Ergo drag factors

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:44:51


I have a bit of a query and was wondering if anyone had any views
they'd like to share...

I've always used ergs with the drag factor set at 120 - lwt club women
- as this is supposed to be the right drag setting to relate to how it
feels in the boat (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
searching).

Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
setting of about 88. Obviously this is a lot lighter, and intuitively
means that the rower has to pick up the flywheel more quickly at the
front end of the stroke in order to maintain the same wattage/split
etc. My thoughts on this are that it encourages people to stamp on the
footplate harder which is a problem when they return to the water if
they don't get the connection properly at the catch or load the blade
up properly.

Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

Sarah

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:02:03


Quote:

> (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
> but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
> one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
> searching).

Ah, found it in at least one place (but I think it was somewhere else
I originally saw it) - Craig Williams' presentation at the 2006
Coaches Conference suggests a drag of 125 for lwt women. I remember
seeing somewhere else though that for club-level athletes, this should
be 5 points lower.

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by mrusco » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:08:17

Quote:

> Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

Is it not more jarring on your back at the finish because you body will
move faster and there's less resistance on the handle to stop youself?
On slides it would be better.

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:59:53


Quote:

> > (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
> > but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
> > one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
> > searching).

> Ah, found it in at least one place (but I think it was somewhere else
> I originally saw it) - Craig Williams' presentation at the 2006
> Coaches Conference suggests a drag of 125 for lwt women. I remember
> seeing somewhere else though that for club-level athletes, this should
> be 5 points lower.

http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.php?article=damper_lever

don't know why I didn't find this earlier when I was looking - d'oh!

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:55:29

Quote:

> Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
> setting of about 88.

Does the erg go that low?! New (clean) machines often don't go below
110, IME. 110 is a good basis for long pieces for Novice-W or LW. 120
is good test setting, 125 seems already a bit high to me. Be sure to
get enough miles using the test setting, long before any test, or
you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

--
E. Dronkert

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by paul_v_sm.. » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:56:12


Quote:
> I have a bit of a query and was wondering if anyone had any views
> they'd like to share...

> I've always used ergs with the drag factor set at 120 - lwt club women
> - as this is supposed to be the right drag setting to relate to how it
> feels in the boat (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
> but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
> one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
> searching).

> Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
> setting of about 88. Obviously this is a lot lighter, and intuitively
> means that the rower has to pick up the flywheel more quickly at the
> front end of the stroke in order to maintain the same wattage/split
> etc. My thoughts on this are that it encourages people to stamp on the
> footplate harder which is a problem when they return to the water if
> they don't get the connection properly at the catch or load the blade
> up properly.

> Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

> Sarah

We control the amount of force being put on the handle and
subsequently the quality of how it is being put on the footplates,
which also has a lot to do with how the recovery is performed.  The
drag should be adjusted so that the drive time reflects some sort of
reasonable equivalent to what it will be in a boat so that the muscles
are being conditioned to be used at the desired velocity.  Short
version: Slow boats higher DF, Fast Boats lower DF.

Just as there is a fairly narrow range of boat speeds (m/s) from LW1x
to M8+ the desirable DF's also have a fairly narrow range.  The reason
the Ergo has a large range has solely to do with machine maintenance,
100-140 is all that is needed, but as the machine clogs with dust the
damper positions for that range will change.  (Yes, the High DF's can
be used for strength training purposes, but that's more a contrived
use than a design goal.)

Using extremely low DF's can likewise be used as a tool for getting an
athlete to become more agile and quick around the catch.

Your observation regarding there being a problem if the catch timing
and connection is not good when returning to a boat is right on, but
the exercise is designed to aid in fixing that problem, not cause it.
"Stamping" on the catch is no bad thing if the blade is in the water,
but it's horrible if the blade is still in the air, causing a lot of
missed length and burdening team mates with the acceleration of the
offenders mass.

Remember also that Drive length influences the time on drive, so
contrary to intuition, even though a smaller athlete is not usually
going to be pulling as fast a pace, they may need an increase in DF to
keep their time on drive equal when rowing in time with a larger
athlete.  As an example of this see the figure here:
http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/Test01DF_Ratio_S10PS.jpg

If the larger and smaller athlete work independently at the same
distance per stroke (DPS), the  DF must be adjusted to align their
ratios (which would be aligned naturally in a boat, hopefully).
Meaning the smaller athlete rows at a higher DF by about 1 point per
cm of drive length difference.  Conversely, if they row on the Ergo's
together, it is more complicated and often in the opposite direction,
assuming that the smaller rower is also not going to be as fast as the
larger rower in displayed pace.   While they will not be covering the
same DPS while rowing together on the Erg, that's not really a problem
once they get in the boat as that will take care of itself.

Fixing the DPS will enforce the ratio across all paces on the Erg as
long as the athlete maintains drive length, exactly what ratio a
particular coach decides on is up to them but at least there is a way
to keep it consistent across the athletes that will be rowing together
through simple means.  If an athlete can be attuned to a desirable
ratio, they can take that to the boat and even though they do not Erg
at the same pace the action/reaction habits that were established will
remain in place as the boat is moved along at the same speed for
everyone in it.

Conclusion:  Unless everyone on the team is the same build and
strength, the DF will need to be adjusted to normalize drive time if
doing a piece with fixed SR's for everyone, or they can specify a
fixed DPS also with a DF adjustment so that all the athletes train
independently at the same ratio (albeit at paces determined by their
individual fitness).  Finally, it's important that all the athletes
are using the Ergo to practice the stroke that they want to use in a
boat, rather than one that gets them a better Ergo score, because the
habits established will be taken to the boat, and those that say
things like "I only do that on the Erg", probably lie about other
things as well.

- Paul Smith

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:10:35



Quote:

> > Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
> > setting of about 88.

> Does the erg go that low?! New (clean) machines often don't go below
> 110, IME. 110 is a good basis for long pieces for Novice-W or LW. 120
> is good test setting, 125 seems already a bit high to me. Be sure to
> get enough miles using the test setting, long before any test, or
> you'll be unpleasantly surprised.

> --
> E. Dronkert

These are new ergs. I tested the drag when we were told to have the
leaver between 1 and 2 as I thought it was rather low. The ARA quote
125 for international lwts and advises club rowers to row 5 below
this, so 120.
 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:18:03


Quote:

> > I have a bit of a query and was wondering if anyone had any views
> > they'd like to share...

> > I've always used ergs with the drag factor set at 120 - lwt club women
> > - as this is supposed to be the right drag setting to relate to how it
> > feels in the boat (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
> > but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
> > one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
> > searching).

> > Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
> > setting of about 88. Obviously this is a lot lighter, and intuitively
> > means that the rower has to pick up the flywheel more quickly at the
> > front end of the stroke in order to maintain the same wattage/split
> > etc. My thoughts on this are that it encourages people to stamp on the
> > footplate harder which is a problem when they return to the water if
> > they don't get the connection properly at the catch or load the blade
> > up properly.

> > Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

> > Sarah

> We control the amount of force being put on the handle and
> subsequently the quality of how it is being put on the footplates,
> which also has a lot to do with how the recovery is performed.  The
> drag should be adjusted so that the drive time reflects some sort of
> reasonable equivalent to what it will be in a boat so that the muscles
> are being conditioned to be used at the desired velocity.  Short
> version: Slow boats higher DF, Fast Boats lower DF.

> Just as there is a fairly narrow range of boat speeds (m/s) from LW1x
> to M8+ the desirable DF's also have a fairly narrow range.  The reason
> the Ergo has a large range has solely to do with machine maintenance,
> 100-140 is all that is needed, but as the machine clogs with dust the
> damper positions for that range will change.  (Yes, the High DF's can
> be used for strength training purposes, but that's more a contrived
> use than a design goal.)

> Using extremely low DF's can likewise be used as a tool for getting an
> athlete to become more agile and quick around the catch.

> Your observation regarding there being a problem if the catch timing
> and connection is not good when returning to a boat is right on, but
> the exercise is designed to aid in fixing that problem, not cause it.
> "Stamping" on the catch is no bad thing if the blade is in the water,
> but it's horrible if the blade is still in the air, causing a lot of
> missed length and burdening team mates with the acceleration of the
> offenders mass.

But surely this also assumes that the rower in question has good trunk
strength and can therefore open their backs with the required force to
match the speed at which they are then sending their legs down.
Otherwise you'd end up with either a *bum-shove* or a two phase
stroke, neither of which are particularly desirable.

I've done ergs with the damper setting low in the past, as part of a
high intensity piece where we would do 10 strokes at a normal drag,
and then drop the drag and do a further 10 stroke aiming for the same
split and rate, obviously aiming to get the drive happening further
towards the front of the stroke.

Sarah

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> - Paul Smith

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by paul_v_sm.. » Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:52:38


Quote:


> > > I have a bit of a query and was wondering if anyone had any views
> > > they'd like to share...

> > > I've always used ergs with the drag factor set at 120 - lwt club women
> > > - as this is supposed to be the right drag setting to relate to how it
> > > feels in the boat (I can't source the actual document at the moment,
> > > but I'm pretty sure this was in some of the information that came from
> > > one of the ARA coaches conferences a few years ago - I shall keep
> > > searching).

> > > Anyway, my query is regarding being told to now erg with a drag
> > > setting of about 88. Obviously this is a lot lighter, and intuitively
> > > means that the rower has to pick up the flywheel more quickly at the
> > > front end of the stroke in order to maintain the same wattage/split
> > > etc. My thoughts on this are that it encourages people to stamp on the
> > > footplate harder which is a problem when they return to the water if
> > > they don't get the connection properly at the catch or load the blade
> > > up properly.

> > > Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

> > > Sarah

> > We control the amount of force being put on the handle and
> > subsequently the quality of how it is being put on the footplates,
> > which also has a lot to do with how the recovery is performed.  The
> > drag should be adjusted so that the drive time reflects some sort of
> > reasonable equivalent to what it will be in a boat so that the muscles
> > are being conditioned to be used at the desired velocity.  Short
> > version: Slow boats higher DF, Fast Boats lower DF.

> > Just as there is a fairly narrow range of boat speeds (m/s) from LW1x
> > to M8+ the desirable DF's also have a fairly narrow range.  The reason
> > the Ergo has a large range has solely to do with machine maintenance,
> > 100-140 is all that is needed, but as the machine clogs with dust the
> > damper positions for that range will change.  (Yes, the High DF's can
> > be used for strength training purposes, but that's more a contrived
> > use than a design goal.)

> > Using extremely low DF's can likewise be used as a tool for getting an
> > athlete to become more agile and quick around the catch.

> > Your observation regarding there being a problem if the catch timing
> > and connection is not good when returning to a boat is right on, but
> > the exercise is designed to aid in fixing that problem, not cause it.
> > "Stamping" on the catch is no bad thing if the blade is in the water,
> > but it's horrible if the blade is still in the air, causing a lot of
> > missed length and burdening team mates with the acceleration of the
> > offenders mass.

> But surely this also assumes that the rower in question has good trunk
> strength and can therefore open their backs with the required force to
> match the speed at which they are then sending their legs down.
> Otherwise you'd end up with either a *bum-shove* or a two phase
> stroke, neither of which are particularly desirable.

> I've done ergs with the damper setting low in the past, as part of a
> high intensity piece where we would do 10 strokes at a normal drag,
> and then drop the drag and do a further 10 stroke aiming for the same
> split and rate, obviously aiming to get the drive happening further
> towards the front of the stroke.

> Sarah

> > - Paul Smith- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

Well, we should never assume, when we can measure the connection and
coordination of the drive.  This was one of the goals when deveoping
ErgMonitor (tm), as a training aide for rowers when they are on the
Erg.
Quote:
>From left to right:  Coordinated/Sequential, Coordinated/Sequential,

Uncoordinated/Non-sequential
http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/Test01CoordinatedDrive.jpg
Snapshots from ErgMonitor (tm)

This can be used in real-time to aide a rower to train the correct
coordination and sequencing of the drive phase. (They focus on
creating matched profiles, the small details are worked out by the
body through the feedback loop.)
Perhaps even in a way where the DF could be adjusted to determine at
what speed the athlete's coordination breaks down.  They may be able
to coordinate properly at low speed (high DF) but not at the higher
speed (low DF), quite useful when a lot of training meters in a boat
are done at boat speeds lower than racing speed.   It would seem a bit
presumptive to simply expect the athlete to instantly adapt to a
faster contractile rate along with a likely change in ratio outside of
a narrow range, but that is exactly what occurs in many scenarios,
isn't it?

If we can train rowers to do things correctly, albeit slowly, and
gradually increase the speed of the correct actions, it will lead to
higher top end performance.  But the first thing is to determine what
we want to call "correct" and find a way to instill those habits right
from the start.

Your final appears to be a description of what I've heard called the
"complex Ergo" and it is a good exercise in training to help an
athlete learn to become not only quick, but smooth.  Picking up a fast
moving flywheel need not be jerky in any way, just as picking up a
fast moving boat should not be.  The Ergo is just a stable environment
to make early attempts at what will be needed later in the boat.

- Paul Smith

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:49:37


Quote:
> Your final appears to be a description of what I've heard called the
> "complex Ergo" and it is a good exercise in training to help an
> athlete learn to become not only quick, but smooth.  Picking up a fast
> moving flywheel need not be jerky in any way, just as picking up a
> fast moving boat should not be.  The Ergo is just a stable environment
> to make early attempts at what will be needed later in the boat.

Yes, that's what our coach called them - we did them for two sessions
a couple of weeks before our boatraces.

Sarah
PS: you're quite subtle with the marketing! ;)

 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by Sarah » Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:05:38


Quote:
> Your final appears to be a description of what I've heard called the
> "complex Ergo" and it is a good exercise in training to help an
> athlete learn to become not only quick, but smooth.  Picking up a fast
> moving flywheel need not be jerky in any way, just as picking up a
> fast moving boat should not be.  The Ergo is just a stable environment
> to make early attempts at what will be needed later in the boat.

> - Paul Smith

PPS: I think I might know where you heard the term "complex ergo" :D
 
 
 

Ergo drag factors

Post by paul_v_sm.. » Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:30:58


Quote:

> > Your final appears to be a description of what I've heard called the
> > "complex Ergo" and it is a good exercise in training to help an
> > athlete learn to become not only quick, but smooth.  Picking up a fast
> > moving flywheel need not be jerky in any way, just as picking up a
> > fast moving boat should not be.  The Ergo is just a stable environment
> > to make early attempts at what will be needed later in the boat.

> Yes, that's what our coach called them - we did them for two sessions
> a couple of weeks before our boatraces.

> Sarah
> PS: you're quite subtle with the marketing! ;)

Ooops, My Mistake...

Everyone interested in improving their Ergo Training as it relates to
moving boats faster should purchase ErgMonitor (tm), The most advanced
feedback and analysis system available for the C2 Ergometer.

Ergs Don't float, but ErgMonitor will help you Fly!  Ka-Chow!  (inside
joke)

Better?  LOL

Yes, I'm sure you are well acquainted with the person whom I heard the
Term from originally.  What's the young fellow up to these days
anyway, I sure miss a good debate.

- Paul Smith
http://www.ps-sport.net