Sweep feathering

Sweep feathering

Post by John » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 00:45:50


I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action.  However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pA at around 12.40.  There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdraxypQ_U

Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by sull » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 02:56:47


Quote:
> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. ?However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAat around 12.40. ?There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdraxypQ_U

> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
people, including
elites.  Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
many slower people.

The latter thing you say is largely correct,  if the power's being
applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
the boat or interfere with the other rowers,  we can get away with all
kinds of quirky stuff.   I will insist that that rower isn't being as
efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
but that they are still effective enough.

When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges,   use
the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
to ideal.

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by Tinu » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:46:34


Quote:

>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action.  However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAat around 12.40.  There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdraxypQ_U

>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
> people, including
> elites.  Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
> many slower people.

> The latter thing you say is largely correct,  if the power's being
> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
> the boat or interfere with the other rowers,  we can get away with all
> kinds of quirky stuff.   I will insist that that rower isn't being as
> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
> but that they are still effective enough.

> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges,   use
> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
> to ideal.

You start your response to the question with the well known story about
elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
full of inefficient moves.

However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the
inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
things in rowing)?

I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
has no movement in the wrist.
It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
(less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
(view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
(viewed from above).
I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.
http://youtube.googleapis.com/apiplayer?video_id=B2EJ5CVb7pk&start=7&...

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by Tinu » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:02:47


Quote:


>>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

>>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and
>>> doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with
>>> the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show
>>> them this in action. However the videos I have found of high level
>>> rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAat around 12.40. There is a
>>> clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering
>>> mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip
>>> significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in
>>> this US Women's 8 in slow
>>> motionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdraxypQ_U

>>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps
>>> it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so
>>> that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you
>>> can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside
>>> hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the
>>> 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

>>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things
>>> about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of
>>> functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly
>>> at high rates ?

>> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
>> people, including
>> elites. Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
>> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
>> many slower people.

>> The latter thing you say is largely correct, if the power's being
>> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
>> the boat or interfere with the other rowers, we can get away with all
>> kinds of quirky stuff. I will insist that that rower isn't being as
>> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
>> but that they are still effective enough.

>> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges, use
>> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
>> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

>> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
>> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
>> to ideal.

> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
> full of inefficient moves.

> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the
> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
> things in rowing)?

> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
> has no movement in the wrist.
> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
> (viewed from above).
> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.
> http://youtube.googleapis.com/apiplayer?video_id=B2EJ5CVb7pk&start=7&...

Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:

"The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by wmart.. » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:37:20

Quote:

> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action.  However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pA at around 12.40.  There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdraxypQ_U

> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

The big question is - does it really matter as much as a lot of people say?  I too was trained to feather only with the inside hand, and it's probably more efficient to not flex/bend your outside wrist, but does it really matter that much?  Certainly there's less wasted movement if the outside hand is used to move the handle down instead of flexing, and if there's significant flexing of the outside wrist it could indicate a lazy release in which the blade isn't lifted out of the water enough to counter the weight of the oars on the other side, and the boat will lean away from his side even though his blade is close to the water.  That's why it matters - if the oar handle isn't being moved down enough on the release.  If the blade's doing the right thing, and if the rower's not contorting the torso for some reason (disturbing balance), it doesn't really matter.
 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by sull » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:48:41


Quote:


> >> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

> >> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. ?However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

> >>http://SportToday.org/'s hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://SportToday.org/

> >> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

> >> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

> > You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
> > people, including
> > elites. ?Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
> > physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
> > many slower people.

> > The latter thing you say is largely correct, ?if the power's being
> > applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
> > the boat or interfere with the other rowers, ?we can get away with all
> > kinds of quirky stuff. ? I will insist that that rower isn't being as
> > efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
> > but that they are still effective enough.

> > When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges, ? use
> > the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
> > rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

> > In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
> > can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
> > to ideal.

> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
> full of inefficient moves.

It's a well known story because there's mountains of
evidence for it.

The well known response to this well-known story is that
if XXX is doing it it must be at least equally efficient,
or if XXX is winning, therefore everything they do must
be more efficient than YYY who is not winning.

Quote:

> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the

false choice, efficient vs inefficient.   One may be very slightly
more
efficient or they may be the same.

Quote:
> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
> things in rowing)?

I wondered at it for a long time, for the same
reasons,  watching many elite crews where more
than a few rowers will allow their outside wrist
to break, or actively help feather.   Saw this for
40 years of watching rowing,  and some very
fast crews.   Murray and Bond have slightly different
finishes!

  My conclusion(so far) is that by keeping the outside wrist
somewhat level to the finish you are able to bring the handle
slightly closer to your body.

Is it significant?  Probably not much, I certainly wouldn't try
to quantify it.

Is there a gain with outside hand feathering that offsets this?

I don't think so,  inside hand doesn't need help for that,
what the inside hand needs help with is*** on to an
oar handle,  it is a normal thing for many rowers to dominate
the oar with the inside hand (yes because it feathers),  but
I've noticed rowers with outside hand assist aren't any
better at outside hand catch help than "classically"
trained hands.

Quote:

> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
> has no movement in the wrist.
> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

brand new sweep rowers very naturally will feather
with both hands if not taught otherwise, just like they
will very naturally tend to lean away from their rigger
to extract the oar.

Quote:

> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
> (viewed from above).

Do you mean the lateral curve of the outside hand?

Quote:
> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.http://SportToday.org/

I'm combining your other response on this post, if you don't mind.

<Tinus>Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:

"The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."
</Tinus>

I didn't read the newsletter, but this statement by itself
doesn't make sense to me.

inside hand produces a higher force because the
rower applies a higher force.

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by thomas.k.car.. » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:16:59

Quote:

> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may ! I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pA at around 12.40. There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish.

Just to add to the discussion, in the same boat try and check out Alex Gregory's wrist (you can sort of see him at 12:45), you can see he has a considerably flatter wrist. Also combine this with the fact that ATH has the double button arrangement to stop him pulling away from the gate at the finish (something feathering with the outside hand like that wouldnt help with)

To me this is another example of the fact that that there are several "ideals" for how to row a boat fast but there isnt just one way to row a boat fast, in the case of feathering there the ideal to feather and square with the inside hand, but if everything else the athlete is doing works, the blade is well connected to the finish and the finish is smooth then why worry too much about it. The catch is where most attention is needed in my opinion

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by Tinu » Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:26:13


Quote:



>>>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

>>>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action.  However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

>>>> http://SportToday.org/;There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://SportToday.org/

>>>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

>>>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

>>> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
>>> people, including
>>> elites.  Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
>>> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
>>> many slower people.

>>> The latter thing you say is largely correct,  if the power's being
>>> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
>>> the boat or interfere with the other rowers,  we can get away with all
>>> kinds of quirky stuff.   I will insist that that rower isn't being as
>>> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
>>> but that they are still effective enough.

>>> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges,   use
>>> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
>>> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

>>> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
>>> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
>>> to ideal.

>> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
>> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
>> full of inefficient moves.

> It's a well known story because there's mountains of
> evidence for it.

> The well known response to this well-known story is that
> if XXX is doing it it must be at least equally efficient,
> or if XXX is winning, therefore everything they do must
> be more efficient than YYY who is not winning.

>> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the

> false choice, efficient vs inefficient.   One may be very slightly
> more
> efficient or they may be the same.

>> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
>> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
>> things in rowing)?

> I wondered at it for a long time, for the same
> reasons,  watching many elite crews where more
> than a few rowers will allow their outside wrist
> to break, or actively help feather.   Saw this for
> 40 years of watching rowing,  and some very
> fast crews.   Murray and Bond have slightly different
> finishes!

>    My conclusion(so far) is that by keeping the outside wrist
> somewhat level to the finish you are able to bring the handle
> slightly closer to your body.

> Is it significant?  Probably not much, I certainly wouldn't try
> to quantify it.

> Is there a gain with outside hand feathering that offsets this?

> I don't think so,  inside hand doesn't need help for that,
> what the inside hand needs help with is*** on to an
> oar handle,  it is a normal thing for many rowers to dominate
> the oar with the inside hand (yes because it feathers),  but
> I've noticed rowers with outside hand assist aren't any
> better at outside hand catch help than "classically"
> trained hands.

>> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
>> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
>> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
>> has no movement in the wrist.
>> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
>> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
>> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
>> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
>> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
>> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

> brand new sweep rowers very naturally will feather
> with both hands if not taught otherwise, just like they
> will very naturally tend to lean away from their rigger
> to extract the oar.

>> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
>> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
>> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
>> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
>> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
>> (viewed from above).

> Do you mean the lateral curve of the outside hand?

>> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
>> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.http://SportToday.org/

> I'm combining your other response on this post, if you don't mind.

> <Tinus>Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:

> "The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
> but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
> arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
> because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."
> </Tinus>

> I didn't read the newsletter, but this statement by itself
> doesn't make sense to me.

> inside hand produces a higher force because the
> rower applies a higher force.

With the well know story I meant that this discussion was following a
typical RSR storyline. Someone wonders about a certain aspect in elite
rowing and how it is different from what novice rowers are commonly
learned. Then people respond with such comments that elite rowing is not
always perfect and just because it is the fastest way does not mean it
is the best way.

I wanted to halt this typical discussion and really look at the wrist
action and try to reinvent the best; Not using the dogmatic believe that
the outside wrist should remain flat and not using the common RSR story
that elite rowers are not always good examples. People have always been
learned to use the inside wrist for feathering but none is learned why
you should not use the outside wrist. You use arguments like the inside
wrist does not need help but you don't use arguments why it is bad if it
gets help.

For a brief moment the outside arm is doing no work. See for instance
this image:

http://SportToday.org/

In that particular image the outside wrist remains flat but there is no
strong reason why it should remain flat. In the next image you see a
slightly more bended wrists.

http://SportToday.org/

This image also shows that the bend in the wrist isn't really a
feathering motion. Walter noticed that although the bending doesn't
really hurt much it may possibly require a larger motion (a larger
downwards motion is  what I imagined). I doubt this. Bending the outside
wrist, like in that picture is creating a shorter distance between elbow
and handle. It means that outside arm requires less backwards motion
resulting in a more relaxed position. Also bending the wrist allows a
change of the contact point from the fingers to the palm. With a
straight wrist you can not push the oar with the palm.

Bottom line is that this is not just a story of looking at the elite
rowers and guessing that whatever they do must be good. This is also a
story of being dogmatically taught that the outside wrist must remain
flat while it may not be a necessity and possibly an alternative may
even be better.

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by sull » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 03:01:33


Quote:




> >>>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

> >>>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. ?However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

> >>>>http://SportToday.org/'s hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow motionhttp://SportToday.org/

> >>>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

> >>>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of functions between the hands is not what really happens, particularly at high rates ?

> >>> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
> >>> people, including
> >>> elites. ?Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
> >>> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
> >>> many slower people.

> >>> The latter thing you say is largely correct, ?if the power's being
> >>> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
> >>> the boat or interfere with the other rowers, ?we can get away with all
> >>> kinds of quirky stuff. ? I will insist that that rower isn't being as
> >>> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
> >>> but that they are still effective enough.

> >>> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges, ? use
> >>> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
> >>> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

> >>> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
> >>> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
> >>> to ideal.

> >> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
> >> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
> >> full of inefficient moves.

> > It's a well known story because there's mountains of
> > evidence for it.

> > The well known response to this well-known story is that
> > if XXX is doing it it must be at least equally efficient,
> > or if XXX is winning, therefore everything they do must
> > be more efficient than YYY who is not winning.

> >> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the

> > false choice, efficient vs inefficient. ? One may be very slightly
> > more
> > efficient or they may be the same.

> >> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
> >> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
> >> things in rowing)?

> > I wondered at it for a long time, for the same
> > reasons, ?watching many elite crews where more
> > than a few rowers will allow their outside wrist
> > to break, or actively help feather. ? Saw this for
> > 40 years of watching rowing, ?and some very
> > fast crews. ? Murray and Bond have slightly different
> > finishes!

> > ? ?My conclusion(so far) is that by keeping the outside wrist
> > somewhat level to the finish you are able to bring the handle
> > slightly closer to your body.

> > Is it significant? ?Probably not much, I certainly wouldn't try
> > to quantify it.

> > Is there a gain with outside hand feathering that offsets this?

> > I don't think so, ?inside hand doesn't need help for that,
> > what the inside hand needs help with is*** on to an
> > oar handle, ?it is a normal thing for many rowers to dominate
> > the oar with the inside hand (yes because it feathers), ?but
> > I've noticed rowers with outside hand assist aren't any
> > better at outside hand catch help than "classically"
> > trained hands.

> >> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
> >> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
> >> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
> >> has no movement in the wrist.
> >> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
> >> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
> >> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
> >> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
> >> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
> >> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

> > brand new sweep rowers very naturally will feather
> > with both hands if not taught otherwise, just like they
> > will very naturally tend to lean away from their rigger
> > to extract the oar.

> >> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
> >> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
> >> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
> >> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
> >> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
> >> (viewed from above).

> > Do you mean the lateral curve of the outside hand?

> >> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
> >> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the finish.http://SportToday.org/

> > I'm combining your other response on this post, if you don't mind.

> > <Tinus>Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:

> > "The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
> > but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
> > arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
> > because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."
> > </Tinus>

> > I didn't read the newsletter, but this statement by itself
> > doesn't make sense to me.

> > inside hand produces a higher force because the
> > rower applies a higher force.

> With the well know story I meant that this discussion was following a
> typical RSR storyline. Someone wonders about a certain aspect in elite
> rowing and how it is different from what novice rowers are commonly
> learned. Then people respond with such comments that elite rowing is not
> always perfect and just because it is the fastest way does not mean it
> is the best way.

"people" is almost always me making that response here
on RSR.    To be fair, the latter is not what I say.   I do say
that the fastest rowers aren't necessarily the most efficient
or technically proficient.    There's a subtle difference.    There
might be out there, a most efficient way of doing a particular
movement that an elite champion is not doing particularly well.
the cost of that inefficiency, however, is overwhelmed by the
strengths of the other things that athlete might be doing,
or sometimes he/she is so strong as to overwhelm marginal
inefficiencies.

Quote:

> I wanted to halt this typical discussion and really look at the wrist
> action and try to reinvent the best; Not using the dogmatic believe that
> the outside wrist should remain flat and not using the common RSR story
> that elite rowers are not always good examples. People have always been
> learned to use the inside wrist for feathering but none is learned why
> you should not use the outside wrist. You use arguments like the inside
> wrist does not need help but you don't use arguments why it is bad if it
> gets help.

I just explained that I have thought this through and why
I think inside hand feathering is marginally more efficient,
I think it allows a slightly more sustained finish.  Since
many rowers don't keep blades in sufficiently, however,
that advantage is likely to be moot.

The other reason (which I didn't mention, but I thought
most obvious) for why the inside hand feathers is that at
the finish, it is in a far better position to feather.   There is
more room for the wrist to drop if you are pulling in close
to the body, and the the forearm can stay closer to 90
degrees to the oar, making the wrist drop more relaxed.

For the outside hand to feather,  the finish is cut off.

no dogma necessary.

Quote:

> For a brief moment the outside arm is doing no work. See for instance
> this image:

In the images presented, the release is either completed
or in the process of being completed.   If you are drawing
in and keeping pressure on the outside hand,  once the
blade has begun to come out of the water, pressure
against the water ceases.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

> http://SportToday.org/

> In that particular image the outside wrist remains flat but there is no
> strong reason why it should remain flat. In the next image you see a
> slightly more bended wrists.

> http://SportToday.org/

> This image also shows that the bend in the wrist

...

read more »

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by sull » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 03:16:03


Quote:

> > I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may ! I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAat around 12.40. There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish.

> Just to add to the discussion, in the same boat try and check out Alex Gregory's wrist (you can sort of see him at 12:45), you can see he has a considerably flatter wrist. Also combine this with the fact that ATH has the double button arrangement to stop him pulling away from the gate at the finish (something feathering with the outside hand like that wouldnt help with)

> To me this is another example of the fact that that there are several "ideals" for how to row a boat fast but there isnt just one way to row a boat fast, in the case of feathering there the ideal to feather and square with the inside hand, but if everything else the athlete is doing works, the blade is well connected to the finish and the finish is smooth then why worry too much about it. The catch is where most attention is needed in my opinion

The salient point in the discussion is 'what should the coach teach'?

I've made the very strong point in the past that there are some things
that certain athletes do that are less efficient, but helps their
ability
to push themselves hard, and their bodies over time physiologically
adapt to those motions such that to modify the technique may be
more damaging than helpful.

There are other things that great athletes will let slip in their
technique, but as you suggest above,  isn't worth the time
to try to focus on, particularly given a time of season/year,
and can seem like more a matter of "style points".

Coaches are human.   "the boat's moving well, why mess
with it?"

The act of sweep rowing pushes us constantly to dominate
the inside hand.  Because the inside hand feathers, unless
we learn, concentrate on it, the inside hand will end up doing
more of the pulling, have complete control of catch/release,
etc, with the out hand simply helping pull and recover a little.

I would be very interested to know if there are coaches
out there teaching rowers to allow the outside hand to
feather, or to actively feather with the outside hand, and
why.

As to the catch,  even if the catch to you is more important,
we can go to many elite crews and find some awful catches
(relatively that is).

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by andymckenzi.. » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 18:29:41

Quote:



> > > I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may ! I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAat around 12.40. There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish.

> > Just to add to the discussion, in the same boat try and check out Alex Gregory's wrist (you can sort of see him at 12:45), you can see he has a considerably flatter wrist. Also combine this with the fact that ATH has the double button arrangement to stop him pulling away from the gate at the finish (something feathering with the outside hand like that wouldnt help with)

> > To me this is another example of the fact that that there are several "ideals" for how to row a boat fast but there isnt just one way to row a boat fast, in the case of feathering there the ideal to feather and square with the inside hand, but if everything else the athlete is doing works, the blade is well connected to the finish and the finish is smooth then why worry too much about it. The catch is where most attention is needed in my opinion

> The salient point in the discussion is 'what should the coach teach'?

> I've made the very strong point in the past that there are some things

> that certain athletes do that are less efficient, but helps their

> ability

> to push themselves hard, and their bodies over time physiologically

> adapt to those motions such that to modify the technique may be

> more damaging than helpful.

> There are other things that great athletes will let slip in their

> technique, but as you suggest above,  isn't worth the time

> to try to focus on, particularly given a time of season/year,

> and can seem like more a matter of "style points".

> Coaches are human.   "the boat's moving well, why mess

> with it?"

> The act of sweep rowing pushes us constantly to dominate

> the inside hand.  Because the inside hand feathers, unless

> we learn, concentrate on it, the inside hand will end up doing

> more of the pulling, have complete control of catch/release,

> etc, with the out hand simply helping pull and recover a little.

> I would be very interested to know if there are coaches

> out there teaching rowers to allow the outside hand to

> feather, or to actively feather with the outside hand, and

> why.

> As to the catch,  even if the catch to you is more important,

> we can go to many elite crews and find some awful catches

> (relatively that is).

Surely the issue isn't sweep feathering but sweep squaring? As a hack-about recreational rower with zero flexibility, I am often focused on trying to lengthen out my stroke - and at the moment of the catch the stretched out outside hand isn't really in a position to control the blade. I know that practically the blade should have been squared up earlier, but knowing and doing aren't the same.

Certainly when I began to regularly swap sides, after a lifetime of committed bow side, I found I had issues because I was still feathering with my left hand, leading to high strain on a wrist that wasn't flat at the catch. With beginners now I tend to coach inside hand squaring and feathering, but tell them not to get too hung up on it, mainly because I am always really keen on having ambisidereous [a word that should exist!] rowers.

Andy McKenzie

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by JK » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:14:38

"ambisidereous" - I prefer "bisweptual" always raises a few smiles and a few confused looks!
 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by Peter For » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:29:48

<snip>

Quote:
>With beginners now I tend to coach inside hand squaring and feathering, but tell them not to get too hung up on it, mainly because I am always really keen on having ambisidereous [a word that should exist!] rowers.

> Andy McKenzie

We've always gone with 'bisweptual' as the terminology...

I've always struggled with sweep squaring, having rather small hands/fingers, so how best to deal with the issue has always confused me a little.

I think the reason I like to see my rowers keeping their outside wrist close to flat is to help them keep control of the vertical movements around the finish; those who bend their wrist as they release (whether as part of the action of feathering or for other reasons) tend to move their forearms with the same movements as those with flat wrists, leading to:
a) slower vertical movement
b) tapping down less far
than the rest of the crew, needing adjustment in other parts of the stroke to compensate.

I'm sure elite rowers have learned to finish accurately and subtly independent of what they do with their wrists, but I feel it's a useful mantra to run with in the context of less experienced rowers, and particularly with the all-important task of trying to mould 8 different sets of movements into a unified whole in a few short weeks!

However, perusal of the Daily Mail will show that I'm not entirely successful with propagating this mantra...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/17/article-2263837-16FE3808000...
(from this article on things being cold http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263837/UK-snow-forecast-Airp... )

Peter

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by sull » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:30:49


Quote:



> > > > I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may ! I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos to show them this in action. However the videos I have found of high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6wHZNWF7pAataround 12.40. There is a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside wrist does dip significantly at the finish.

> > > Just to add to the discussion, in the same boat try and check out Alex Gregory's wrist (you can sort of see him at 12:45), you can see he has a considerably flatter wrist. Also combine this with the fact that ATH has the double button arrangement to stop him pulling away from the gate at the finish (something feathering with the outside hand like that wouldnt help with)

> > > To me this is another example of the fact that that there are several "ideals" for how to row a boat fast but there isnt just one way to row a boat fast, in the case of feathering there the ideal to feather and square with the inside hand, but if everything else the athlete is doing works, the blade is well connected to the finish and the finish is smooth then why worry too much about it. The catch is where most attention is needed in my opinion

> > The salient point in the discussion is 'what should the coach teach'?

> > I've made the very strong point in the past that there are some things

> > that certain athletes do that are less efficient, but helps their

> > ability

> > to push themselves hard, and their bodies over time physiologically

> > adapt to those motions such that to modify the technique may be

> > more damaging than helpful.

> > There are other things that great athletes will let slip in their

> > technique, but as you suggest above, ?isn't worth the time

> > to try to focus on, particularly given a time of season/year,

> > and can seem like more a matter of "style points".

> > Coaches are human. ? "the boat's moving well, why mess

> > with it?"

> > The act of sweep rowing pushes us constantly to dominate

> > the inside hand. ?Because the inside hand feathers, unless

> > we learn, concentrate on it, the inside hand will end up doing

> > more of the pulling, have complete control of catch/release,

> > etc, with the out hand simply helping pull and recover a little.

> > I would be very interested to know if there are coaches

> > out there teaching rowers to allow the outside hand to

> > feather, or to actively feather with the outside hand, and

> > why.

> > As to the catch, ?even if the catch to you is more important,

> > we can go to many elite crews and find some awful catches

> > (relatively that is).

> Surely the issue isn't sweep feathering but sweep squaring? As a hack-about recreational rower with zero flexibility, I am often focused on trying to lengthen out my stroke - and at the moment of the catch the stretched out outside hand isn't really in a position to control the blade. I know that practically the blade should have been squared up earlier, but knowing and doing aren't the same.

> Certainly when I began to regularly swap sides, after a lifetime of committed bow side, I found I had issues because I was still feathering with my left hand, leading to high strain on a wrist that wasn't flat at the catch. With beginners now I tend to coach inside hand squaring and feathering, but tell them not to get too hung up on it, mainly because I am always really keen on having ambisidereous [a word that should exist!] rowers.

> Andy McKenzie

I rowed both sides, competed in a pair at nationals or trials on
either.

When I coached college I regularly had my best athletes switch sides
in either junior or senior year,  helps re-wire the brain,  give them
new challenge and good athletes learn quickly.  Gives me much more
flexibility in boating up your best eight guys, especially in a
smaller program that isn't deep in really good athletes.

none of us had issues with learning inside hand feathering, FYI.

 
 
 

Sweep feathering

Post by Carl » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 04:29:33


Quote:




>>>>> I would appreciate comments on hand use in sweep rowing, if I may !

>>>>> I have been coaching a group of relatively inexperienced rowers and
>>>>> doing the usual 'feather with the inside hand, draw through more
>>>>> with the outside arm' thing and said that I would find some videos
>>>>> to show them this in action.  However the videos I have found of
>>>>> high level rowers seem to, at least partly, contradict this.

>>>>> http://SportToday.org/;There is
>>>>> a clear view of ATH's hands and while it looks like he is
>>>>> feathering mainly with his inside hand at the catch his outside
>>>>> wrist does dip significantly at the finish. You can see similar
>>>>> things going on in this US Women's 8 in slow
>>>>> motionhttp://SportToday.org/

>>>>> Looking at other 'elite' videos this seems pretty standard. Perhaps
>>>>> it is about getting the handle in a position in the outside hand so
>>>>> that it makes contact with the base of your fingers/palm so that
>>>>> you can push the handle away ? Maybe, but it does look like the
>>>>> outside hand is also helping with the feathering so does this go
>>>>> against the 'conventional wisdom' of rowing.

>>>>> Perhaps teaching the standard way is how to get people doing things
>>>>> about right but that the reality is that a clear segregation of
>>>>> functions between the hands is not what really happens,
>>>>> particularly at high rates ?

>>>> You are going to find all kinds of quirks and flaws in all kinds of
>>>> people, including
>>>> elites.  Many elites end up in fast boats because of incredible
>>>> physiology and solid training, but don't row more efficiently than
>>>> many slower people.

>>>> The latter thing you say is largely correct,  if the power's being
>>>> applied to the blade and the body isn't doing things to radically slow
>>>> the boat or interfere with the other rowers,  we can get away with all
>>>> kinds of quirky stuff.   I will insist that that rower isn't being as
>>>> efficient as they can be (depending on the quirk),
>>>> but that they are still effective enough.

>>>> When you look at film of good rowers to help teach your charges,   use
>>>> the film to help them build a picture in their heads for what ideal
>>>> rowing will look like instead of "row like him or her".

>>>> In a good crew, there will be enough examples of excellent rowing you
>>>> can pick and choose, and yes there are some rowers that row very close
>>>> to ideal.

>>> You start your response to the question with the well known story about
>>> elite rowing not necessarily being the most technical rowing and being
>>> full of inefficient moves.

>> It's a well known story because there's mountains of
>> evidence for it.

>> The well known response to this well-known story is that
>> if XXX is doing it it must be at least equally efficient,
>> or if XXX is winning, therefore everything they do must
>> be more efficient than YYY who is not winning.

>>> However, I wonder whether this really is an inefficient move. Using the

>> false choice, efficient vs inefficient.   One may be very slightly
>> more
>> efficient or they may be the same.

>>> inside hand to feather is the common thing to do but isn't this much
>>> more based on common practice than strong evidence based theory (as most
>>> things in rowing)?

>> I wondered at it for a long time, for the same
>> reasons,  watching many elite crews where more
>> than a few rowers will allow their outside wrist
>> to break, or actively help feather.   Saw this for
>> 40 years of watching rowing,  and some very
>> fast crews.   Murray and Bond have slightly different
>> finishes!

>>    My conclusion(so far) is that by keeping the outside wrist
>> somewhat level to the finish you are able to bring the handle
>> slightly closer to your body.

>> Is it significant?  Probably not much, I certainly wouldn't try
>> to quantify it.

>> Is there a gain with outside hand feathering that offsets this?

>> I don't think so,  inside hand doesn't need help for that,
>> what the inside hand needs help with is*** on to an
>> oar handle,  it is a normal thing for many rowers to dominate
>> the oar with the inside hand (yes because it feathers),  but
>> I've noticed rowers with outside hand assist aren't any
>> better at outside hand catch help than "classically"
>> trained hands.

>>> I believe that an elite rower is able to assist feathering with the
>>> outside hand very efficiently and that it becomes such a quick move that
>>> it does not disturb a strong finish any more than an outside hand that
>>> has no movement in the wrist.
>>> It is probably mostly for novice rowers to think about that outside
>>> wrist because they take much more time in the recovery, apply more force
>>> (less smoothly) in this movement, have less well developed and adjusted
>>> strength in the wrists and do not have highly developed coordination of
>>> wrist position during the drive (turning the wrist may lead to wrong
>>> position during the drive because wrong placement at the catch).

>> brand new sweep rowers very naturally will feather
>> with both hands if not taught otherwise, just like they
>> will very naturally tend to lean away from their rigger
>> to extract the oar.

>>> Something that I believe is good for sure is a change in pressure on the
>>> fingers. During the end of the drive the angle between handle and
>>> underarm changes. It becomes inevitable that the wrist becomes curved
>>> (view from above) if one would keep firm contact with the handle. Some
>>> rowers may benefit from turning the hand to reduce a twist in the wrist
>>> (viewed from above).

>> Do you mean the lateral curve of the outside hand?

>>> I could not find good videos with top view like last Olympics but this
>>> cox view also gives a good view of the wrist position during the
>>> finish.http://SportToday.org/

>> I'm combining your other response on this post, if you don't mind.

>> <Tinus>Also interesting in the latest rowing biomechanics newsletter:

>> "The model works in sweep rowing as well (Fig.2),
>> but upper arms usually have different angles: the _inside_
>> arm has a more vertical position (elbow lower),
>> because it produces a _higher_ force at the finish."
>> </Tinus>

>> I didn't read the newsletter, but this statement by itself
>> doesn't make sense to me.

>> inside hand produces a higher force because the
>> rower applies a higher force.

> With the well know story I meant that this discussion was following a
> typical RSR storyline. Someone wonders about a certain aspect in elite
> rowing and how it is different from what novice rowers are commonly
> learned. Then people respond with such comments that elite rowing is not
> always perfect and just because it is the fastest way does not mean it
> is the best way.

> I wanted to halt this typical discussion and really look at the wrist
> action and try to reinvent the best; Not using the dogmatic believe that
> the outside wrist should remain flat and not using the common RSR story
> that elite rowers are not always good examples. People have always been
> learned to use the inside wrist for feathering but none is learned why
> you should not use the outside wrist. You use arguments like the inside
> wrist does not need help but you don't use arguments why it is bad if it
> gets help.

> For a brief moment the outside arm is doing no work. See for instance
> this image:

> http://SportToday.org/

> In that particular image the outside wrist remains flat but there is no
> strong reason why it should remain flat. In the next image you see a
> slightly more bended wrists.

> http://SportToday.org/

But is the oar even loaded there?  I think hardly at all.  It can't be
heavily loaded if the hands can move no further to the bow, unless the
oar is heavily flexed, & even then it would be a holding, not a working
position & holding, transiently, is easier than pulling the same load.

Cheers -
Carl

--
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