2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by chris harriso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 01:17:04


It is subject to change, and with what is thought to be a record entry
for the Vets Head, the draw is now available via the Vets Head website
at http://www.vrc.org.uk/vets_head/

- chris.

PS. Perhaps this is a comment on the 'silver surfers', that almost
exactly half the entries were received via the new OARA system. It
didn't work completely flawlessly (as several RSRers found out) but it
has generally done its job reasonably competently - and certainly saved
this race entries secretary an appreciable amount of time.

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Sara » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:41:02

curious about the draw in womens vet c

MAA didn't have a womens vet c crew last year, yet we're higher in the
draw that Broxbourne and Tees - both clubs had entries last year, and
although Broxbourne rowed over the course this was after the race had
been cancelled - I believe molesey and TSS were the only ones
considered to have finished? how was the draw worked out?

am just miffed as coxing a mainly novice MAA boat I'm probably going to
get over taken by Broxbourne and Tees both of which I've won this event
with in the past :-)

also interested why vet D women have been separated from Vet C - I know
that in the past few years the winners of vet D have often been faster
than Vet C and it's usually good competition between the 2 groups

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by chris harriso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:13:42

Quote:

> MAA didn't have a womens vet c crew last year, yet we're higher in the
> draw that Broxbourne and Tees - both clubs had entries last year, and
> although Broxbourne rowed over the course this was after the race had
> been cancelled - I believe molesey and TSS were the only ones
> considered to have finished? how was the draw worked out?

The boats now go off in category order; this has been a bone of
contention for many years. In the past the overall places had been used,
but this always raised a few complaints because a fast, older crew would
have the benefit of being in a faster group (the stream speed being a
tiny and relatively inconsequential additional factor). More recently
we've changed to keep categories together, we still get objections, but
they are fewer.

Within each category I've retained the ordering of last year's top ten
in that category to go off at the front of the group.

The categories themselves reflect, broadly, the general finishing
positions of the average crew in that category - not necessarily the
placings of the category winning crew.

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Jon Anderso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:23:21

Quote:

>(the stream speed being a
> tiny and relatively inconsequential additional factor)

You mean the difference in stream speed between the start and end of
racing? Not sure this makes sense otherwise. :-)

Jon
--


    [ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by chris harriso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:47:45

Quote:


>> (the stream speed being a tiny and relatively inconsequential
>> additional factor)

> You mean the difference in stream speed between the start and end of
> racing? Not sure this makes sense otherwise. :-)

Yes. Every year there is a quite tiresome discussion that the difference
in stream speed between crews with radically different start numbers has
a definite effect on the results. (With particular reference to crews in
the same category whose starting positions are different through the
recognition of the previous year's results.)

I forget the precise figures but several studies have been made and,
yes, there is a difference, but it equates to only a few seconds over
the full course, which is generally significantly less than the winning
margin ...

So, for example, had last Saturday's result seen a dead heat between
crew 1 and a new entrant up around 200 or whatever, then there might
have been a good argument for giving it to the higher numbered crew!

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:12:46

Quote:

> So, for example, had last Saturday's result seen a dead heat between
> crew 1 and a new entrant up around 200 or whatever, then there might
> have been a good argument for giving it to the higher numbered crew!

There was more current in race direction (or less against) at the start
of the race?

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2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Sara » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 22:59:11

Ewoud - the tideway heads are run on a falling tide - usually about 90
mins after the high tide turning point. the tide flows faster at the
beginning (well slow then faster as it starts to flood out) so lower
number crews starting first have more stream assitance, and the high
number crew setting off an hour later has less assistance - so if they
record the same time, the higher numbered crew was 'faster' (but then
who's to say the wind didn't pick up ... etc. etc. blah blah)

Chris - I more wondered why Broxborne and Tees didnt get considered as
'last year's entries' given they were on the water to race and through
no fault of their own were not allowed to? seems unfair to set MAA and
Barn Elms off in front of them. (esp as they're likely to have to
overtake)

Sarah

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by chris harriso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:13:17

Quote:

> Chris - I more wondered why Broxborne and Tees didnt get considered as
> 'last year's entries' given they were on the water to race and through
> no fault of their own were not allowed to? seems unfair to set MAA and
> Barn Elms off in front of them. (esp as they're likely to have to
> overtake)

Last year's results rather than last year's entries. Beyond that it's a
random draw - if you want to be relegated further back, I'm happy to
renumber you!
 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Sara » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:18:19

Chris Harrison said:
Quote:
> the general finishing positions of the average crew in that category

- not > necessarily the placings of the category winning crew.

so why is womens vet D and E well behind Vet C - the average vet D crew
(of one) in 2003 and ave vet E (of one) in 2004) is FASTER than vet C

if you look at who is the in crew then I bet you anything that 164 and
167 will be faster than most of Vet C (if not all) and Upton and
Kingston will be as fast as the average vet C. (well upton might be
slowish)

just seems to me, as if vet C D and E women should have been kept
together  (esp given the small numbers of crews (we're talking about 4
crews that could be added to a group of 13 vet B and C)

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Ewoud Dronker » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:33:30


Quote:
> Ewoud - the tideway heads are run on a falling tide - usually about
> 90 mins after the high tide turning point. the tide flows faster at
> the beginning (well slow then faster as it starts to flood out)

Here's the tide prediction for Hammersmith on race day:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast/data/20050305/0115_20050305.gif

First start was at 10.30am. Seems like 11.00 or 11.30 would have been a
tiny bit fairer. But surprisingly even conditions between 11am and 2pm!
I thought the curve would be more sine-like. How long does the start of
all crews take?

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2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by chris harriso » Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:41:57

Quote:


>>Ewoud - the tideway heads are run on a falling tide - usually about
>>90 mins after the high tide turning point. the tide flows faster at
>>the beginning (well slow then faster as it starts to flood out)

> Here's the tide prediction for Hammersmith on race day:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast/data/20050305/0115_20050305.gif

> First start was at 10.30am. Seems like 11.00 or 11.30 would have been a
> tiny bit fairer. But surprisingly even conditions between 11am and 2pm!
> I thought the curve would be more sine-like. How long does the start of
> all crews take?

The general rule of thumb is one every 10 seconds, about 6 a minute, but
generally the better crews at the top of the draw will go through
quicker than that, with the less experienced crews dragging the average
down. I would have imagined the Women's Head (with 249 starters) will
have taken about 50 minutes to clear the start line.

(The Scullers Head last year had 401 starters and first starter to last
was just under 74 minutes.)

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Henry La » Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:00:50

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:47:45 +0000, chris harrison

Quote:

>Yes. Every year there is a quite tiresome discussion that the difference
>in stream speed between crews with radically different start numbers has
>a definite effect on the results.

The Tideway is a natural product; some variation is normal.

Sheesh, have people not got something serious to talk about?

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Henry La » Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:02:31


Quote:
>so why is womens vet D and E well behind Vet C - the average vet D crew
>(of one) in 2003 and ave vet E (of one) in 2004) is FASTER than vet C

Theory: the really good "C" people are still rowing in senior boats.
When they finally get over the hill they're already into "D" and even
"E" land.
 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Jon Anderso » Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:00:15

Quote:

> The general rule of thumb is one every 10 seconds, about 6 a minute, but
> generally the better crews at the top of the draw will go through
> quicker than that, with the less experienced crews dragging the average
> down. I would have imagined the Women's Head (with 249 starters) will
> have taken about 50 minutes to clear the start line.

They wish! My crew got back to shore at 12.15pm when they were still
streaming through at Hammersmith. So given they must have taken about 15
minutes to get there (in the slowest of cases) they were still letting
boats through the start 90 minutes after the first boat had gone.

Mass spannering on a worse scale can be found at the Schools' Head where
they started 50 minutes late.

Jon
--


    [ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]

 
 
 

2005 Vets Head Draw (UK)

Post by Sarah Farquha » Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:29:08

Quote:

> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:47:45 +0000, chris harrison

>>Yes. Every year there is a quite tiresome discussion that the difference
>>in stream speed between crews with radically different start numbers has
>>a definite effect on the results.

> The Tideway is a natural product; some variation is normal.

Surely this is assuming that all crews are IN the stream at ALL times...
another element of variation...