Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by GTO US » Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:34:10


Subject: Re: NEWS:  National Paintball Supply South to provide member benefits
to NCPA LLC


Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 12:20 PM


Quote:
>>Now your attack National paintball supply?  - is that what you're
>>saying Chris - that we're lying?
>Not at all.  I applaud anyone who recognizes the payoffs in investing >in

college paintball.  My point is that it's silly to ask people to sign to >get
something, but not tell them what they can expect to get.

But, you see, Chris, we will tell members what they will get. We just won't
tell you. You are starting to sound like a broken record. We have addressed all
your issues, including membership fees, sponsorship, contracts and the like for
the last 6 months here and on various web sites. We have committed to virtually
wipe the slate clean and put into writing whatever can be negotiated with the
teams. So, then you call us liars.

Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the USAF
Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of Rutgers and
xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the same
old baseless accusations, over and over.

The endless bantering is not only a complete waste of time & effort, but I
believe that is your sole objective. Then when we respond negatively after 6
months of this type of frustrating dialogue, you say we are insulting you. And
after we make changes and agree to rewrite the contract and you lose any base
for argument, you say you won't join because you have been insulted.

Now, you are attacking the sponsors. Get over it, Chris. We are doing this
thing.

Biff Thiele

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Anthony Marigott » Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:40:17

amen to that

--


Quote:
> Subject: Re: NEWS:  National Paintball Supply South to provide member
benefits
> to NCPA LLC


> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 12:20 PM


> >>Now your attack National paintball supply?  - is that what you're
> >>saying Chris - that we're lying?

> >Not at all.  I applaud anyone who recognizes the payoffs in investing >in
> college paintball.  My point is that it's silly to ask people to sign to
>get
> something, but not tell them what they can expect to get.

> But, you see, Chris, we will tell members what they will get. We just
won't
> tell you. You are starting to sound like a broken record. We have
addressed all
> your issues, including membership fees, sponsorship, contracts and the
like for
> the last 6 months here and on various web sites. We have committed to
virtually
> wipe the slate clean and put into writing whatever can be negotiated with
the
> teams. So, then you call us liars.

> Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the
USAF
> Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of
Rutgers and
> xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the
same
> old baseless accusations, over and over.

> The endless bantering is not only a complete waste of time & effort, but I
> believe that is your sole objective. Then when we respond negatively after
6
> months of this type of frustrating dialogue, you say we are insulting you.
And
> after we make changes and agree to rewrite the contract and you lose any
base
> for argument, you say you won't join because you have been insulted.

> Now, you are attacking the sponsors. Get over it, Chris. We are doing this
> thing.

> Biff Thiele


 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Chris Rae » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:19:44


Quote:
>But, you see, Chris, we will tell members what they will get. We just won't
>tell you. You are starting to sound like a broken record. We have addressed all
>your issues, including membership fees, sponsorship, contracts and the like for
>the last 6 months here and on various web sites. We have committed to virtually
>wipe the slate clean and put into writing whatever can be negotiated with the
>teams. So, then you call us liars.

   You've adressed virtually none of my issues and committed to
nothing.  You have four people and one website each giving a different
version of your "offer".  As for telling members what they'll get,
again, the whole problem is you want members to sign first before they
know what they're getting.  What's the big secret?

Quote:
>Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the USAF
>Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of Rutgers and
>xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the same
>old baseless accusations, over and over.

   Those are some of the guys who post regularly on the NCPA web board
- but you forgot Dan Berowski of the twice national champion
University of Illinois, Karen Dunn of Purdue University, Ian Sherran
of University of Wisconsin - Whitewater and Daniel Mills of University
of Central Florida.  Then you have the clubs who don't post but also
won't sign the USPL contract:  Ohio State University, University of
Cincinatti, Arkansas State University, High Tech Institute, etc
(There are more, but I don't want to list anyone I havn't personally
spoken with recently).  I may be the loud one here, but it's the
participants who are your problem.

Quote:
>The endless bantering is not only a complete waste of time & effort, but I
>believe that is your sole objective. Then when we respond negatively after 6
>months of this type of frustrating dialogue, you say we are insulting you. And
>after we make changes and agree to rewrite the contract and you lose any base
>for argument, you say you won't join because you have been insulted.

  <chuckle>  I won't join because in the end, all this "deal" does is
put the USPL in the permantent position of "taxing" college paintball
without having to be accountable to give any benefits back and secure
continued growth.  The fact that the contract has never been written
well just makes it easier to point this out.  In any case, if all this
banter is apparently my sole objective, why come along and start up
two new topics of banter?  Wouldn't slapping my name on two new topics
be exactly what you WOULDN'T want to do?

Quote:
>Now, you are attacking the sponsors. Get over it, Chris. We are doing this
>thing.

   I havn't attacked a sponsor.  I pointed out that keeping a discount
secret was silly.

- Chris
-----------------------------------------
University of Illinois Illini Paintball Warriors Alumni
2000 & 2001 National College Champions
http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/ipw
National Collegiate Paintball Association
http://www.college-paintball.com

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by GTO US » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 06:15:19

<But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just won't
tell you. >

<<What's the big secret?>>

The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals members
get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business what
the membership deals are. That's how its done.

The last secret we told you was a confidential draft of the contract to get
your comments. But, you went public while it was still in the draft stages. We
got 6 months of BS for trusting you.
...............................

<Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the USAF
Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of Rutgers and
xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the same
old baseless accusations, over and over.>

<<Those are some of the guys who post regularly on the NCPA web board.>>

Those are the ONLY guys who post on your web board. I haven't ever heard
anything from Dan Berowski, Karen Dunn, Ian Sherran and Daniel Mills. Better
give them a call and tell them you need to make it appear like you have more
support. Then you can call me a liar, when you run out of things to say.

...............................
<<I may be the loud one here, but it's the participants who are your problem.>>

Nope. Just you. And you are just an annoyance.

..................................
<Then, you and your 7 supporters just keep repeating the same old baseless
accusations, over and over.>

I didn't see a reply to that. Selective responses?

.................................
<<You have four people and one website each giving a different
version of your "offer".>>

ONE OFFER CHRIS!  To join is FREE and we will negotiate  a contract with
anyone, interested. That, of course, does not include you, because as you said
"I won't join because...blah blah blah."

....................................
<<In any case, if all this banter is apparently my sole objective, why come
along and start up two new topics of banter?>>

Because you are a self serving liar that is publically attacking a business
that you admitedly have no interest in doing business with. You are making
accusations regarding our intentions that are absolutely false.

.......................................
<<I havn't attacked a sponsor.  I pointed out that keeping a discount
secret was silly.>>

No, Chris. Telling you anything is silly. Because you have no interest but to
further your baseless, libelous ***.

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by wolf1 » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 07:15:51

LOL, i love you guys. this is really all pointless now. When
you are willing to negotiate for real, which so far you have
not done, contact the REAL NCPA after september. but you
won't will you? because you aren't interested in a fair
contrat, you are intersted only in gaining control of what
could be a very profitable niche without having to be
accountable to anyone, especially not the college clubs.
We've told you what is wrong with your contract and your
attitude, but you won't change either. You want to know why
the others don't care to discuss it? because they are
smarter than some of us and keep their mouths shut on what
is nothing more than a mudslinging campaign. I think many of
your goals, both now and in the past are great. i think your
methods, your attitude and your way of doing buisness is
reprehensible. you have become everything you once said you
opposed.

Quote:

> <But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just won't
> tell you. >

> <<What's the big secret?>>

> The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals members
> get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business what
> the membership deals are. That's how its done.

> The last secret we told you was a confidential draft of the contract to get
> your comments. But, you went public while it was still in the draft stages. We
> got 6 months of BS for trusting you.
> ...............................

> <Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the USAF
> Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of Rutgers and
> xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the same
> old baseless accusations, over and over.>

> <<Those are some of the guys who post regularly on the NCPA web board.>>

> Those are the ONLY guys who post on your web board. I haven't ever heard
> anything from Dan Berowski, Karen Dunn, Ian Sherran and Daniel Mills. Better
> give them a call and tell them you need to make it appear like you have more
> support. Then you can call me a liar, when you run out of things to say.

> ...............................
> <<I may be the loud one here, but it's the participants who are your problem.>>

> Nope. Just you. And you are just an annoyance.

> ..................................
> <Then, you and your 7 supporters just keep repeating the same old baseless
> accusations, over and over.>

> I didn't see a reply to that. Selective responses?

> .................................
> <<You have four people and one website each giving a different
> version of your "offer".>>

> ONE OFFER CHRIS!  To join is FREE and we will negotiate  a contract with
> anyone, interested. That, of course, does not include you, because as you said
> "I won't join because...blah blah blah."

> ....................................
> <<In any case, if all this banter is apparently my sole objective, why come
> along and start up two new topics of banter?>>

> Because you are a self serving liar that is publically attacking a business
> that you admitedly have no interest in doing business with. You are making
> accusations regarding our intentions that are absolutely false.

> .......................................
> <<I havn't attacked a sponsor.  I pointed out that keeping a discount
> secret was silly.>>

> No, Chris. Telling you anything is silly. Because you have no interest but to
> further your baseless, libelous ***.

--

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the Beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Anthony Marigott » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 08:05:31

take his lies to the college big wigs !!let us know what happens....

--


Quote:
> <But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just
won't
> tell you. >

> <<What's the big secret?>>

> The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals
members
> get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business
what
> the membership deals are. That's how its done.

> The last secret we told you was a confidential draft of the contract to
get
> your comments. But, you went public while it was still in the draft
stages. We
> got 6 months of BS for trusting you.
> ...............................

> <Then, you and your 7 supporters - BCNB  of Berry College, MPog  of the
USAF
> Academy, Airtech matrix of the University of Arizona, Ken Carter of
Rutgers and
> xwolf13x, Legacy  & MSpitz, all from Iowa State - just keep repeating the
same
> old baseless accusations, over and over.>

> <<Those are some of the guys who post regularly on the NCPA web board.>>

> Those are the ONLY guys who post on your web board. I haven't ever heard
> anything from Dan Berowski, Karen Dunn, Ian Sherran and Daniel Mills.
Better
> give them a call and tell them you need to make it appear like you have
more
> support. Then you can call me a liar, when you run out of things to say.

> ...............................
> <<I may be the loud one here, but it's the participants who are your
problem.>>

> Nope. Just you. And you are just an annoyance.

> ..................................
> <Then, you and your 7 supporters just keep repeating the same old baseless
> accusations, over and over.>

> I didn't see a reply to that. Selective responses?

> .................................
> <<You have four people and one website each giving a different
> version of your "offer".>>

> ONE OFFER CHRIS!  To join is FREE and we will negotiate  a contract with
> anyone, interested. That, of course, does not include you, because as you
said
> "I won't join because...blah blah blah."

> ....................................
> <<In any case, if all this banter is apparently my sole objective, why
come
> along and start up two new topics of banter?>>

> Because you are a self serving liar that is publically attacking a
business
> that you admitedly have no interest in doing business with. You are making
> accusations regarding our intentions that are absolutely false.

> .......................................
> <<I havn't attacked a sponsor.  I pointed out that keeping a discount
> secret was silly.>>

> No, Chris. Telling you anything is silly. Because you have no interest but
to
> further your baseless, libelous ***.

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Jamie Norwo » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 08:40:10

Quote:

><But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just won't
> tell you. >

><<What's the big secret?>>

> The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals members
> get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business what
> the membership deals are. That's how its done.

FWIW, I would .never. blindly join a club like you suggest. If you have
special deal for members, then tell people. Otherwise, it just sounds
like deceptive marketing to draw me in, get my money, and never hear
from you again.

Jamie

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Anthony Marigott » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 08:44:32

Jamie you have good point there!!

--


Quote:

> ><But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just
won't
> > tell you. >

> ><<What's the big secret?>>

> > The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals
members
> > get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business
what
> > the membership deals are. That's how its done.

> FWIW, I would .never. blindly join a club like you suggest. If you have
> special deal for members, then tell people. Otherwise, it just sounds
> like deceptive marketing to draw me in, get my money, and never hear
> from you again.

> Jamie

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Chris Rae » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 08:55:51

On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:05:31 GMT, "Anthony Marigotta"

Quote:

>take his lies to the college big wigs !!let us know what happens....

  <chuckle>  What lies?  What college big-wigs?  If you mean college
paintball big-wigs, the NCPA *IS* the college paintball big-wigs.

  If you mean the actual colleges, I doubt the USPL wants the colleges
themselves taking a look at the USPL practices.  I don't think they'll
much like the idea of their student organizations making the kind of
obligations the USPL requires of them, but hey, if the USPL wants to
go wake them up to what's going on, great.

  Seriously though Tony, after actually making a whole separate forum
for you on our web board, I'm a little curious as to why you've come
down so *** the NCPA, or what, exactly, you think we're doing
wrong.

- Chris
-----------------------------------------
University of Illinois Illini Paintball Warriors Alumni
2000 & 2001 National College Champions
http://SportToday.org/
National Collegiate Paintball Association
http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Anthony Marigott » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 08:59:36

whoa ..back up ...i really mean to say I'm sorry sorry sorry...i thought you
were the other guy...I'm in total favor of you Chris..i mistook you for him
and him for you...does that make sense?
i read most of what you said in the college forums and I'm all for you!!
please accept my sincere apology..

--


Quote:
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:05:31 GMT, "Anthony Marigotta"

> >take his lies to the college big wigs !!let us know what happens....

>   <chuckle>  What lies?  What college big-wigs?  If you mean college
> paintball big-wigs, the NCPA *IS* the college paintball big-wigs.

>   If you mean the actual colleges, I doubt the USPL wants the colleges
> themselves taking a look at the USPL practices.  I don't think they'll
> much like the idea of their student organizations making the kind of
> obligations the USPL requires of them, but hey, if the USPL wants to
> go wake them up to what's going on, great.

>   Seriously though Tony, after actually making a whole separate forum
> for you on our web board, I'm a little curious as to why you've come
> down so *** the NCPA, or what, exactly, you think we're doing
> wrong.

> - Chris
> -----------------------------------------
> University of Illinois Illini Paintball Warriors Alumni
> 2000 & 2001 National College Champions
> http://SportToday.org/
> National Collegiate Paintball Association
> http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by GTO US » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 09:11:06

<<I would never blindly join a club, like you suggest.>>

Nobody asked you to blindly join anything. You have, however, blindly accepted
Chris point of view.

<<If you have special deal for members, then tell people.>>

We will tell people that are interested in becoming members.

<<Otherwise, it just sounds like deceptive marketing to draw me in, get my
money, and never hear from you again.>>

Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Nobody asked you for a
dime.

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Jamie Norwo » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 09:52:13

Quote:

><<I would never blindly join a club, like you suggest.>>

> Nobody asked you to blindly join anything. You have, however, blindly accepted
> Chris point of view.

I have 'accepted' nothing. I can only go by the information given. He has
given some, accurate or not. You have given... Insults. Gee, who should
I listen to?

Quote:

><<If you have special deal for members, then tell people.>>

> We will tell people that are interested in becoming members.

So why not tell everyone? Why are you so closed about it?

Quote:
><<Otherwise, it just sounds like deceptive marketing to draw me in, get my
> money, and never hear from you again.>>

> Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Nobody asked you for a
> dime.

You are right, I don't. But this is a public PB newsgroup, which you
decided to open this on. If you are not ready to do anything more than
whine and insult people, then leave. If you want to hold a civil
discussion, then stay, and do. But if we ask questions, at least
consider answering, or RESPECTFULLY explain why you will not.

You came to us, not vice-versa.

Jamie

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by Chris Rae » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 10:21:42

On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:59:36 GMT, "Anthony Marigotta"

Quote:

>whoa ..back up ...i really mean to say I'm sorry sorry sorry...i thought you
>were the other guy...I'm in total favor of you Chris..i mistook you for him
>and him for you...does that make sense?
>i read most of what you said in the college forums and I'm all for you!!
>please accept my sincere apology..

  It's all good - although you probably should have picked up that I'm
not the personally agressive one ;).  You definitely threw me for a
loop there - I was like "Uhm, whoah, what happened?  Did I
accidentally***in Tony's cereal?"  Heh.

- Chris
-----------------------------------------
University of Illinois Illini Paintball Warriors Alumni
2000 & 2001 National College Champions
http://SportToday.org/
National Collegiate Paintball Association
http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

Chris Raehl: Sour Grapes

Post by T. Greenin » Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:53:50


Quote:

> ><But, you see, Chris, we WILL tell members what they will get. We just
won't
> > tell you. >

> ><<What's the big secret?>>

> > The big secret is none of your business. You want to know what deals
members
> > get, become a member. If you're not a member, it's none of your business
what
> > the membership deals are. That's how its done.

That has got to be about the single most ridiculous statement yet.  THAT is
how it's done?  I have NEVER seen anyone that was pushing a "product" demand
that you sign a contract BEFORE they will tell you what benefits you will
get.