Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Liz » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:28:12


Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
about 7 years ago.

I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
& safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by mprusco » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:42:52

Quote:

> Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
> when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
> procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
> about 7 years ago.

What method are they talking about?

Quote:
> I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

As far as I'm concerned they're all different degrees of the same method
- reverse feather slightly to get the blade buried and then lift the
handle to get more loom in the water if more braking is needed.

The other method - trying to push the part-squared blade down onto the
water is just ineffective, and doesn't allow you to swing the boat
around by holding up on one side.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by martin.. » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:57:39

Quote:

> > I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> > & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> > hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

I'm no coach but I was taught to sit at backstops put the blade on the
water and turn the inside wrist so that the bottom of the spoon acts as
a brake

Taking the run off - turn the spoon gently

Hold it up - squaring quickly to take the boat speed off

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Phil » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 00:58:25

Quote:

> Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
> when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
> procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
> about 7 years ago.

> I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

I did the IA at about the same time as you - both methods were
described, but the favoured one was the
'reverse-feather-under-the-water' while at speed, finally rotating the
blade to the backing down position at/near stop.

I think it takes quite a bit more skill to achieve this method,
although the stopping of a big boat seems faster. Either way works just
as quickly in my scull for me.

Cheers,

Phil.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Liz » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:48:23

Quote:

> I did the IA at about the same time as you - both methods were
> described, but the favoured one was the
> 'reverse-feather-under-the-water' while at speed, finally rotating the
> blade to the backing down position at/near stop.

> I think it takes quite a bit more skill to achieve this method,
> although the stopping of a big boat seems faster. Either way works just
> as quickly in my scull for me.

> Cheers,

> Phil.

Actually the IA might have been about 9 years ago & I don't remember it
being part of the course.
Years back when I learnt to row I was taught the place blade flat on
water and gradually square while keeping downward pressure on blade (ie
lifting handle slightly), now I see people trying to instantly
back-feather and running the risk of crabbing and injury, only to find
out that this is apparently what was taught in recent IAs (or a variant
thereof).
Can someone (Caroline?) enlighten me as to what is being taught now and
whether the concensus is that it is safe and effective regardless of
skill level of the rowers.....
 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by brianchap.. » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 01:52:03

I was taught to 'hold it hard' , using the back of the blade as a break
against the forward motion of the boat. hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off
suggests a little less emergency action is required. The urgency of the
need to stop the boat would determine which method was used. Based on
the general inability of a small minority of coaches, coxes and crews
to keep on the right side of the water and see any other crew on the
water I would suggest the 'hold it hard' method needs to be taught and
practiced.
Quote:


> > Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
> > when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
> > procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
> > about 7 years ago.

> > I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> > & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> > hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

> I did the IA at about the same time as you - both methods were
> described, but the favoured one was the
> 'reverse-feather-under-the-water' while at speed, finally rotating the
> blade to the backing down position at/near stop.

> I think it takes quite a bit more skill to achieve this method,
> although the stopping of a big boat seems faster. Either way works just
> as quickly in my scull for me.

> Cheers,

> Phil.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Mike Sulliva » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:03:42


Quote:

>> Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
>> when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
>> procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
>> about 7 years ago.

> What method are they talking about?

>> I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
>> & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
>> hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

> As far as I'm concerned they're all different degrees of the same method -
> reverse feather slightly to get the blade buried and then lift the handle
> to get more loom in the water if more braking is needed.

here here!!   However, no need to lift handle more, just feather blade
a little more, increase hold pressure by increasing blade pitch!

When you stop dead you are in backing position.

Quote:

> The other method - trying to push the part-squared blade down onto the
> water is just ineffective, and doesn't allow you to swing the boat around
> by holding up on one side.

It's wrong, period.
 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Mike Sulliva » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:06:39


Quote:


>> I did the IA at about the same time as you - both methods were
>> described, but the favoured one was the
>> 'reverse-feather-under-the-water' while at speed, finally rotating the
>> blade to the backing down position at/near stop.

snip

Quote:
> Can someone (Caroline?) enlighten me as to what is being taught now and
> whether the concensus is that it is safe and effective regardless of
> skill level of the rowers.....

I teach proper holding to brand new beginning scullers
by their 3rd or 4th time on the water so they learn proper
boat handling well before they learn to make the boats go
an any sort of speed.

However, here in states, it hardly ever gets taught.   I guess
college coaches expect rowers to pick that up by osmosis
(where they generally just push the blade backwards)
or they figure they'll buy a new boat after they crash
theirs.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Edd » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:45:48

Quote:



<snip>
> > The other method - trying to push the part-squared blade down onto the
> > water is just ineffective, and doesn't allow you to swing the boat around
> > by holding up on one side.
> It's wrong, period.

I was taught the 'wrong' method first. I can to some extent see why,
as I think it's easier not to***up, but I'm glad someone knocked
it out of me fairly quickly. Took me ages to knock it out of some
other people I rowed with though.

I always go for teaching it right first now.

--
Edd

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Carl » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 03:11:27

Quote:

> Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
> when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
> procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
> about 7 years ago.

> I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

This, unfortunately, is another of those issues in which alternatives
are taught which are less than best :(

The alternatives in common use are:
1. Rotate the blade partly onto the square & skid it along the water.
This is the least effective, so cannot constitute an emergency stop or
"hold it hard".

2. Rotate the blade face square towards the bow & stick it in.
This is dangerous.  It can cause a crab, instability due to
incomplete/unequal rotation, or human ejection as the forces come on
fiercely.

3. Rotate the blade just enough towards the bow, a few degrees, to cause
it to move downwards into the water.
This does require practice, but is extremely effective & pretty safe -
far safer than failing to stop in time.  Do _not_ force the blade down.
  Let it descend freely to cover ~1/2 of the shaft, controlling depth by
slight adjustments to the rotation.  The way comes off so rapidly that
there's no risk of the blade going over-deep, & the force you must
resist for the same rate of deceleration is less than for the other
methods because the centre of drag is well up the shaft & much closer to
the pin.  Similarly, the turning moment on the boat is much less if
anyone in a crew fails to hold-up properly so stopping in a straight
line is easier.

Method 3 is the only method which should be taught - the KISS principle
being crucial to safety - but it needs to be taught well.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK

URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by kour » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:16:49

There are some interesting responses to this question.  After reading
Carl's explanation, the reasoning for the preferred method (Carl's item
3, rotating the blade slightly towards a backing position, letting the
blade take its depth naturally) makes sense to me from strictly a
coaching standpoint.

Looking at it from a kinesthetic perspective leads me to some doubts.
The command to immediately stop a boat ostensibly comes suddenly, and
often in an atmosphere of panic and surprise.  In such situations the
basic, most practiced motor programs of individuals typically
previal--think of these motor programs as relfex actions.  In this
context I can easily see where the method of squaring the blade with a
normal squaring motor program, which is by far more practiced and
ingrained in the rower, would produce an acceptable result.  Bear with
me, I'm trying to justify why so many people in North America teach
this method.

Also worth considering is the design of the boat, and specifically the
rigging, for accepting loads contrary to the rowing motion.  If the
sudden stop of the boat places stress on the rigger or pin contrary to
its normal designed loading, does this discount the effectiveness of
that method?  Would one rather have that load borne by the boat or the
athlete, or a mix of both?  Looking at the preferred method (Carl's
item 3), I wonder about the increased load at the pin.  But if Carl's
method 1 is employed (much like it is at my club), most of the load is
borne directly by the athlete--perhaps not the best outcome in an
emergency situation.

I'll have to practice this myself, but in the meantime I should ask: in
method 3, where does the handle typically travel?  Higher, towards the
head during the stopping motion?  What if method 3 is not deftly
executed, or employed by an unpracticed rower, in a sudden stop
situation, yet the blade goes too deep, perhaps traveling too quickly
towards the head... you can see where I'm going with this.  I joke
about the handle becoming "the 'ol tooth chipper" if one digs the face
of the blade too deep with inertia on the boat, but does one method
make this more likely than another?  Avoidance of all injury, to person
or boat, is best, but which one would you prefer over another--injured
athlete or injured boat (some should not answer that question).  In
arguing for method 1, the simple squaring motion keeps the oar at the
ready above water and employs the simplest teaching methods.  Gee, I
hope I'm not stereotyping the learning curve of some North Americans
(even if they are rowers) with this analysis (the author is born and
raised in North America).

I'm going to give method 3 a good try on my boats this week and see how
it works out.  My club has always used method 1 with success.  To say
that method 3 is the only method which should be taught is akin to
saying, "never say never" and I hope at least some see the rationale
for method 1 I have tried to convey in the explanations above.

kourt

Quote:


> > Can those who did the IA more recently than I give any indication as to
> > when the prescribed method for holding up a boat became the recommended
> > procedure. I swear it wasn't part of the IA that I did, but that was
> > about 7 years ago.

> > I'd also be interested in whether other coaches think this is the best
> > & safest method of stopping a boat quickly and whether a standard
> > hold-it-up/ take-the-run-off should be different from a hold-it-hard.

> This, unfortunately, is another of those issues in which alternatives
> are taught which are less than best :(

> The alternatives in common use are:
> 1. Rotate the blade partly onto the square & skid it along the water.
> This is the least effective, so cannot constitute an emergency stop or
> "hold it hard".

> 2. Rotate the blade face square towards the bow & stick it in.
> This is dangerous.  It can cause a crab, instability due to
> incomplete/unequal rotation, or human ejection as the forces come on
> fiercely.

> 3. Rotate the blade just enough towards the bow, a few degrees, to cause
> it to move downwards into the water.
> This does require practice, but is extremely effective & pretty safe -
> far safer than failing to stop in time.  Do _not_ force the blade down.
>   Let it descend freely to cover ~1/2 of the shaft, controlling depth by
> slight adjustments to the rotation.  The way comes off so rapidly that
> there's no risk of the blade going over-deep, & the force you must
> resist for the same rate of deceleration is less than for the other
> methods because the centre of drag is well up the shaft & much closer to
> the pin.  Similarly, the turning moment on the boat is much less if
> anyone in a crew fails to hold-up properly so stopping in a straight
> line is easier.

> Method 3 is the only method which should be taught - the KISS principle
> being crucial to safety - but it needs to be taught well.

> Cheers -
> Carl

> --
> Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
>      Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
> Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK

> URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Rob Colling » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:31:50

Quote:

> In this
> context I can easily see where the method of squaring the blade with a
> normal squaring motor program, which is by far more practiced and
> ingrained in the rower, would produce an acceptable result.  Bear with
> me, I'm trying to justify why so many people in North America teach
> this method.

I think that's grasping at straws - If one motion is taught as the way
to stop a boat then it should become natural very quickly. If I'm
getting close to crashing I sometimes find my oars have buried
themselves before I work out what I'm doing...

Quote:
> If the
> sudden stop of the boat places stress on the rigger or pin contrary to
> its normal designed loading, does this discount the effectiveness of
> that method?

If your riggers or boat can't withstand an emergency stop, I'd suggest
returning them as not fit for purpose. You'd hardly consider it
satisfactory if the wheels fell off your car when you had to do an
emergency stop, or if the brake cable on your bike snapped under heavy
breaking. Rowers stop, and sometimes in a hurry so the equipment has to
cope with that. Besides, the forces act in the same direction no matter
your stopping method. If they were the other way round then you'd be
accelerating.. The only difference is the size of those forces and
method three allows for a much greater braking force if needed. It also
allows for a small braking force if needed too.

Quote:
> I'm going to give method 3 a good try on my boats this week and see how
> it works out.  My club has always used method 1 with success.

Method 1 works in so far as it will stop your boat eventually. Method 3
stops the boat a lot faster and with a lot more control (both of which
are important IMHO). The only thing method 1 seems to do well is throw
up loads of water and look impressive. It won't look as impressive if
you lose your bow though!

There was a cox out here the other night who I heard call "shit we're
crashing." But they didn't say hold/check so the crew just sat there
waiting until they bumped the bank. Oops.

Rob.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Mike Sulliva » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:38:24


Quote:

>> In this

snip

Quote:
>> sudden stop of the boat places stress on the rigger or pin contrary to
>> its normal designed loading, does this discount the effectiveness of
>> that method?

> If your riggers or boat can't withstand an emergency stop, I'd suggest
> returning them as not fit for purpose. You'd hardly consider it

George Pocock claimed that when a boat builder built a new
type single for the professional watermen, the first thing they did to
it was go full speed and stop dead.  If the boat held up correctly,
then they'd put it through other paces.    A sculler should be able
to go from full speed and stop dead in less than a length (according
to George anyway).   I honestly don't know if it's doable, I haven't
actually measured.

The idea was that if you hit an unseen object with your bow, you should
be able to weigh enough that you don't knock your skeg off as you go
over it.

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Mike Sulliva » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:33:00


Quote:
> There are some interesting responses to this question.  After reading
> Carl's explanation, the reasoning for the preferred method (Carl's item
> 3, rotating the blade slightly towards a backing position, letting the
> blade take its depth naturally) makes sense to me from strictly a
> coaching standpoint.

> Looking at it from a kinesthetic perspective leads me to some doubts.
> The command to immediately stop a boat ostensibly comes suddenly, and
> often in an atmosphere of panic and surprise.  In such situations the
> basic, most practiced motor programs of individuals typically
> previal--think of these motor programs as relfex actions.  In this

You're absolutely right, which is why the correct method
must be practiced frequently.   The incorrect method doesn't need
as much practice to do, as you simply push back against
pressure.     The problem with the incorrect method is that
it is ineffective at stopping a boat in an emergency.

When I send scullers out for their first 80 miles of sculling, they
go on  proscribed course and I ask them to hold water(properly)
 either to stop or turn the boat every time they turn around, and to
use it liberally every time you stop your boat.

I frequently encounter 'experienced' scullers who already
learned to hold water from 'their coach' who will argue with
me about it.   I simply let them know they must learn how to
do it from me first, then their choice to practice it afterward.
Then I slide in the cheapshot, it depends on whether they want
to practice becoming a sculler or someone who sits in a sculling
boat.

Yes, it does come 'naturally' after you learn it, just like good
catches, finishes, slide control, etc etc....

After novice scullers get out and do their miles, they are welcome
to track me down and get technical help from me if they are sculling
frequently by simply interupting my wednesday morning row (which
is no big deal to interrupt, I don't do that much).

Before I help them I ask them to demonstrate holding water for
me.   If they can do it excellently, I help them enthusiastically.   If not,
I ask them
what's the point of me wasting time teaching them about sculling
if they never bothered with learning the first thing I taught them?

Good question, no?

If you can't teach backing, holding water, proper boat and oar handling
on the shore, it'll be pretty hopeless to try and teach anything else.

Mike

 
 
 

Hold it Hard command & IA/Level 2 Coaching course(UK)

Post by Henry La » Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:00:41

Quote:

> 3. Rotate the blade just enough towards the bow, a few degrees, to cause
> it to move downwards into the water.

I'm amazed how few people do this.  When I tell my crew-mates how to do
it I describe it as "flying" the blade under the water; turn a little
more towards you to fly lower, away from you to come back towards the
surface.  Seems to me not only most effective but also easiest.  But
then I made model aircraft as a lad ...

--

Henry Law       <><     Manchester, England