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
>triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?

>-Sandra

As far as I could tell from my tapes, you're right.  I think the press took their
cue from*** Button, who missed this during the coverage.  His comment was
something to the effect of "Well done."  A somewhat forgivable error, since you
can only watch one person at a time, and they looked like they were pretty far
apart on that move.  

Later, in the instant replay, I think Peggy Fleming picked out the fact that he
doubled his.

Bill

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Sean Hen » Fri, 26 Jan 1996 04:00:00

On 24 Jan 1996 in article <Re: Lyons & Wells triple loops>, 'Bill Rowe

Quote:

>As far as I could tell from my tapes, you're right.  I think the press
took  
>their cue from*** Button, who missed this during the coverage.  His
comment was  
>something to the effect of "Well done."  A somewhat forgivable error,
since you  
>can only watch one person at a time, and they looked like they were pretty
far  
>apart on that move.  

>Later, in the instant replay, I think Peggy Fleming picked out the fact
that he  
>doubled his.

My eyes were glued on Lyons too.  Her triple loop looked _great_.
No wonder she mopped up Junior Ladies.

Sean

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Keith Johns » Fri, 02 Feb 1996 04:00:00



:> >
:> >I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
:> >and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
:> >could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
:> >triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?
:> >
:> >-Sandra
:>
:> It IS hard to see sometimes, Sandra, but I had center ice seats and was
:> able to tell that both did the triple loop, just not in exact unison.
:> I believe if it weren't for that jump, they would NOT have place ahead
:> of Stiegler and Zimmerman.
Hers was better than his, and Peggy Fleming even noticed it.
He didn't pop it, but he did double it.

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Sklar To » Fri, 02 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:



>> :> >
>> :> >I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about
Lyons
>> :> >and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.
*But*, I
>> :> >could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did
a
>> :> >triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?
>> :> >

>Sandra's question and the follow-up provides another example
>of why skating judging is so tough.  Apparently we have a
>couple "eye-witnesses" and several more who watched on TV who
>cant agree whether the team did SBS triples or whether Brian o
>only did a double.  (On my TV it looked like a double)  The
>thing is, like all of us, 9 judges had that one look at the
>jumps and while it was obviously very important to the overall
>technical mark the team received, we have no idea whether
>2 or 7 or perhaps all 9 saw it as a 2/3 or vice versa.

You also have to remember where Shelby and Brian did the loops, on the
judges side of the rink, but near the far corner such that it may be
easy for Judges 7, 8, and 9 to see clearly; but otherwise, more
difficult for Judges sitting farther, especially Judges 1 - 5.  Could
this be some sort of strategy as well?  Shelby was the closer one to
the judges than Brian, and she could've block off part of the view of
Brian.
 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Fred Gos » Fri, 02 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Quote:


> :> >
> :> >I've seen reports in the press, and talk here on the net, about Lyons
> :> >and Wells doing those solo triple loops in their program.  *But*, I
> :> >could swear that Brian popped his into a double while Shelby did a
> :> >triple.  Were my eyes really deceiving me?
> :> >

Sandra's question and the follow-up provides another example
of why skating judging is so tough.  Apparently we have a
couple "eye-witnesses" and several more who watched on TV who
cant agree whether the team did SBS triples or whether Brian o
only did a double.  (On my TV it looked like a double)  The
thing is, like all of us, 9 judges had that one look at the
jumps and while it was obviously very important to the overall
technical mark the team received, we have no idea whether
2 or 7 or perhaps all 9 saw it as a 2/3 or vice versa.
 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Fred Gos » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Anyway,  it is wise to remember that the judges are charged with judging
> the program as a *whole* and not as a sum of pieces.   It is possible
> for a skater (or team) to do more and wind up placed lower because
> the overall quality was lower.   A poor triple should not cause a higher
> placement over a good solid double....

Ordinarily I attempt not to argue with people who know more
than I do, but as a long time watcher of pairs skating and
judging, I have to offer these two comments.

1. While every element is important, right now having side
by side triples moves a team to the "elite level" -- if not
you are with "the rest."  The problem M&S are facing at Worlds
and the reason Shelby and Brian are trying so hard to add
this..

2.  I don't care what it says in the rule book or the judging
instructions, a good double is not better than a poor triple
"in the real world..."  I might go as far as to say that fallinhg
on a triple is better than a double axel...

Again, I'm not arguing what the rules say what the judges are
supposed to do --strictly what, from where I sit, really
happens.

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by StatMa » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
>Sandra's question and the follow-up provides another example
>of why skating judging is so tough.  Apparently we have a
>couple "eye-witnesses" and several more who watched on TV who
>cant agree whether the team did SBS triples or whether Brian o
>only did a double.  (On my TV it looked like a double)  The
>thing is, like all of us, 9 judges had that one look at the
>jumps and while it was obviously very important to the overall
>technical mark the team received, we have no idea whether
>2 or 7 or perhaps all 9 saw it as a 2/3 or vice versa.

This is part of the reason why we use 9 judges.   Since the scoring
system uses the median ordinal (placement) that the judges give,  it
is based in majority opinion as to what actually occured.    Essentially
the system toss all the highs and lows and keeps just the middle
placement until there is a need for tie breakers.

Anyway,  it is wise to remember that the judges are charged with judging
the program as a *whole* and not as a sum of pieces.   It is possible
for a skater (or team) to do more and wind up placed lower because
the overall quality was lower.   A poor triple should not cause a higher
placement over a good solid double....

It sometimes happens, but not as often as you may think,  that the
winner is determined by a single element.   Usually there is enough
difference throughout the entire program to make a resonable ranking
based on the quality of the skating.   This is part of why at times
skaters that *technically* do more wind up placing below someone who
performed beautifully but missed or cheated one element.

Anyone can count jumps.  The judges evaluate the skating.  It's the
totality of the skating that determines the winner -- jumps,  spins,
edges, footwork....    And it should be no real surprise to anyone that
frequently the stronger skater is also the better jumper.  The other
moves take strength and sureness to complete well,  strength and
sureness *are* part of the reason why the better jumper is better!

Regards,  Ed.

 
 
 

Lyons & Wells triple loops

Post by Louis Epste » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00

Ed Russell jumped into a phone booth,emerged as StatMan (ed.ed.edu) and

: >Sandra's question and the follow-up provides another example
: >of why skating judging is so tough.  Apparently we have a
: >couple "eye-witnesses" and several more who watched on TV who
: >cant agree whether the team did SBS triples or whether Brian o
: >only did a double.  (On my TV it looked like a double)  The
: >thing is, like all of us, 9 judges had that one look at the
: >jumps and while it was obviously very important to the overall
: >technical mark the team received, we have no idea whether
: >2 or 7 or perhaps all 9 saw it as a 2/3 or vice versa.

: This is part of the reason why we use 9 judges.   Since the scoring
: system uses the median ordinal (placement) that the judges give,  it
: is based in majority opinion as to what actually occured.    Essentially
: the system toss all the highs and lows and keeps just the middle
: placement until there is a need for tie breakers.

Where do the rules ever call for using the median placement as such??
They may have that EFFECT,but I've never seen it used in accounting.