French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Jay » Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:50:58


Hi all,

Following the stroke cycles posted by Niel (thanks they are AMAZING by
the way), I was watching the French double (both M2x & LM2x) and notice
that they seem to remain connected all the way through the stroke with
acceleration until the blade almost hits the body. Furthermore it seems
like they finish a lot longer than most crews with the hands "coming
apart" (for lack of a better expression) right at the end of the stroke.
  Now compare that to Marcel Hacker and his technique where it seems
like he doesn't hold the acceleration to the end of his stroke,
particularly when the arms come on.

I've used a Rowperfect a couple of time in the last while, really nice
machine and it has it's virtues but I always get the feeling that I
completely loose my finish when I'm using it. I get the feeling that I
have a finish which is similar to Marcel's. I notice that he's not the
only one who does it and I also get the feeling I can tell which crews
use RP's extensively in their training because of the finish which (in
my humble opinion) it develops.

To further "justify" my claims, I get the same feeling when I row feet
out. I know there have been a lot of posts on the feet out debate so I
don't really want to start another massive debate on that, but the same
"apparent weakness" at the finish prevails which it seems I have to do
to prevent myself from flying off the back of the rails. This has been
bothering me for a while because I know I shouldn't fly off the back but
  I can only minimize it and not eliminate it. This brings me back to
the should you be pulling on your shoe's debate we had a while back. I
still can't figure if that's a good thing or not.

Anyway, let the onslaught begin. (Sorry to drag people into this one AGAIN)

Regards

Jay L

 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by David Ran » Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:03:04



Quote:
> Hi all,

> Following the stroke cycles posted by Niel (thanks they are AMAZING by
> the way), I was watching the French double (both M2x & LM2x) and notice
> that they seem to remain connected all the way through the stroke with
> acceleration until the blade almost hits the body. Furthermore it seems
> like they finish a lot longer than most crews with the hands "coming
> apart" (for lack of a better expression) right at the end of the stroke.

I am not sure what you mean by the "hands coming apart"  but it has struck
me in many occasions that the way I was told to "finish" (I don't like that
word) in France is different from the way I am told to "finish" here.

When it comes to sculling, in France, I was asked to row very long at the
back end and to keep accelerating the blade until my hands are almost on
both
sides of the body (I think the way I was told was "until your thumbs are
brushing your ribs") and only then to "release". In England (well,
Cambridge,
really) I was told to finish with a much straighter upper body, put less
pressure at the end and release the blade when my hands are in front of my
body.

To be fair, I have no idea which technique is better; but there is one
certainty: the sculling boats I used in Paris were rigged differently
and allowed for that timing of the release - it always felt very difficult
when I tried to do that in England (the angle of the footplate has
something to
do with it as well).

Quote:
> I've used a Rowperfect a couple of time in the last while, really nice
> machine and it has it's virtues but I always get the feeling that I
> completely loose my finish when I'm using it. I get the feeling that I
> have a finish which is similar to Marcel's. I notice that he's not the
> only one who does it and I also get the feeling I can tell which crews
> use RP's extensively in their training because of the finish which (in my
> humble opinion) it develops.

If I remember well from their training plan, the French team does as little
ergs as possible and do the maximum training on the water (if I am not
mistaken
exercises in the boat start with a B and on the ergs with an E).

Quote:
> To further "justify" my claims, I get the same feeling when I row feet
> out. I know there have been a lot of posts on the feet out debate so I
> don't really want to start another massive debate on that, but the same
> "apparent weakness" at the finish prevails which it seems I have to do to
> prevent myself from flying off the back of the rails. This has been
> bothering me for a while because I know I shouldn't fly off the back but
> I can only minimize it and not eliminate it. This brings me back to the
> should you be pulling on your shoe's debate we had a while back. I still
> can't figure if that's a good thing or not.

Well, there are things I'll never understand: the obsession with feet out,
with square blades, with arms only etc... or rather, the two things I'll
never
understand are (1) the point of spending more times doing those exercises
than
trying to use the benefit of them on the rowing stroke you'll do during a
race... (2) the point of doing exercises that are useful to improve your
rowing
on one specific point but also gives you bad habits on other parts of the
stroke...
But maybe that's just me.

Come to think of it, I have very good videos of the technique that the
FFSA (French ARA) is recommending but I am not too sure I am allowed to
share them.

D.R

Disclaimer: none of the above should be interpreted as an official
statement from any organisation that I may belong to. The above is just the
result of
my (arguably very limited) understanding of the subject I am talking about,
hopefully not too stupidly.

 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Neil Wallac » Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:47:50

Quote:

> Hi all,

> Following the stroke cycles posted by Niel (thanks they are AMAZING by
> the way), I was watching the French double (both M2x & LM2x) and
> notice that they seem to remain connected all the way through the
> stroke with acceleration until the blade almost hits the body.
> Furthermore it seems like they finish a lot longer than most crews
> with the hands "coming apart" (for lack of a better expression) right
>   at the end of the stroke. Now compare that to Marcel Hacker and his
> technique where it seems
> like he doesn't hold the acceleration to the end of his stroke,
> particularly when the arms come on.

> I've used a Rowperfect a couple of time in the last while, really nice
> machine and it has it's virtues but I always get the feeling that I
> completely loose my finish when I'm using it. I get the feeling that I
> have a finish which is similar to Marcel's. I notice that he's not the
> only one who does it and I also get the feeling I can tell which crews
> use RP's extensively in their training because of the finish which (in
> my humble opinion) it develops.

I agree with you on this. Hacker's finish does look odd. His handles are
very close together, and it appears that he takes the work off early.
However, he loads the front end beautifully.
I'll have a look at my Seville disk and see if he looked the same in 1992
(when no-one could get near him all year) as he has for the last 12 months.

FWIW, I tend to agree with you that training on a rowperfect could be the
causative factor.... almost by design you have to concentrate on the front
end.
However, needn't mess up your finish. You have a stroke profile in front of
you.
And Gin and Tonic use RP a lot I believe.... but Peter Haining used to mic
it up with C2 for finish drills if I understand correctly.

I didn't see the French M2x - do they scull similar to the New Zealand W2x?
i.e. late opening of the back (like Rumyana on my strokecycles page)?

And your feet out C2 problems sound odd. I actually like the C2 feet out for
the feel of the finish.
Try a low DF (for reasons I won't go into) and keeping your arms straight as
long as possible.

(Oh, if it is an old C2 make sure your bungee chord isn't knackered.)

 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Jay » Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:15:06

<snip>

Quote:
> I am not sure what you mean by the "hands coming apart"  but it has struck
> me in many occasions that the way I was told to "finish" (I don't like that
> word) in France is different from the way I am told to "finish" here.

Sorry, what I meant was that the hands go further back than finishing on
top of each other.
 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Anto » Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:34:34

Hacker I feel has lost his boat speed because of this very factor.
Following the drive with his legs the upper body is relatively in
effective and accelleration is lost. What is interesting is that
Vonardburg from Switzerland was his training partner and ended up with
the same techniche, a very limited finish in terms of accelleration.
These two spent time in the 2x during this year and both it could be
said are slower this year than last. Perhaps they have reflected each
other in training and gone in the wrong direction?

Its safe to say Vonardburg is a better 4x sculler than single. It is
thought in Switzwreland that he is up and coming however he is not
that young and in comparison to Xeno Mueller who was on the edge of
the final at 19 and already Olympic Champion by 24, he is not in the
same league. Maybe this is something the Swiss did not recognise when
they were so quick to discourage Xeno Mueller's return and encourage
his earlier than anticipated change of nationality.

 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Neil Wallac » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:24:07

Quote:

> Hacker I feel has lost his boat speed because of this very factor.

I wonder whether that sliding rigger boat he trained in also played a part.
A sliding rigger single would be going much faster at the finish than a
normal scull....
 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:49:51

Quote:

> A sliding rigger single would be going much faster at the finish than a
> normal scull....

That would make it easier to maintain pressure in the slower boat, I
guess. I think speed of movement is better imprinted than power
distribution.
 
 
 

French M2x finish vs Marcel Hacker Finish- bring on the erg debate

Post by Neil Wallac » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:29:29

Quote:


>> A sliding rigger single would be going much faster at the finish
>> than a normal scull....

> That would make it easier to maintain pressure in the slower boat, I
> guess. I think speed of movement is better imprinted than power
> distribution.

Agreed.
I wonder though, if feedback from Speedcoach or the like would mean that he
made the sliding rigger boat go quicker by emphasising the catch more.