"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Henry La » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 02:17:41


So I trained; and got fit.   And behold, I *was* slower!

When I returned to rowing last autumn I'd been going to the gym for
almost a year.  A bit of cross-training and some resistance machines,
but mostly the ergo.  Doubtless with execrable style I'd been
thrashing through 2K pieces three or four times a week, and by degrees
managed to crank my PB down through 7:30 and 7:20 to an all-time best
of 7:12 last November some time.  

Then I took advice from the novices' coach at the club, and read some
things, and started to get scientific.  Longer, slower pieces: 2 X
20m, 40m, 3 X 12m and so on.  I got a pulse meter at Christmas and
became acquainted with UT2 and UT1 and made a reasonable estimate of
my own MHR.   I did some AT pieces (3 X 6, 2 X 8) as the winter went
on.  The head-race season came and I made the crew; I managed to stay
the course through HORR and one or two other long ones - we had some
success too - "Not bad for a fifty-year-old", I thought.

Now the regatta season is upon us and I'm trying to train
appropriately.  I'm back to 2K pieces and with better style.  But it's
a massive effort -- eyeballs bulging, chest heaving, incandescent leg
muscles, 98-100% of my MHR -- to get below 7:30!   Aaagh!  All that
work for what looks like deterioration!   And it feels like that on
the water too (though I don't tell the other guys ...)

Did I do something wrong?   Is there something I should be doing now
to put things right?   It's really discouraging, and since I'm not
good at pain I'm looking at the prospect of racing with more than a
little dread -- almost as much dread as the prospect of being left out
of the crew!

--
Henry Law               <><        I'm henry (at) thelaws.demon.co.uk
Manchester, England    

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Tim Grang » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 03:22:20



Quote:
>When I returned to rowing last autumn I'd been going to the gym for
>almost a year.  A bit of cross-training and some resistance machines,
>but mostly the ergo.  Doubtless with execrable style I'd been
>thrashing through 2K pieces three or four times a week, and by degrees
>managed to crank my PB down through 7:30 and 7:20 to an all-time best
>of 7:12 last November some time.  

>Then I took advice from the novices' coach at the club, and read some
>things, and started to get scientific.  Longer, slower pieces: 2 X
>20m, 40m, 3 X 12m and so on.  I got a pulse meter at Christmas and
>became acquainted with UT2 and UT1 and made a reasonable estimate of
>my own MHR.   I did some AT pieces (3 X 6, 2 X 8) as the winter went
>on.  The head-race season came and I made the crew; I managed to stay
>the course through HORR and one or two other long ones - we had some
>success too - "Not bad for a fifty-year-old", I thought.

>Now the regatta season is upon us and I'm trying to train
>appropriately.  I'm back to 2K pieces and with better style.  But it's
>a massive effort -- eyeballs bulging, chest heaving, incandescent leg
>muscles, 98-100% of my MHR -- to get below 7:30!   Aaagh!  All that
>work for what looks like deterioration!   And it feels like that on
>the water too (though I don't tell the other guys ...)

I think the answer might be that the body basically gets good at what
you do.  So right now, you're a lot better at the longer distance stuff,
but not as used to flat out 2km pace as you were, hense the slower
times.

It's not all bad though, since I bet that once you aclimatise your
body for 2km pieces again, you'll get down to (and probably past)
your pb score.  The long distance training means that you probably
have more capability for the top end fitness, it's just those gears
need a bit a polishing.

Tim

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Tony Curra » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:38:53

Henry,

You got another year older...

Tony
Ottawa RC


Quote:
> So I trained; and got fit.   And behold, I *was* slower!

> When I returned to rowing last autumn I'd been going to the gym for
> almost a year.  A bit of cross-training and some resistance machines,
> but mostly the ergo.  Doubtless with execrable style I'd been
> thrashing through 2K pieces three or four times a week, and by degrees
> managed to crank my PB down through 7:30 and 7:20 to an all-time best
> of 7:12 last November some time.

> Then I took advice from the novices' coach at the club, and read some
> things, and started to get scientific.  Longer, slower pieces: 2 X
> 20m, 40m, 3 X 12m and so on.  I got a pulse meter at Christmas and
> became acquainted with UT2 and UT1 and made a reasonable estimate of
> my own MHR.   I did some AT pieces (3 X 6, 2 X 8) as the winter went
> on.  The head-race season came and I made the crew; I managed to stay
> the course through HORR and one or two other long ones - we had some
> success too - "Not bad for a fifty-year-old", I thought.

> Now the regatta season is upon us and I'm trying to train
> appropriately.  I'm back to 2K pieces and with better style.  But it's
> a massive effort -- eyeballs bulging, chest heaving, incandescent leg
> muscles, 98-100% of my MHR -- to get below 7:30!   Aaagh!  All that
> work for what looks like deterioration!   And it feels like that on
> the water too (though I don't tell the other guys ...)

> Did I do something wrong?   Is there something I should be doing now
> to put things right?   It's really discouraging, and since I'm not
> good at pain I'm looking at the prospect of racing with more than a
> little dread -- almost as much dread as the prospect of being left out
> of the crew!

> --
> Henry Law               <><        I'm henry (at) thelaws.demon.co.uk
> Manchester, England


 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Mike De.Petr » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:00:18


(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
 s> Did I do something wrong?   Is there something I should be doing now
 s> to put things right?   It's really discouraging, and since I'm not
 s> good at pain I'm looking at the prospect of racing with more than a
 s> little dread -- almost as much dread as the prospect of being left out
 s> of the crew!

Yes you did something wrong. You trained on the erg. And you trained for long
pieces on the erg, this is ok only in winter, until say February, depends on
when season starts.

Gains you've got on erg times come from you adapting to the erg, not better
shape, and that is something you loose when train in the boat again, this is
why you go down from 7:30 to 7:10 and then go back. But the worst fact is
that this "erg shape" you get is actually stopping the boat.

Even after saying this, it's not all that negative, it's a bit late but
rething to what will be your rakes, 2K ? Ok, you can't think to train and
test over 20' or 8' for a 6' race. Train much more in higher zones and do not
forget technique, erg and cardiometer can make you forget style and boat
feeling. Put in 5' to 10' intervals at rates over 30spm. Do long workouts at
over 24spm, after you get the shape put in some quicker stuff at race pace,
1500m first and then when races are close go down to 1000m, 500m, 250m.

IF you really have a good endurance background you will be able to gain a lot
of seconds in little time, but remember, you will not last for a long period
on that shape, after main races take again an endurace recall with longer
sessions.


--
Un rimbambit e' l'ottava parte di un rimbambyte.
http://www.triton.studver.uu.nl/rsr/ _*#RSR# Faces*_
http://www.interware.it/users/mike/rowing.html
http://www.triesterivista.it/
*************** _*#Webmaster# TrieSteRivista*_ ***************
*************** _*#Coordinatore#  TRieSTeNet*_ ***************
*************** _*#Moderatore#     ATARI.ITA*_ ***************

--

Atarian ST -TS! 2:333/608(FidoNet) bbsgate.interware.it

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Cas Rekers ROWPERFECT B » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:42:57


Quote:

> (2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :

Snip

Quote:
> Yes you did something wrong. You trained on the erg. And you trained for
long
> pieces on the erg, this is ok only in winter, until say February, depends
on
> when season starts.

> Gains you've got on erg times come from you adapting to the erg, not
better
> shape, and that is something you loose when train in the boat again, this
is
> why you go down from 7:30 to 7:10 and then go back. But the worst fact is
> that this "erg shape" you get is actually stopping the boat.

Snip

I fully agree with the above;  If, in stead of training on a "stationary
erg", you would have trained on a dynamic rowing simulator such as the
Rowperfect, you would not have had this adaption problem, and in stead of
worsening your technique for the boat you could have improved your technique
at the same time.  Frans Goebel ,Peter Haining, and Sam ***, with a total
of 6 World championship titles lightweight single scull  between them will
gladly acknowledge this.For more information about the "how and why" go to
www.rowperfect.com.
Take Care Row Perfect(ly)
Cas Rekers.

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Neil Wallac » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:11:41



Quote:




> > (2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
> Snip

> > Yes you did something wrong. You trained on the erg. And you trained for
> long
> > pieces on the erg, this is ok only in winter, until say February,
depends
> on
> > when season starts.

> > Gains you've got on erg times come from you adapting to the erg, not
> better
> > shape, and that is something you loose when train in the boat again,
this
> is
> > why you go down from 7:30 to 7:10 and then go back. But the worst fact
is
> > that this "erg shape" you get is actually stopping the boat.

> Snip


> I fully agree with the above;  If, in stead of training on a "stationary
> erg", you would have trained on a dynamic rowing simulator such as the
> Rowperfect, you would not have had this adaption problem, and in stead of
> worsening your technique for the boat you could have improved your
technique
> at the same time.  Frans Goebel ,Peter Haining, and Sam ***, with a
total
> of 6 World championship titles lightweight single scull  between them will
> gladly acknowledge this.For more information about the "how and why" go to
> www.rowperfect.com.
> Take Care Row Perfect(ly)
> Cas Rekers.

Mike and Cas,

You both make very good points, but not relevant to Henry if I am reading it
correctly.

Henry was talking specifically about his C2 times being worse now than
before following his scientific approach to training. Indeed one sentence is
"And it feels like that on the water too (though I don't tell the other guys
...)"

So I don't think this is a C2 versus boat problem......

It is important IMO that periodic progress testing when training on any piec
e of equipment is essential (especially if experimenting with a new
program). That way Henry would maybe have discovered sooner that the
training was not optimal.

by the way Henry, I have read the less training sessions you do, the harder
those sessions must be (common sense?). Is this why the UT1/UT2 regimes of
professional athletes give minimal benefit to club-level rowers?

Neil .

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Mike De.Petr » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:45:16


(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
 rg> You both make very good points, but not relevant to Henry if I am
 rg> reading it correctly.
 rg>
 rg> Henry was talking specifically about his C2 times being worse now than
 rg> before following his scientific approach to training. Indeed one
 rg> sentence is "And it feels like that on the water too (though I don't
 rg> tell the other guys ...)"
 rg>
 rg> So I don't think this is a C2 versus boat problem......
..

I didn't say this, please reread my message, summary: I supposed he was not
getting more fit but bettering erg times due to style adaptation and this
explains fluctuations when going back to boat. Then I suggested shorter
intervals training with a progressive programmed schedule.


--
AMIGA - A Merely Insignificant Game ***ion
http://SportToday.org/*#RSR# Faces*_
http://SportToday.org/
http://SportToday.org/
*************** _*#Webmaster# TrieSteRivista*_ ***************
*************** _*#Coordinatore#  TRieSTeNet*_ ***************
*************** _*#Moderatore#     ATARI.ITA*_ ***************

--

Atarian ST -TS! 2:333/608(FidoNet) bbsgate.interware.it

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by j bront » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:13:27

Quote:
> > why you go down from 7:30 to 7:10 and then go back. But the worst fact is
> > that this "erg shape" you get is actually stopping the boat.

> I fully agree with the above;  If, in stead of training on a "stationary
> erg", you would have trained on a dynamic rowing simulator such as the
> Rowperfect, you would not have had this adaption problem, and in stead of
> worsening your technique for the boat you could have improved your technique
> at the same time.  Frans Goebel ,Peter Haining, and Sam ***, with a total
> of 6 World championship titles lightweight single scull  between them will
> gladly acknowledge this.For more information about the "how and why" go to
> www.rowperfect.com.
> Take Care Row Perfect(ly)
> Cas Rekers.

Come on, this is almost advertising.  There are certainly a lot of
Olympic Champions who trained on C2 ergs without too much trouble.
I've tried the Rowperfect before and I honestly didn't think it was
that different from the stationary erg.  The motion is essentially the
same and as different from rowing as anything else is.  Same with the
water rower.  As long as your erg technique is 'reasonable' it seems
to me that it doesn't make a difference what kind of erg you use.
Training is the most important thing, and nothing beats actually
rowing.
Peter Haining may disagree with me, but the last time I was World
Champion, he was second.
Ben :p
jbrontey(a)yahoo.com
 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Rob Colling » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:36:46


Quote:
> > > why you go down from 7:30 to 7:10 and then go back. But the worst fact
is
> > > that this "erg shape" you get is actually stopping the boat.

> > I fully agree with the above;  If, in stead of training on a "stationary
> > erg", you would have trained on a dynamic rowing simulator such as the
> > Rowperfect, you would not have had this adaption problem, and in stead
of
> > worsening your technique for the boat you could have improved your
technique
> > at the same time.  Frans Goebel ,Peter Haining, and Sam ***, with a
total
> > of 6 World championship titles lightweight single scull  between them
will
> > gladly acknowledge this.For more information about the "how and why" go
to
> > www.rowperfect.com.
> > Take Care Row Perfect(ly)
> > Cas Rekers.

> Come on, this is almost advertising.

Cas does make the rowperfect link quite clear - its not kept hidden.

Quote:
>  There are certainly a lot of
> Olympic Champions who trained on C2 ergs without too much trouble.
> I've tried the Rowperfect before and I honestly didn't think it was
> that different from the stationary erg.  The motion is essentially the
> same and as different from rowing as anything else is.  Same with the
> water rower.

I'd disagree. a Rowperfect is *closer* to being in a boat. I've seen
"reasonable" rowers with reasonable erg times. But they seem to struggle
using a rowperfect. When they got the hang of it, they got better in the
boat. IMVHO just sitting and trying to match the power curve can be one of
the most useful things to do on land.

I've had problems with C2's that stem from a weak back and slack shock cords
(in gyms). Subconsciously, I think I start to bend my arms at the catch to
try to protect my back against a jerk. Makes no difference on the erg, but
having perfected bent arm catches over Easter (ok, so they were never great
anyway) I've now transferred that to the boat. On a Rowperfect, there is no
give, so no bent arms. Jsut one example, but one that I've got experience
of. I'm not trying to say that you can't row well on a C2/WR, just that *I*
find it harder.

C2's on slide are pretty good too. I find them a lot different to rowing a
fixed erg. Especially if you get on in a crew. It makes coaching timing and
basic technique easier too. Bascially, it combines some of the benefits of
being in a boat and some of being on an erg. Along with some of the
drawbacks too. When you get back on a fixed erg after, I always find that
the rating and power fly up!

Quote:
> Training is the most important thing, and nothing beats actually
> rowing.

Yep. Ergs aren't as fun either! (especially in summer ;-) )

Rob.

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 01:52:50

Quote:

> Peter Haining may disagree with me, but the
> last time I was World Champion, he was second.
> Ben :p

Ah yes.

"After about three-and-a-half minutes without a race call, Ben started
screaming to empty the tank. We started pulling harder and counting strokes
to the line. He***ed his head left towards the British crew, and screamed
out the name of their arrogant bowman.

(Haining, a three-time World Champion in the lightweight singles, had been
baiting us all week; waving to the crowd as they were passing the finish
line ahead of us in our heat, boasting to the British press how they'd win
the final, attempting not-so-subtle head games during pre-race weigh-ins.
This was a little payback.)"

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by felip » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:41:25

LOL!
Quote:


> > Peter Haining may disagree with me, but the
> > last time I was World Champion, he was second.
> > Ben :p

> Ah yes.

> "After about three-and-a-half minutes without a race call, Ben started
> screaming to empty the tank. We started pulling harder and counting strokes
> to the line. He***ed his head left towards the British crew, and screamed
> out the name of their arrogant bowman.

> (Haining, a three-time World Champion in the lightweight singles, had been
> baiting us all week; waving to the crowd as they were passing the finish
> line ahead of us in our heat, boasting to the British press how they'd win
> the final, attempting not-so-subtle head games during pre-race weigh-ins.
> This was a little payback.)"

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by j bront » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:47:31

Quote:


> > Peter Haining may disagree with me, but the
> > last time I was World Champion, he was second.
> > Ben :p

> Ah yes.

> "After about three-and-a-half minutes without a race call, Ben started
> screaming to empty the tank. We started pulling harder and counting strokes
> to the line. He***ed his head left towards the British crew, and screamed
> out the name of their arrogant bowman.

> (Haining, a three-time World Champion in the lightweight singles, had been
> baiting us all week; waving to the crowd as they were passing the finish
> line ahead of us in our heat, boasting to the British press how they'd win
> the final, attempting not-so-subtle head games during pre-race weigh-ins.
> This was a little payback.)"

Ah yes, indeed.
These are the words of Ed Winchester (now at the IRN).  Peter actually
gave us a pre-race talk back in 1996 before the World Championships in
Strathclyde so we new him reasonably well.  I've never really been a
big believer in racing to beat someone or gaining some kind of
psychological edge in a rowing race(after all, lactic acid is the real
enemy), but Peter stirred the wrong pot that week.  He and Nick
Strange were up with a boat clear open water 600m into it and I was
sure at that point in the race that they would win and we were in a
fight for 2nd or 3rd--they were in the lane beside us and I couldn't
see them even when I turned.  Evidently they paid the price to the
great lactic enemy for their indulgence because it was only a couple
of minutes later--with 500 to go or so--that I cought a glimpse again
of the stern of their boat.  With the Dutch, Danes and Italians
comfortably back, it suddenly occured to me that Haining really had
been a bit of an ass all week.  44 was the lowest rate Ed saw in the
last 30 strokes and the last five were as sweet as rowing ever gets.
Ben
jbrontey(a)yahoo.com
*for some interesting reading there are a bunch of Ed's rowing
articles at:
http://SportToday.org/
 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Kevin Bu » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:26:32

Quote:


> > Peter Haining may disagree with me, but the
> > last time I was World Champion, he was second.
> > Ben :p

> Ah yes.

> "After about three-and-a-half minutes without a race call, Ben started
> screaming to empty the tank. We started pulling harder and counting strokes
> to the line. He***ed his head left towards the British crew, and screamed
> out the name of their arrogant bowman."

I've always wondered why Ben's posts don't carry the same weight and
awe that those of Adam or Xeno.

Glad to see that at least one non Canuck recognises who he is and what
he's achieved...

Kevin

 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:45:32

Quote:

> I've always wondered why Ben's posts don't carry
> the same weight and awe that those of Adam or Xeno.

Might have something to do with him posting under an alias.

Quote:
> Glad to see that at least one non Canuck recognises
> who he is and what he's achieved...

:) Took some searching.
 
 
 

"Train and get fit", they said; "You could be slower".

Post by j bront » Sat, 27 Apr 2002 04:48:48

Quote:
> Might have something to do with him posting under an alias.

You have to hide a bit in the Toronto Maple Leafs NG or they hound
you!
If your curious, jasmine brontey is an anagram.  

Ewoud, you might want to consider the alias: Reworked Donut :)

*********
On the Rowperfect (the original thread) I just find name-dropping
testimonials irritating, perhaps particularly P.Haining's.   I suppose
you have to trust someone's opinion at somepoint (and why not a three
time World Champion and an incredible athlete) but you don't see much
legitimate indifferent feedback about commercial products.  I suppose
that's the nature of the beast, or maybe it's too boring.  You also
don't see testimonials from the guy who trained with such-and-such
equipment and finished last.  I mean, there are more B finalists in
Empachers than there are Gold medalists.
Sorry, It was wrong to accuse Cas of anything underhanded as his
opinion is certainly fair.  I just found that the Rowperfect didn't
feel much closer to the real feeling at the catch that I thought it
would really make much of a difference.   Same with the sliders on the
CII.  Or even the model B and model C ergs.  They all feel different
in subtle ways, but I think that it's fair to say that the
benefits/drawbacks are hyped.   Peter probably would have won those
Gold Medals training on the model A as sure as we still would have
nipped him if we'd been using Rowperfects.
Ben Storey
jbrontey(a)yahoo.com