Women's Henley rule changes

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by James Eld » Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:53:38


The HWR committee have had their winter meeting and have published the
rule changes for next year's regatta here:

http://www.hwr.org.uk/rules_qualification.asp

Notably:

Elite coxed four has disappeared (hardly surprising)

New rules -
"No crew entered for Senior Eights or Fours shall contain any
oarswoman who has finished in the top 10 at the Women's Eights Head of
the River 2005"

"No crew [entered for Intermediate Eights or Fours] shall contain any
oarswoman who has, finished in the top 25 at the Women's Eights Head
of the River 2005."

In parallel, the guidance to foreign (esp. US) crews on what event to
enter has been increased:

"It is expected that American crews who are Ivy League, division 1
crews and/or who attended the NCAA Championships should enter Elite"
"Division lll and/or those attending NCAA division lll plus sub
varsity and lightweights should enter Senior"

The extra qualifying rules based on Women's Head results will require
some thought.  The new system certainly has the virtue of being more
coherent than it was previously i.e. I would think it *should* mean
that crews (both foreign and domestic) of similar standard/experience
should end up racing each other.

Hmmm, much pondering required...

James

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by mprus.. » Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:17:04

Quote:

> [snip]
> The extra qualifying rules based on Women's Head results will require
> some thought.  The new system certainly has the virtue of being more
> coherent than it was previously i.e. I would think it *should* mean
> that crews (both foreign and domestic) of similar standard/experience
> should end up racing each other.

> Hmmm, much pondering required...

In one sense it's a step in the right direction, away from a purely
status based criteria to something more related to peoples proven
ability - but whether it'll work is another thing.

Some crews (Osiris for example) might just not do the head but maybe
it's more likely that coaches might want to put out a number of more
matched crews and get as many boats as high as they can without getting
inside the limits.

There might be a few more DNSs - a good crew needing a substitute might
find them hard to come by, or they just wouldn't notify the organisers.

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Tob » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:36:57

Quote:
> New rules -
> "No crew entered for Senior Eights or Fours shall contain any
> oarswoman who has finished in the top 10 at the Women's Eights Head of
> the River 2005"

> "No crew [entered for Intermediate Eights or Fours] shall contain any
> oarswoman who has, finished in the top 25 at the Women's Eights Head
> of the River 2005."

What stupid rules! I can see the logic but how are you going to
monitor this? Is someone going to go down the list of everyone head
crew and then compare with entries?

And secondly won't some crews just pull out of Women's Head or rig
crews to make them less competitve, eg two or three comparable eights
instead of a 1st VIII, 2nd VIII, 3rd VIII.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Jon Anderso » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:33:33

Quote:

> Some crews (Osiris for example) might just not do the head but maybe
> it's more likely that coaches might want to put out a number of more
> matched crews and get as many boats as high as they can without getting
> inside the limits.

Matched eights to come 26th and 27th at Tideway...difficult to engineer!
Can you imagine a coach saying to their top rowers: "Listen, if you can
come outside the top 25 instead of in the top 15 like we originally
hoped for this means you can race easier crews at Henley and you can
still pretend you could have made top 15 if you wanted."

Not exactly ambitious is it?
People might just say "Look their first eight had a poor row, they must
be struggling"

Jon
--


    [ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Christopher Anto » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:47:14


Quote:
> What stupid rules! I can see the logic but how are you going to
> monitor this? Is someone going to go down the list of everyone head
> crew and then compare with entries?

How do you think it's done at the moment? Someone does check the names on
the entry form as happens at most regattas in this country.
Quote:

> And secondly won't some crews just pull out of Women's Head or rig
> crews to make them less competitve, eg two or three comparable eights
> instead of a 1st VIII, 2nd VIII, 3rd VIII.

I think most clubs would prefer a good performance in the Head rather than a
crew which might make the quarter final of HWR.
 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Tob » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:14:49

Quote:

> > And secondly won't some crews just pull out of Women's Head or rig
> > crews to make them less competitve, eg two or three comparable eights
> > instead of a 1st VIII, 2nd VIII, 3rd VIII.

> I think most clubs would prefer a good performance in the Head rather than a
> crew which might make the quarter final of HWR.

If you were given the choice between finishing 20th at Women's Head or
winning a Henley Medal what would you go for, I know which one i would
go for!!

I think these rule changes are going to have a major impact on Women's
Head this year, esp for the likes of Mortlake etc...

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Sara » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:37:43

interesting (i was looking to see how it would have affected crews I
know about from last year)

MAA and Vesta (finalists in senior eights) would have been allowed to
enter - their first boats placed 12th and 14th, so just outside of the
top 10

Furnival and MAA finalists in intermediate 4's wouldn't have been
allowed to enter (I think) as crew members placed just inside the top
25

would it not make more sense to limit crews based on last years HWR
results? things like Head of the Charles makes people who place 2nd and
3rd race up in the next level event (club to championship) the
following year.

i'm not saying it's wrong, it's just hard work being part of a growing
womens rowing scene where they need to change the rules almost every
year to try and make the competition fairer - HRR has fewer changes
because it is so established, so entrants to each event know the level
of competition.

Christophe Anton said:

Quote:
> I think most clubs would prefer a good performance in the Head rather
than a
> crew which might make the quarter final of HWR

I'm not sure - henley medals mean a lot! placing 30th in the head AND
getting a henley medal would be ok in most people's books placing 25th
in the head and getting beaten in round 1 or 2 of Senior events not so
fun...

If placing 25th in WeHoRR means that your eight has to race Senior in
HWR despite being low pointed enough for Intermediate AND having had a
chance at a medal at Intermediate. What's next? doing the qualifying
race on the friday and being told that 'you're too fast for
Intermediate, we're putting you into the Senior event'

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Sara » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:38:46

interesting (i was looking to see how it would have affected crews I
know about from last year)

MAA and Vesta (finalists in senior eights) would have been allowed to
enter - their first boats placed 12th and 14th, so just outside of the
top 10

Furnival and MAA finalists in intermediate 4's wouldn't have been
allowed to enter (I think) as crew members placed just inside the top
25

would it not make more sense to limit crews based on last years HWR
results? things like Head of the Charles makes people who place 2nd and
3rd race up in the next level event (club to championship) the
following year.

i'm not saying it's wrong, it's just hard work being part of a growing
womens rowing scene where they need to change the rules almost every
year to try and make the competition fairer - HRR has fewer changes
because it is so established, so entrants to each event know the level
of competition.

Christophe Anton said:

Quote:
> I think most clubs would prefer a good performance in the Head rather
than a
> crew which might make the quarter final of HWR

I'm not sure - henley medals mean a lot! placing 30th in the head AND
getting a henley medal would be ok in most people's books placing 25th
in the head and getting beaten in round 1 or 2 of Senior events not so
fun...

If placing 25th in WeHoRR means that your eight has to race Senior in
HWR despite being low pointed enough for Intermediate AND having had a
chance at a medal at Intermediate. What's next? doing the qualifying
race on the friday and being told that 'you're too fast for
Intermediate, we're putting you into the Senior event'

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Pete Willia » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:57:52

Worked pretty well last year in Senior VIIIs as a guide to the level of the event.

Both finalists MAABC finished 12th and Vesta 14th in the Women's head.

Pete

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Douglas MacFarlan » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:14:35



Quote:

>Worked pretty well last year in Senior VIIIs as a guide to the level of the
>event.

>Both finalists MAABC finished 12th and Vesta 14th in the Women's head.

>Pete

It will only take a few crews who would have finished in the
top end of the head to change their approach for there to be
an effect on other crews. For every crew which drops out of the
top 12 or 25 by spreading their folk around more crews, or not
racing, there will be a crew who finish in the top 12/25 who
wouldn't have in previous years and who will find themselves unable
to race in particular events later in the season.

Douglas

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Jon Anderso » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:35:52

Quote:

> Worked pretty well last year in Senior VIIIs as a guide to the level
> of the event.
> Both finalists MAABC finished 12th and Vesta 14th in the Women's head.

11th and 12th respectively, but yes I agree with your point.
I am not sure any of the semi finallists in Intermediate eights would
have been in under these new rules.

Jon
--


    [ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by Jon Anderso » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:53:22

Quote:

> If you were given the choice between finishing 20th at Women's Head or
> winning a Henley Medal what would you go for, I know which one i would
> go for!!

You're in trouble if one of those matched crews gets inside the top 25
though aren't you?
Then there is the task of actually winning the Henley medal.
With this strategy you take a risk.

Quote:
> I think these rule changes are going to have a major impact on Women's
> Head this year, esp for the likes of Mortlake etc...

As ever, "we shall see".

Jon
--


    [ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by li » Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:16:46

Quote:

> I think most clubs would prefer a good performance in the Head rather than a
> crew which might make the quarter final of HWR.

most clubs - perhaps,  most oarswomen... i have my doubts

(rowers still want to be able to say they've got through x rounds at
henley, it gets hyped much more than the head)

 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by chris harriso » Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:50:29

Quote:


>> If you were given the choice between finishing 20th at Women's Head or
>> winning a Henley Medal what would you go for, I know which one i would
>> go for!!

> You're in trouble if one of those matched crews gets inside the top 25
> though aren't you?
> Then there is the task of actually winning the Henley medal.
> With this strategy you take a risk.

But then, the following year, your shiny Henley Medal scuppers you all
over again as suddenly you're having to race internationals ... the
problems of success!
 
 
 

Women's Henley rule changes

Post by chris harriso » Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:49:42

Quote:

> If placing 25th in WeHoRR means that your eight has to race Senior in
> HWR despite being low pointed enough for Intermediate AND having had a
> chance at a medal at Intermediate. What's next? doing the qualifying
> race on the friday and being told that 'you're too fast for
> Intermediate, we're putting you into the Senior event'

If you're going to have pseudo-arbitrary classifications - Intermediate
and Senior - in addition to a genuine Open class, then why not?

The divvying up of the crews into arbitrary events will always present
problems. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. It is almost a sine
qua non of having qualification rules that you need to continually
tinker with them because people will design their own systems to exploit
loopholes.

You make your crew slightly slower/weaker at the Head either explicitly
or matching several eights. You go slightly slower in qualifying to
avoid the cut-off. You avoid early summer racing to not pick up ARA
points. You have students in a club crew. You race as a nonce club to
perhaps avoid club qualification rules (although I do note that the WHR
rules specify individuals, not clubs).

Or the less ethical options. You buy day tickets (or you have multiple
ARA registrations) for your best people rather than race them as
themselves, so as to be able confuse the scrutineers.

If you build an obstacle, someone will try to skirt around rather than
climb over.