Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Sally » Mon, 08 Jun 1998 04:00:00


In the thread re:  Makeovers, some of the suggestions for making over
next year's eligibles including suggestions geared to changing a skaters
image.   By suggesting that they 'change' or work against their given
image, the author, DesertRoaz, implied that the skaters would be more
successful if they did indeed work against that image.  For example, she
thought that Maria Butyrskaya should work against her image of the
blonde bombshell/sex appeal skater and that Anna Rechnio might be too
much flash and that flash overpowers her skating. While I'm not
disagreeing specifically with the author on her opinions, I'm wondering
if 'image' really does affect judging.  

These are mine:
        Nicole Bobek.  Image:  Inconsistency and the 'bad-girl' of skating.  I
think Nicole is an good example of how image does not seem to affect the
judging.  When she puts it together, the judges ignore her image and
give her credit for her skating.

        Todd Eldredge.  During pre-Oly hype, he was characterized (not by me)
as 'dull' or predictable and, as a result, some commentators thought he
didn't have as much of a chance.  Todd himself seemed to buy into that
image and the subsequent worries when he changed his short, thinking it
would show his sense of humor.  I don't think it worked for him, and, if
he had kept his previous short, he would have been more confident
throughout.  The image of 'dullness' perceived by some commentators, to
me, is more adequately defined as consistency.  I think the judges would
have rewarded Todd for his consistent skate, not his 'dull' image.  

        Michelle Kwan.  Image:  The Whole Package--everything that judges want
skating to be.  This image led to many if not all people believing that
she would win the Olys hands down.  It was all over the media, this news
group, etc.  If there were bets placed, I'm sure they were mostly in her
favor.  Clearly, this image did not affect the judges' decision.  

        Rudy Galindo.  Image:  Has-Been who was too 'different' to win.  Rudy's
skating and his will overcame this image.  'Nuff said.

While a lot of talk regarding skating revolves around judging and the
subjectivity of judging, I just don't see that image really makes a
difference in a judges decision.  The skating overcomes the image and
that, the skating, is what a skater is responsible for.  

JMO,
SallyH

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Ellen B. Edgert » Mon, 08 Jun 1998 04:00:00

:  
:       Todd Eldredge.  During pre-Oly hype, he was characterized (not by me)
: as 'dull' or predictable and, as a result, some commentators thought he
: didn't have as much of a chance.  Todd himself seemed to buy into that
: image and the subsequent worries when he changed his short, thinking it
: would show his sense of humor.

I think his primary reason for changing his short is because "Walk on the
Wild Side" was two years ooooooooold, not because he wanted to show he had
a sense of humor.  If you're doing a Really Serious long program, it's a
good idea to have a short that's a change of pace or a different mood.  If
you wanted to say that he was concerned about being boring, then you could
point to whatever changes were made in Gettysburg 2.

 I don't think it worked for him, and, if
: he had kept his previous short, he would have been more confident
: throughout.  

No, I think "Walk on the Wild Side" had to go.  It was starting to lose
its oomph.  Even Todd seemed to be getting tired of it at Nationals.  

I agree with your other points, just wanted to dissent on this particular
one.

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Vesperti » Mon, 08 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
SallyH writes:

<<While a lot of talk regarding skating revolves around judging and the
subjectivity of judging, I just don't see that image really makes a difference
in a judges decision.  The skating overcomes the image and that, the skating,
is what a skater is responsible for.>>

   This acutally brings to mind a question that I have long wondered about.
Give the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, and the USFSA'a attempts to keep her from
competing in the Olympics (stopped by Tonya's lawsuit and TRO), what if Tonya
had skated the program of a lifetime,including the most technically demanding
program,  and the other major contenders (Chen Lu, Nancy, Oksana) had all
fallen.  Would the judges have actually given Tonya the gold - or any medal for
that matter - or would her suspected criminal activity (the quintessential bad
sportsmanship) have caused the judges to "punish" her by not awarding her a
medal?  What are RSSIF thoughts on this (and apologies if it has been covered,
but I wasn't here at the time.)  

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Jennifer Ly » Mon, 08 Jun 1998 04:00:00

<major snippage>

Quote:
>While a lot of talk regarding skating revolves around judging and the
>subjectivity of judging, I just don't see that image really makes a
>difference in a judges decision.  The skating overcomes the image and
>that, the skating, is what a skater is responsible for.

I guess only the judges know for sure, but I think a skater's image *can*
affect judging. Maybe this was truer in the old days than it is now. For
example, Michelle Kwan has the image of being the "Good Girl". She has a
lot of support from the skating establishment. Tara and Nicole don't have
this kind of support, because of their images. (i.e., "Nicole The Bad
Girl"; "Tara The Spoiled Brat With The Pushy Agent/Parents.") But I think
that if a skater works hard enough, they can overcome any negative image
problems.

Now that I've thought about it, I think a pro skater would have more
difficulty with image than an eligible skater. The judging at pro events
is more subjective, with the winning skaters often getting superior marks
based on reputation rather than merit.

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Morr » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>While a lot of talk regarding skating revolves around judging and the

subjectivity of judging, I just don't see that image really makes a difference
in a judges decision.  The skating overcomes the image and that, the skating,
is what a skater is responsible for.<

While I cannot speak for all judges, I do know my own method of arriving at a
placement for a skater.  I have judged Nationals, Regionals, and Sectional for
many years.  Judging by its very nature is subjective and there is no other way
to judge.  However, if the process used to reach that judgement is consistant
your individual results tend to also be very consistant.  In my own case I note
every move or element of the skaters performance , using plus or minus symbles
to indicate my valuation of the program element.  At the end of the program in
the 15 to 30 seconds given to enter the marks I make a quick tabulation of the
technical elements and use my emotion and gut feeling to arrive at the second
mark.   Immage is not an issue because there is no time to let your mind wander
or you will miss something big time an fell really stupid. BTW feeling stupid
because you miss somthing or make a mistate happens to all judges and it a
humbling experience.  After all is done a judge must feel that He or She has
done their very best and hope the judges review person feel the same.  We do
have to justify every mark given in a judges meeting after every event.  

I am sure Quality Control or someone will go after my spelling but that matters
not because engineers are not supposed to spell correctly.  Yes I am a rocket
scientist or at least can be considered a  rocket engineer.

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by TeeKiLa » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

I actually think that after Nicole's coach had passed away, the skating world
had wanted only the best for her, and she has shown improvement in her public
image.

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Hillary Bey » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>SallyH writes:

><<While a lot of talk regarding skating revolves around judging and the
>subjectivity of judging, I just don't see that image really makes a difference
>in a judges decision.  The skating overcomes the image and that, the skating,
>is what a skater is responsible for.>>

>   This acutally brings to mind a question that I have long wondered about.
>Give the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, and the USFSA'a attempts to keep her from
>competing in the Olympics (stopped by Tonya's lawsuit and TRO), what if Tonya
>had skated the program of a lifetime,including the most technically demanding
>program,  and the other major contenders (Chen Lu, Nancy, Oksana) had all
>fallen.  Would the judges have actually given Tonya the gold - or any medal for
>that matter - or would her suspected criminal activity (the quintessential bad
>sportsmanship) have caused the judges to "punish" her by not awarding her a
>medal?  What are RSSIF thoughts on this (and apologies if it has been covered,
>but I wasn't here at the time.)  

I would think that the judges would have no choice but to award her
the medal. In general, judges try to be objective. No matter your
reputation, the judges have to recognize superior skating with high
marks.

I wonder if she could she be stripped of an Olympic medal, after her
conviction for interfering with the investigation. The  USFSA stripped
Tonya of her National title, but  the attack on Nancy directly
affected the outcome of Nationals. It would be harder to strip Tonya
of an Olympic medal.

Hillary B.

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by HILL JANET SW » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>   This acutally brings to mind a question that I have long wondered about.
>Give the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, and the USFSA'a attempts to keep her from
>competing in the Olympics (stopped by Tonya's lawsuit and TRO), what if Tonya
>had skated the program of a lifetime,including the most technically demanding
>program,  and the other major contenders (Chen Lu, Nancy, Oksana) had all
>fallen.  Would the judges have actually given Tonya the gold - or any medal for
>that matter

Yes.  They'd have given her what her skating deserved.  

There would have been a balance between (1) making d***m sure that the
skating incontrovertedly deserved it and (2) leaning over backward not to
be influenced by anything that had gone before, and they'd have balanced
out.

        janet
--

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by DesertRo » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>I wonder if she could she be stripped of an Olympic medal, after her
>conviction for interfering with the investigation. The  USFSA stripped
>Tonya of her National title, but  the attack on Nancy directly
>affected the outcome of Nationals. It would be harder to strip Tonya
>of an Olympic medal.

I have often wondered: why was the 1994 National title not given to Michelle
after it was stripped from Tonya?
 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by fg.. » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

> >I wonder if she could she be stripped of an Olympic medal, after her
> >conviction for interfering with the investigation. The  USFSA stripped
> >Tonya of her National title, but  the attack on Nancy directly
> >affected the outcome of Nationals. It would be harder to strip Tonya
> >of an Olympic medal.

> I have often wondered: why was the 1994 National title not given to Michelle
> after it was stripped from Tonya?

Because the USFSA committee decided that it was more "impressive" to list the
1994 Ladies title as "vacated" then to retroactively move MKwan up from 2nd
place.  Certainly you can make an arguement that they could have decided this
the other way --making Kwan champion --but the answer to "why didn't they" is
simply that "they didn't."

Fred

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by HILL JANET SW » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>>I wonder if she could she be stripped of an Olympic medal, after her
>>conviction for interfering with the investigation. The  USFSA stripped
>>Tonya of her National title, but  the attack on Nancy directly
>>affected the outcome of Nationals. It would be harder to strip Tonya
>>of an Olympic medal.

>I have often wondered: why was the 1994 National title not given to Michelle
>after it was stripped from Tonya?

Because she didn't win.

I believe that the USFSA wanted to do more than deny Harding the honor of
the gold medal.  By "vacating the title" they preserved the relative order
of finish, but they also in a sense created a memorial to the consequences
of egregiously unsportsmanlike conduct.

        janet
--

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Charism » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>In the thread re:  Makeovers, some of the suggestions for making over
>next year's eligibles including suggestions geared to changing a skaters
>image.   By suggesting that they 'change' or work against their given
>image, the author, DesertRoaz, implied that the skaters would be more
>successful if they did indeed work against that image.  For example, she
>thought that Maria Butyrskaya should work against her image of the
>blonde bombshell/sex appeal skater and that Anna Rechnio might be too
>much flash and that flash overpowers her skating. While I'm not
>disagreeing specifically with the author on her opinions, I'm wondering
>if 'image' really does affect judging.

In a perfect world, judges would simply watch the skater and judge based
just on their skating.  But judges are human.  Yes, image does have
something to do with how well they do.  I strongly believe this.  I wish it
weren't true, but in my honest opinion, it is.  I'm not saying that a skater
is judged on their image alone, but I do think that it is a part of it.

<rest snipped>

Quote:
>JMO,
>SallyH

Charisma


Visit Charisma's Skating Page!!
http://web.jadeinc.com/charisma

 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Virginia Blalo » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>>I wonder if she could she be stripped of an Olympic medal, after her
>>conviction for interfering with the investigation. The  USFSA stripped
>>Tonya of her National title, but  the attack on Nancy directly
>>affected the outcome of Nationals. It would be harder to strip Tonya
>>of an Olympic medal.

>I have often wondered: why was the 1994 National title not given to Michelle
>after it was stripped from Tonya?

No. That title is considered vacant.
 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Virginia Blalo » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00


Thanks for the input. A general question here(for anyone I suppose)

[snippage]

Quote:
> At the end of the program in
>the 15 to 30 seconds given to enter the marks I make a quick tabulation of the
>technical elements and use my emotion and gut feeling to arrive at the second
>mark.  

How many other judges use "emotion and gut feeling" to arrive at the
second mark? We have been so set on telling people that there *are*
some objective criteria used to come to the presentation mark, but
maybe Christine Brennan was more right than we thought she was?

Quote:
>  We do
>have to justify every mark given in a judges meeting after every event.  

How do you justufy "emotion and gut feeling" at the judges meeting?
 
 
 

Skater's Images: do they really matter to judges?

Post by Sally » Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


> Thanks for the input. A general question here(for anyone I suppose)

> [snippage]
> > At the end of the program in
> >the 15 to 30 seconds given to enter the marks I make a quick tabulation of the
> >technical elements and use my emotion and gut feeling to arrive at the second
> >mark.

> How many other judges use "emotion and gut feeling" to arrive at the
> second mark? We have been so set on telling people that there *are*
> some objective criteria used to come to the presentation mark, but
> maybe Christine Brennan was more right than we thought she was?

> >  We do
> >have to justify every mark given in a judges meeting after every event.

> How do you justufy "emotion and gut feeling" at the judges meeting?

This really is an interesting question.  When Michelle won the Nationals
this year, with 15 6.0's under her belt, one specific judge did talk
about how her programs had brought him to tears.  This seems to me = to
emotion and gut feeling.  There was no question that when a program
brings one to tears, it deserves a 6.0.  This seems justifiable in and
of itself.  However, it does completely conflict with our previous
discussions and defenses regarding the "presentation" mark.  In an ideal
world, however, all of the qualities that are incorporated into the
presentation mark should indeed stimulate emotion and a gut feeling.

SallyH