Welsh rowing

Welsh rowing

Post by Chris » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 06:38:19


Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.

I cannot see what effect this will have.

a) an English crews which wins a 2 or 3 boat event at a Welsh event will win points anyway under rule 5-2-5c and their BROE administrators will have to ensure that they are applied.

b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Brian Chapma » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:59:25

Quote:

> Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.

> I cannot see what effect this will have.

> a) an English crews which wins a 2 or 3 boat event at a Welsh event will win points anyway under rule 5-2-5c and their BROE administrators will have to ensure that they are applied.

> b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

Chris,

To put it in perspective, how many regattas does this involve? I am not aware of any in N Wales.

Is it just the affiliated regattas, Monmouth and Llandaff?

Brian

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Phil » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:04:25


Quote:

> > Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.

> > I cannot see what effect this will have.

> > a) an English crews which wins a 2 or 3 boat event at a Welsh event will win points anyway under rule 5-2-5c and their BROE administrators will have to ensure that they are applied.

> > b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

> Chris,

> To put it in perspective, how many regattas does this involve? I am not aware of any in N Wales.

> Is it just the affiliated regattas, Monmouth and Llandaff?

> Brian

Mumbles / Cardiff Bay / Swansea / Penarth etc., (if they are still
going)

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by davies... » Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:34:48

Quote:

> Wales has a new rule this year - 4 crews have to finish for an event to be qualifying, otherwise there are no points.

> b) any Welsh crew entering an English regatta will now be subject to scrutiny under rule 5-2-3g and should be bumped up as appropriate if they have won any Welsh "non-qualifying" events.

Is that what 5-2-3g actually says? I read it as just putting the crew into the most suitable event. A Welsh point being worth more than and English point is no different from how eg US or Aussie wins are valued over here.
 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Richard du » Wed, 17 Apr 2013 01:16:48

A wind-up, surely?

or has Wales broken away from "British" Rowing?

Any son of the principality looking for points, say to hit a crew point minimum for some Championship Course Head Race, would presumably have to get his BR points tally adjusted, by negotiation with Lower Mall??? ..... or is he now a non-BR competitor?

No, must be a wind-up, I hope

Richard du P

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Richar » Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:26:03


Quote:
> A wind-up, surely?

> or has Wales broken away from "British" Rowing?

> Any son of the principality looking for points, say to hit a crew point minimum for some Championship Course Head Race, would presumably have to get his BR points tally adjusted, by negotiation with Lower Mall??? ..... or is he now a non-BR competitor?

> No, must be a wind-up, I hope

I fear not, although I haven't seen a copy of the Welsh Rules of Racing, so I have only seen this new rule advertised in an email for one of the Welsh regattas.  It would be useful if Welsh rules were published on their website (or if they are there, they need to be easier to find - they have eluded my search efforts).

Presumably crews (Welsh and non-Welsh alike) racing in Welsh regattas will now have to maintain two points counts - one for use in Wales and one for use in BR events elsewhere.  What happens to the points tally for Welsh crews winning in BR regattas outside Wales (or regattas abroad)?

To borrow a phrase from an umpiring colleague "what is the problem to which this is the solution?".  It seems to me to have introduced a heap of complications for unclear (and possibly non-existent) benefits.

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by davies... » Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:59:32

Quote:

> To borrow a phrase from an umpiring colleague "what is the problem to which this is the solution?".  It seems to me to have introduced a heap of complications for unclear (and possibly non-existent) benefits.

The small number of events and clubs means that points acquisition is disproportionally easy?
 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by JK » Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:36:39

The small number of events and clubs means that points acquisition is disproportionally easy?

Correct... and ducking for cover, Welsh rowing is a micro-environment that demonstrates the plight of the "club" rower in the UK as a whole. There are a multitude of rowers (and now "missing" rowers) who want to support local events and still win but are not that interested in racing Dorney/large regattas... so you get a "club" four that is locally rather good, goes to several small regattas and get several wins each time in straight finals... so the point system works in that they are promoted out of the way for those who kept being beaten by them.... but they have outgrown the pool, no-one else is at their level locally so they can't get any races at the races they want to do... so begrudingly go to a large regatta to get some different competition normally involving extensive travel etc.... they meet ABC University who haven't raced much as their coach wants to win the Novice Pennant at HORR but have been extensively coached and as students having nothing better to do so each have a 6:30 erg and are in the regatta to hone their starts for BUCS (insert other non-point bearing event or major event with little chance of winning)... little local crew gets beaten soundly... "helpful" comments about training harder/longer/more often ensue.....repeat several times and rowing is no longer FUN for them and they leave the sport as all they actually wanted to do was race a few regattas each summer against similar crews, win some, lose some, have a beer afterwards and a life in between!... they have been in the sport a relatively short time and have little voice to correct the situation... but this type of club rower used to be the backbone of most club's revenue (and BR memberships) and after several years probably would sit on the club committee... I can't see that much is being done to save this section, the "grassroots", of rowing, the equivalent of the Sunday kickabout in football and not all such rowers will qualify to discover the delights of Masters rowing (although hard to find oppo at most events). It's not ***, it's not likely to grow the next Olympian etc, but it did provide those that ran the local event/local club in future.... good on the Welsh for trying something (and yes I am biased)!

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by John Griffith » Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:26:23

The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.
 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Richard du » Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:25:32

Quote:

> The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

John, thank you for that clarification, and I apologise for my previous ungracious surprise. These are to be non-qualifying events, fair and square, and there will be no question of any winner, from either side of Offa's***, trying to convince the entries sec of an English competition [a particular interest of mine] that he or she should be regarded as having another point.

Richard du P

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Chris » Sat, 11 May 2013 02:36:23

Quote:

> The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear

"A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British
or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under
British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their
own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the
British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included
electronically against the competitors total."

It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh's rowing reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Peter For » Sat, 11 May 2013 03:40:37

Quote:


> > The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

> English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear

> "A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British

> or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under

> British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their

> own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the

> British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included

> electronically against the competitors total."

> It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh's rowing reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.

Are there definitions of "self-contained body" in 4-1-2 or of "association" in 5-2-5c? If not, why are eg CRA races exempt?

While we're on the subject, I discover the existence of 5-2-5b and admit that I failed to notify the NCC of my intention to race a double scull around Hamilton harbour in Bermuda...

Peter

 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by John Griffith » Sun, 12 May 2013 20:01:59

Quote:


> > The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

> English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear

> "A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British

> or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under

> British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their

> own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the

> British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included

> electronically against the competitors total."

> It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh's rowing reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.

Indeed so which is why English crews do not have to pick up points under the special conditions.
 
 
 

Welsh rowing

Post by Richard du » Tue, 14 May 2013 01:52:56

Quote:



> > > The special conditions for non-qualifying events being applied by Welsh regattas are entirely in accordance with the British Rowing rules of racing and therefore are equally valid for Welsh and English crews alike having been approved by the national competition committee. Welsh events come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Competition Committee.

[CA] > > English crews are bound by British Rowing rules which are quite clear
Quote:
> > "A win at any regatta of a different association, whether British
> > or foreign shall count for classification as for a similar win under
> > British Rowing rules. Winning competitors shall update their
> > own Racing Licences for their win, and the club shall inform the
> > British Rowing office via BROE to enable the win to be included
> > electronically against the competitors total."
> > It is also quite clear what is a non-qualifying event, and Welsh rowing's reclassification does not change rule 4-1-2 in any way.

[JG] > Indeed so which is why English crews do not have to pick up points under the special conditions.

OK John, I'll bite .....

A] English club crew wins 3-boat event in England; event not non-qualifying under "British" rules - each member of the crew picks up a point?

B] Same crew wins apparently analogous event in Belgium; event would not have been non-qualifying under "British" rules - each member of the crew should have another point, on report to Lower Mall?

C] Same crew wins apparently analogous event at a Welsh competition - should this triumph not likewise be reported to Lower Mall for points?

Discuss.

Richard du P