> >>>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !
> >>>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. ?However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.
> >>>>http://SportToday.org/'s hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://SportToday.org/
> >>>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.
> >>>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?
> >>> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
> >>> people, including
> >>> elites. ?Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
> >>> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
> >>> many slower people.
> >>> The latter thing you say is largely correct, ?if the power's being
> >>> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
> >>> the boat or interfere with the other rowers, ?we can get away with all
> >>> kinds of quirky stuff. ? I will insist that that rower isn't being as
> >>> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
> >>> but that they are still effective enough.
> >>> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges, ? use
> >>> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
> >>> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".
> >>> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
> >>> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
> >>> to ideal.
> >> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
> >> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
> >> full of inefficient moves.
> > It's a well known story because there's mountains of
> > evidence for it.
> > The well known response to this well-known story is that
> > if XXX is doing it it must be at least equally efficient,
> > or if XXX is winning, therefore everything they do must
> > be more efficient than YYY who is not winning.
> >> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the
> > false choice, efficient vs inefficient. ? One may be very slightly
> > more
> > efficient or they may be the same.
> >> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
> >> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
> >> things in rowing)?
> > I wondered at it for a long time, for the same
> > reasons, ?watching many elite crews where more
> > than a few rowers will allow their outside wrist
> > to break, or actively help feather. ? Saw this for
> > 40 years of watching rowing, ?and some very
> > fast crews. ? Murray and Bond have slightly different
> > finishes!
> > ? ?My conclusion(so far) is that by keeping the outside wrist
> > somewhat level to the finish you are able to bring the handle
> > slightly closer to your body.
> > Is it significant? ?Probably not much, I certainly wouldn't try
> > to quantify it.
> > Is there a gain with outside hand feathering that offsets this?
> > I don't think so, ?inside hand doesn't need help for that,
> > what the inside hand needs help with is*** on to an
> > oar handle, ?it is a normal thing for many rowers to dominate
> > the oar with the inside hand (yes because it feathers), ?but
> > I've noticed rowers with outside hand assist aren't any
> > better at outside hand catch help than "classically"
> > trained hands.
> >> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
> >> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
> >> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
> >> has no movement in the wrist.
> >> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
> >> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
> >> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
> >> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
> >> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
> >> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).
> > brand new sweep rowers very naturally will feather
> > with both hands if not taught otherwise, just like they
> > will very naturally tend to lean away from their rigger
> > to extract the oar.
> >> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
> >> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
> >> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
> >> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
> >> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
> >> (viewed from above).
> > Do you mean the lateral curve of the outside hand?
> >> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
> >> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.http://SportToday.org/
> > I'm combining your other response on this post, if you don't mind.
> > <Tinus>Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:
> > "The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
> > but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
> > arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
> > because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."
> > </Tinus>
> > I didn't read the newsletter, but this statement by itself
> > doesn't make sense to me.
> > inside hand produces a higher force because the
> > rower applies a higher force.
> With the well know story I meant that this discussion was following a
> typical RSR storyline. Someone wonders about a certain aspect in elite
> rowing and how it is different from what novice rowers are commonly
> learned. Then people respond with such comments that elite rowing is not
> always perfect and just because it is the fastest way does not mean it
> is the best way.
"people" is almost always me making that response here
on RSR. To be fair, the latter is not what I say. I do say
that the fastest rowers aren't necessarily the most efficient
or technically proficient. There's a subtle difference. There
might be out there, a most efficient way of doing a particular
movement that an elite champion is not doing particularly well.
the cost of that inefficiency, however, is overwhelmed by the
strengths of the other things that athlete might be doing,
or sometimes he/she is so strong as to overwhelm marginal
> I wanted to halt this typical discussion and really look at the wrist
> action and try to reinvent the best; Not using the dogmatic believe that
> the outside wrist should remain flat and not using the common RSR story
> that elite rowers are not always good examples. People have always been
> learned to use the inside wrist for feathering but none is learned why
> you should not use the outside wrist. You use arguments like the inside
> wrist does not need help but you don't use arguments why it is bad if it
> gets help.
I just explained that I have thought this through and why
I think inside hand feathering is marginally more efficient,
I think it allows a slightly more sustained finish. Since
many rowers don't keep blades in sufficiently, however,
that advantage is likely to be moot.
The other reason (which I didn't mention, but I thought
most obvious) for why the inside hand feathers is that at
the finish, it is in a far better position to feather. There is
more room for the wrist to drop if you are pulling in close
to the body, and the the forearm can stay closer to 90
degrees to the oar, making the wrist drop more relaxed.
For the outside hand to feather, the finish is cut off.
no dogma necessary.
> For a brief moment the outside arm is doing no work. See for instance
> this image:
In the images presented, the release is either completed
or in the process of being completed. If you are drawing
in and keeping pressure on the outside hand, once the
blade has begun to come out of the water, pressure
against the water ceases.
> In that particular image the outside wrist remains flat but there is no
> strong reason why it should remain flat. In the next image you see a
> slightly more bended wrists.
> This image also shows that the bend in the wrist
read more »