Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Paul » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 06:24:26


Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
seat heights.

Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
downside to this approach?

Paul

 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Carl » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:29:36


Quote:
> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
> seat heights.

> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
> downside to this approach?

> Paul

Paul -  Why do you need low feet?

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    tinyurl.com/2tqujf



 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Paul » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:41:06


Quote:

> > Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
> > seat heights.

> > Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
> > of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
> > almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
> > until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
> > centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
> > downside to this approach?

> > Paul

> Paul - ?Why do you need low feet?

> Cheers -
> Carl

> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells ? ? ? ?-
> ? ? ?Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: ? Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find: ? ?tinyurl.com/2tqujf



I don't need low feet, I need a low seat (to optimally assist with
balance etc) lowering the feet allow me to lower the seat but retain a
similar relative setup.

Here is my logic:

A single scull will have a higher seat to water height than any other
boat class and therefore a higher centre of mass.

The limiting factor in a single compared to a larger boat is that the
hull gets in the way of lowering your feet further.

Lowering the feet will allow me to lower the seat (and gates) and
still have a similar relative setup but with a lower overall centre of
mass.

So why not minimise the limiting factor by lowering your feet as much
as you can as a first step? But retain a similar bio-mechanical setup
through adjusting the seat height.

 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Carl » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:51:37


Quote:


>>> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
>>> seat heights.

>>> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
>>> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
>>> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
>>> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
>>> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
>>> downside to this approach?

>>> Paul

>> Paul -  Why do you need low feet?

>> Cheers -
>> Carl

>> --
>> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>>       Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
>> Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
>> Find:    tinyurl.com/2tqujf


> I don't need low feet, I need a low seat (to optimally assist with
> balance etc) lowering the feet allow me to lower the seat but retain a
> similar relative setup.

> Here is my logic:

> A single scull will have a higher seat to water height than any other
> boat class and therefore a higher centre of mass.

> The limiting factor in a single compared to a larger boat is that the
> hull gets in the way of lowering your feet further.

> Lowering the feet will allow me to lower the seat (and gates) and
> still have a similar relative setup but with a lower overall centre of
> mass.

> So why not minimise the limiting factor by lowering your feet as much
> as you can as a first step? But retain a similar bio-mechanical setup
> through adjusting the seat height.

I understand perfectly, but that does not quite answer my question, &
you've said you don't need low feet.

So why not try _not_ having low feet?  We win prizes for being fastest,
not for being conformist.  So much of what we do is formulaic with the
argument for the formula either being long-since forgotten, possibly
irrelevant, irrational, or "'cos he said so".

I've known top scullers with feet much higher in the boat than most
would think "right", but they went on to win many races.  You scull, so
the world is your oyster, there are no absolute rules, & what works for
you need not be what others choose.

That was the point of my question.  Remember, you can get a harder catch
the higher you have your feet.  And rowing is a horizontal action, not a
vertical one.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    tinyurl.com/2tqujf


 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Paul » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:59:03


Quote:



> >>> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
> >>> seat heights.

> >>> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
> >>> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
> >>> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
> >>> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
> >>> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
> >>> downside to this approach?

> >>> Paul

> >> Paul - ?Why do you need low feet?

> >> Cheers -
> >> Carl

> >> --
> >> Carl Douglas Racing Shells ? ? ? ?-
> >> ? ? ? Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> >> Write: ? Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> >> Find: ? ?tinyurl.com/2tqujf


> > I don't need low feet, I need a low seat (to optimally assist with
> > balance etc) lowering the feet allow me to lower the seat but retain a
> > similar relative setup.

> > Here is my logic:

> > A single scull will have a higher seat to water height than any other
> > boat class and therefore a higher centre of mass.

> > The limiting factor in a single compared to a larger boat is that the
> > hull gets in the way of lowering your feet further.

> > Lowering the feet will allow me to lower the seat (and gates) and
> > still have a similar relative setup but with a lower overall centre of
> > mass.

> > So why not minimise the limiting factor by lowering your feet as much
> > as you can as a first step? But retain a similar bio-mechanical setup
> > through adjusting the seat height.

> I understand perfectly, but that does not quite answer my question, &
> you've said you don't need low feet.

> So why not try _not_ having low feet? ?We win prizes for being fastest,
> not for being conformist. ?So much of what we do is formulaic with the
> argument for the formula either being long-since forgotten, possibly
> irrelevant, irrational, or "'cos he said so".

> I've known top scullers with feet much higher in the boat than most
> would think "right", but they went on to win many races. ?You scull, so
> the world is your oyster, there are no absolute rules, & what works for
> you need not be what others choose.

> That was the point of my question. ?Remember, you can get a harder catch
> the higher you have your feet. ?And rowing is a horizontal action, not a
> vertical one.

> Cheers -
> Carl

> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells ? ? ? ?-
> ? ? ?Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: ? Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
> Find: ? ?tinyurl.com/2tqujf


> - Show quoted text -

Splitting hairs here but, that standing, could I not lower my seat
further than I lower my feet, and have the higher feet setup you are
referencing but still be overall lower in the boat?

I guess what I am asking is all-else-held-constant, whether having a
lower COM provides a theoretical advantage in a single scull?

 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by Carl » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 09:22:33


Quote:




>>>>> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
>>>>> seat heights.

>>>>> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
>>>>> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
>>>>> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
>>>>> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
>>>>> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
>>>>> downside to this approach?

>>>>> Paul

>>>> Paul -  Why do you need low feet?

>>>> Cheers -
>>>> Carl

>>>> --
>>>> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>>>>        Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
>>>> Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
>>>> Find:    tinyurl.com/2tqujf


>>> I don't need low feet, I need a low seat (to optimally assist with
>>> balance etc) lowering the feet allow me to lower the seat but retain a
>>> similar relative setup.

>>> Here is my logic:

>>> A single scull will have a higher seat to water height than any other
>>> boat class and therefore a higher centre of mass.

>>> The limiting factor in a single compared to a larger boat is that the
>>> hull gets in the way of lowering your feet further.

>>> Lowering the feet will allow me to lower the seat (and gates) and
>>> still have a similar relative setup but with a lower overall centre of
>>> mass.

>>> So why not minimise the limiting factor by lowering your feet as much
>>> as you can as a first step? But retain a similar bio-mechanical setup
>>> through adjusting the seat height.

>> I understand perfectly, but that does not quite answer my question, &
>> you've said you don't need low feet.

>> So why not try _not_ having low feet?  We win prizes for being fastest,
>> not for being conformist.  So much of what we do is formulaic with the
>> argument for the formula either being long-since forgotten, possibly
>> irrelevant, irrational, or "'cos he said so".

>> I've known top scullers with feet much higher in the boat than most
>> would think "right", but they went on to win many races.  You scull, so
>> the world is your oyster, there are no absolute rules, & what works for
>> you need not be what others choose.

>> That was the point of my question.  Remember, you can get a harder catch
>> the higher you have your feet.  And rowing is a horizontal action, not a
>> vertical one.

>> Cheers -
>> Carl

>> - Show quoted text -

> Splitting hairs here but, that standing, could I not lower my seat
> further than I lower my feet, and have the higher feet setup you are
> referencing but still be overall lower in the boat?

> I guess what I am asking is all-else-held-constant, whether having a
> lower COM provides a theoretical advantage in a single scull?

Yes, sitting lower must help your balance.  And since there are no
rational rules, only creeping orthodoxy, on which to determine seat vs
feet levels, yes you can have higher feet with lower seat.

As ever, it's a case of what works for you.  Scullers are all different,
& the great ones learn for themselves what works best.  This doesn't
necessarily mean they don't work with coaches - most do - but that they
work to evaluate what works best for them.

I wish you every success, and I'm encouraged in that by the fact you are
asking these questions.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    tinyurl.com/2tqujf


 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by sull » Sat, 09 Mar 2013 10:08:06


Quote:
> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and
> seat heights.

> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest
> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels
> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)
> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the
> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any
> downside to this approach?

I didn't know that seat height from water
 in a single was higher than other boats.
 
 
 

Single scull setup - feet and seat height.

Post by wmart.. » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 01:40:07

Quote:

> Hi everyone, the final adjustments I need to dial in are my feet and

> seat heights.

> Given the seat height from the water in a single scull is the highest

> of any boat would I be best to set my feet as low as I can (heels

> almost on the hull) then adjust the seat height (most likely down)

> until comfortable? My theory is that lowering the seat will lower the

> centre of mass and lowering the feet will allow for this. Is there any

> downside to this approach?

> Paul

When Carl talks about high feet relative to seat I momentarily envision "recumbent" like on bicycles.  Wonder how feasible that might be.  However, my view on how high or low the feet should be relative to the seat is tempered by whether or not whomever's rowing in the boat can keep their lower back posture safe while pushing like *&%&^ on the foot plates.  That's a hip/hamstring range of motion, core/lower back strength and stability combination that I believe is important.  My discussion last year with Stu McGill has me watching that more carefully than before - I watch to see if they can keep their back from changing shape at the early part of the stroke, or if it gains a bit of flex when they're pushing - if they can keep it solid with no changing, it's better AIUI, and if the lower-back-pelvis are better aligned with each other there's less risk of developing disk bulges and ending rowing careers with nerve impingement.  
So I get people to put the feet low enough to let them keep better posture at the catch.  That STARTS, but doesn't end, with the bottom-inside of the heel somewhere between 16 and 18 cm (vertical) below the aft edge of the seat, and some observation with video to see if the person is rowing safely as well as dynamically.  (discussion with Klaus Filter a couple of years back had 16 cm as a starting point, too, so I feel fairly safe with that as a STARTING height difference)
Walter