Draw the finish hard

Draw the finish hard

Post by Charles Carrol » Wed, 13 May 2009 03:52:37


Alexander Lindsay,

I tried to reply to your post in the "Re: Near Drowning, Israel" thread, but
all I got was the following:

"Windows Mail could not post your message. Subject 'Re: Near Drowning,
Israel', Account: 'News.Individual.NET', Server: 'News.Individual.NET',
Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 4 too long', Port: 119,
Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9"

So I am going to try to start a new thread to see if I can still post to the
group.

--------------
The idea of drawing "the finish so hard that the body [is] already moving
forward at the extraction" is very intriguing to me. Indeed it has been the
only way that I have been able to row feet out, whether in a shell or on the
erg with the new CorePerform seat.

You write: "The outside shoulder and arm and oar handle can still be moving
towards the bow while the torso is beginning to move sternwards . . . The
necessary sternwards momentum to get the hands away and the CG moving is
already there at the release." You question whether this is applicable to
sculling. I think so. Or at least it has been in my experience.

What I might amend is the statement that "the torso is beginning to move
sternwards." That seems to me slightly misleading. From my observations it
is not the entire torso that moves forwards. Rather it is the upper third of
the torso, the part above the hands. This upper third moves very slightly
sternwards while the bottom two thirds still continue to move bowards.

I think of this movement as hunching the shoulders to bring the arms
perpendicular to the body. When this torso movement is done correctly it is
barely noticeable. But it is very serviceable. It will keep the feet
connected to the footstretcher, which I find gives me the stability at the
finish to row feet out. With greater stability at the finish not only can I
begin the recovery sooner and more smoothly, but I also have increased
stability at the catch. Suddenly I am reminded of my little epiphany several
months ago. The proof of a good finish is a strong, stable, confident catch.

So my observations don't support Carl on this point. Rowing feet out has
been for me a very good way to teach myself how to keep a boat stable at the
finish.

I also agree with you that "at the end of the stroke you need to give a
fairly large sternwards acceleration to the body" and that this acceleration
should come from the hands, not the feet. It should come from that initial
"torso beginning to move sternwards" at the extraction.

I did a Goggle search on Hugh Robert Arthur Edwards' "The Way of a Man With
a Blade" 1963. It looks like it ain't going to be easy to find. I have a
book search order with Amazon here on this side of the pond. Maybe I'll get
lucky.

Cordially,

Charles

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Charles Carrol » Wed, 13 May 2009 03:57:42

Quote:
> "Windows Mail could not post your message. Subject 'Re: Near Drowning,
> Israel', Account: 'News.Individual.NET', Server: 'News.Individual.NET',
> Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 4 too long', Port: 119,
> Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9"

Can anyone tell me what this means and why I couldn't reply to Alexander's
original post in the proper thread?

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Edga » Wed, 13 May 2009 04:22:03


Quote:
>> "Windows Mail could not post your message. Subject 'Re: Near Drowning,
>> Israel', Account: 'News.Individual.NET', Server: 'News.Individual.NET',
>> Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 4 too long', Port: 119,
>> Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9"

> Can anyone tell me what this means and why I couldn't reply to Alexander's
> original post in the proper thread?

Put 0x800CCCA9 into Google and you will find a whole lot of stuff about this
error message, how to fix it, discussion forum etc.

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by anthonyjones.. » Wed, 13 May 2009 04:24:35

Quote:
> The idea of drawing "the finish so hard that the body [is] already moving
> forward at the extraction" is very intriguing to me. Indeed it has been the
> only way that I have been able to row feet out, whether in a shell or on the
> erg with the new CorePerform seat.

> You write: "The outside shoulder and arm and oar handle can still be moving
> towards the bow while the torso is beginning to move sternwards . . . The
> necessary sternwards momentum to get the hands away and the CG moving is
> already there at the release."

Am I dreaming or is this phenomenon what used to be known familiarly
as a "Moriarty"? Which, I think, derives from Sherlock Holmes's escape
from the Reichenbach Falls. I retain a dim memory of this from LRC in
1971 or 1972 when much of Jumbo Edwards's lore was still fairly
current.

But I might be wrong.

AJ

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by David Biddulp » Wed, 13 May 2009 04:59:39

Quote:

>> The idea of drawing "the finish so hard that the body [is] already
>> moving forward at the extraction" is very intriguing to me. Indeed
>> it has been the only way that I have been able to row feet out,
>> whether in a shell or on the erg with the new CorePerform seat.

>> You write: "The outside shoulder and arm and oar handle can still be
>> moving towards the bow while the torso is beginning to move
>> sternwards . . . The necessary sternwards momentum to get the hands
>> away and the CG moving is already there at the release."

> Am I dreaming or is this phenomenon what used to be known familiarly
> as a "Moriarty"? Which, I think, derives from Sherlock Holmes's escape
> from the Reichenbach Falls. I retain a dim memory of this from LRC in
> 1971 or 1972 when much of Jumbo Edwards's lore was still fairly
> current.

> But I might be wrong.

> AJ

Yes.

'The Way of a Man with a Blade' pages 58 and 59.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by RoCo.. » Wed, 13 May 2009 05:13:55


Quote:
> > The idea of drawing "the finish so hard that the body [is] already moving
> > forward at the extraction" is very intriguing to me. Indeed it has been the
> > only way that I have been able to row feet out, whether in a shell or on the
> > erg with the new CorePerform seat.

> > You write: "The outside shoulder and arm and oar handle can still be moving
> > towards the bow while the torso is beginning to move sternwards . . . The
> > necessary sternwards momentum to get the hands away and the CG moving is
> > already there at the release."

> Am I dreaming or is this phenomenon what used to be known familiarly
> as a "Moriarty"? Which, I think, derives from Sherlock Holmes's escape
> from the Reichenbach Falls. I retain a dim memory of this from LRC in
> 1971 or 1972 when much of Jumbo Edwards's lore was still fairly
> current.

> But I might be wrong.

> AJ

Ah yes. The Moriarty Finish...
 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Charles Carrol » Wed, 13 May 2009 06:56:51

Quote:
> Put 0x800CCCA9 into Google and you will find a whole lot of stuff about
> this error message, how to fix it, discussion forum etc.

Edgar,

It was the first thing I did, even before posting.

I ended up changing the Message format from MIME to Uuencode. That didn't
help.

Next I changed the Automatically wrap text from 76 characters to 70. That
didn't help.

Next I checked the text in the message body for any words that might make
the message appear  to have come from a spammer. I couldn't find any words.

So in desperation I copied the text into a new message, and voila!, the
News.Individual.NET accepted it.

What was it about replying to Alexander Lindsay's post that caused
News.Individual.NET to reject the Reply?

Cordially,

Charles

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by David Biddulp » Wed, 13 May 2009 07:32:26

Quote:

>> Put 0x800CCCA9 into Google and you will find a whole lot of stuff
>> about this error message, how to fix it, discussion forum etc.

> Edgar,

> It was the first thing I did, even before posting.

> I ended up changing the Message format from MIME to Uuencode. That
> didn't help.

> Next I changed the Automatically wrap text from 76 characters to 70.
> That didn't help.

> Next I checked the text in the message body for any words that might
> make the message appear  to have come from a spammer. I couldn't find
> any words.
> So in desperation I copied the text into a new message, and voila!,
> the News.Individual.NET accepted it.

> What was it about replying to Alexander Lindsay's post that caused
> News.Individual.NET to reject the Reply?

> Cordially,

> Charles

The line to which your server was objecting was presumably the references
line in the headers of your reply to Alexander's message.
I'm not sure to which of Alexander's messages you were trying to reply, but
one of them had a reference line saying:
References:
















My guess is that the combination of your newsreading software, its settings,
and the News.Individual.NET server didn't like the result.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Alexander Lindsa » Wed, 13 May 2009 07:48:41


Quote:

>> The idea of drawing "the finish so hard that the body [is] already moving
>> forward at the extraction" is very intriguing to me. Indeed it has been
>> the
>> only way that I have been able to row feet out, whether in a shell or on
>> the
>> erg with the new CorePerform seat.

>> You write: "The outside shoulder and arm and oar handle can still be
>> moving
>> towards the bow while the torso is beginning to move sternwards . . . The
>> necessary sternwards momentum to get the hands away and the CG moving is
>> already there at the release."

> Am I dreaming or is this phenomenon what used to be known familiarly
> as a "Moriarty"? Which, I think, derives from Sherlock Holmes's escape
> from the Reichenbach Falls. I retain a dim memory of this from LRC in
> 1971 or 1972 when much of Jumbo Edwards's lore was still fairly
> current.

> But I might be wrong.

> AJ

AJ, Charles, Carl and others

Yes indeed, what I was trying to describe used to be known as the Moriarty.
Jumbo Edwards used to explain it by suggesting that at the Reichenbach
Falls, where Holmes was wrestling with Moriarty, Holmes was falling to his
death when he pulled so hard at Moriarty that the force not only projected
the evil professor into space, but also restored Holmes to safety.  The idea
was, pull hard enough and you project your body forwards. There is a really
dreadful picture to illustrate this in the book.

Maybe this theory (as a rowing technique; the mechanics are indisputable)
has been exploded or discarded in the 45 years since I last rowed seriously
and Jumbo coached us. I don't know.  But as I said elsewhere, I still do it,
I think, sort of, and, if you want to do it, rowing feet out is good
training for it. If you take a full stroke and don't get it right you fall
over backwards.

Other thoughts about it:

I find it almost impossible to do on my C2 erg (no slides).  I attribute
this to the much larger body acceleration needed on a fixed erg than in a
boat, together of course with my much reduced strength. If I row feet out on
the erg I find I unavoidably shorten the finish.

I am puzzled by Charles' remarks about only the upper third of the body
being involved.  I have never seen him so cannot comment on what he does,
but our technique, taught in the 1950s, was to have the legs straight just
before the finish, so having parts of the torso moving in opposite
directions just doesn't happen. Indeed the recovery of the body starts with
a rotation of the torso about the hip joints with the legs straight, so the
whole torso is moving sternwards.

A related idea, which again seems surprising to some of my vet colleages, is
that, to get a long finish, the upper body rotates, so that at the finish
the shoulders are parallel to the oar handle. It is that rotation that
allows the outer shoulder, arm, hand and oar handle to be still travelling
bow-wards while the CG of the torso has already changed direction.  That of
course has no application to sculling.

Of course Carl's warnings about the inability to do an emergence stop with
feet out are importanrt.  One would be unwise to have a whole crew feet out
if there is any other traffic around. And as he says, it couldn't be done
with an exaggerated lean back, LMBC style.  But surely nobody does that any
more, do they?

I get the impression that what I have been describing is no longer a well
known or much used technique.  Any one know why?  Or when the idea
disappeared?  Was it perhaps the "Jumbo is always wrong" attitude of the
blazerati of the time, who didn't notice, or did notice and resented, that
it was he who started wider blades, longer oars, interval training, low drag
riggers, and many other now standard ideas.

As for the book, I gather it is now seriously rare.  None of the second hand
book search sites I know of can find a copy, nor did that excellent little
shop in Friday Street, Henley, when I last asked.

Alexander

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by stephen.timm.. » Wed, 13 May 2009 22:52:22

This might be totally unhelpful but, "The way of a man with a blade"
is in Loughborough University library, where I read it 23 years ago
when i should have been writing my dissertation. I checked their
catalogue, and it's still listed.

It's a great read. Jumbo Edwards comes across as very innovative and
creative, but perhaps a bit bonkers. Wish I'd met him though

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Alexander Lindsa » Thu, 14 May 2009 00:34:01


Quote:
> This might be totally unhelpful but, "The way of a man with a blade"
> is in Loughborough University library, where I read it 23 years ago
> when i should have been writing my dissertation. I checked their
> catalogue, and it's still listed.

> It's a great read. Jumbo Edwards comes across as very innovative and
> creative, but perhaps a bit bonkers. Wish I'd met him though

Indeed. I would find it hard to sum him up more succinctly.  A brilliant
coach, loved by his crews, immensely well informed about the sport, a great
innovator, a stickler for correct behaviour and dress, and detested by the
Hierarchy.  Very quietly spoken and always polite.  At the same time
maddeningly self-opinionated, seriously eccentric and an ***ic.

Just to put that in perspective, in 1932 he won two Olympic gold medals in
one afternoon.

I was coached by him in 1958, 59 and 60 at Oxford and with Leander in 64. He
was certainly the best coach I rowed under, but I understand why some
couldn't get on with him.

RIP

Alexander

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Charles Carrol » Thu, 14 May 2009 11:29:05

Alexander,

You make Hugh Robert Arthur Edwards come to life. Indeed you make me ache to
know this flawed giant so beloved of his crews. What a wonderful
description!

You've got me thinking. It is easy to find flaws in giants. Everything about
them is so visible. But, god knows, regard yourself lucky when you find one;
for they are not that easily found and we who are not giants can hardly
honor them as they deserve.

What great good fortune was yours to have been coached by him! He seems to
be still very much alive to you.

Cordially,

Charles

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Alexander Lindsa » Sun, 17 May 2009 07:00:28


Quote:
> Alexander,

> You make Hugh Robert Arthur Edwards come to life. Indeed you make me ache
> to know this flawed giant so beloved of his crews. What a wonderful
> description!

> You've got me thinking. It is easy to find flaws in giants. Everything
> about them is so visible. But, god knows, regard yourself lucky when you
> find one; for they are not that easily found and we who are not giants can
> hardly honor them as they deserve.

> What great good fortune was yours to have been coached by him! He seems to
> be still very much alive to you.

> Cordially,

> Charles

Yes indeed, a formative influence on my life.

One of his nicer legacies is that he coached at Oxford for about ten years,
and everyone coached by him rows exactly the same way.  So we can put
together veteran crews and there are no problems, and no arguments.  We all
just row his way.

It is also worth remembering that in those days coaches were "honorary".  He
did it all for love, and didn't get a penny in return.

Alexander

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Carl Dougla » Sun, 17 May 2009 09:06:32

Quote:



>> Alexander,

>> You make Hugh Robert Arthur Edwards come to life. Indeed you make me ache
>> to know this flawed giant so beloved of his crews. What a wonderful
>> description!

>> You've got me thinking. It is easy to find flaws in giants. Everything
>> about them is so visible. But, god knows, regard yourself lucky when you
>> find one; for they are not that easily found and we who are not giants can
>> hardly honor them as they deserve.

>> What great good fortune was yours to have been coached by him! He seems to
>> be still very much alive to you.

>> Cordially,

>> Charles

> Yes indeed, a formative influence on my life.

> One of his nicer legacies is that he coached at Oxford for about ten years,
> and everyone coached by him rows exactly the same way.  So we can put
> together veteran crews and there are no problems, and no arguments.  We all
> just row his way.

> It is also worth remembering that in those days coaches were "honorary".  He
> did it all for love, and didn't get a penny in return.

> Alexander

One of many advantages of intelligent coaches of independent mind &
unconventional habits, such as Jumbo Edwards, was that they dared to
think, experiment &, where necessary, to disrupt orthodoxies.  Their
non-conformity & success were an inspiration & a breath of fresh air.

Such coaches are well worth paying, but it is easy to feel uneasy over
today's growing expectation of being paid to coach where, not long ago,
coaches freely gave back to the sport what had been given them for free.
  That a coach is paid does not always or necessarily make them ideal.

Equally, some are dumbfounded by the scheme in the UK whereby, before
you may coach, you must first spend ~GBP1400/US$2000 for a coaching
course.  How is that going down with clubs & volunteer coaches?

Finally, if coaching is so much better these days, why are so many young
rowers apparently being injured & spat out of coached schemes, never to
return?  Where are the follow-up studies to find what causes these
problems & what can be done to reduce their incidence?  Why does rowing,
a sport in many ways ideal for low-impact strengthening of physique &
fitness, now seem to consider "wastage" of this kind a necessary &
acceptable price for success?

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf

URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

 
 
 

Draw the finish hard

Post by Charles Carrol » Sun, 17 May 2009 11:38:06

Alexander,

It may interest you to know that I finally found a copy of Hugh Robert
Arthur Edwards' "The Way of a Man with a Blade." Not having known Mr.
Edwards, it's hard for me to call him "Jumbo." In any event, I ordered it
and Edmond Warre's "On the Grammar of Rowing." So I am on my way now to
becoming educated.

I once heard the venerable Stringfellow Barr tell a story. He had been asked
to give a lecture at a college here in the States back in the mid 1960s. I
think it was Amherst or Williams, something like that. The next afternoon he
was in the quad, where he found a couple of students talking. The professor,
who was his guide, introduced everyone. Barr always used the same gambit
when he was introduced to students. He simply asked what they were reading.

After a bit of embarrassment one of the students boldly asserted that he and
his colleagues really didn't read much these days. Campus life was so
stimulating, he explained. It is the sixties. Great conversations were
happening everywhere. The world was changing. Life was real. Life certainly
wasn't to be found in books. It was to be found in friendship and
conversation.

Barr, the elderly historian, immediately agreed. Nothing is more important,
more human, he said, than real friendship and conversation.

The students smiled. In this brave new world of the sixties books had become
pass and largely irrelevant. And this old man understood!

Yes, Barr said, but I have a problem. Some of my best friends lived two
thousand years ago. And how can I converse with them, how can I know what
they thought was bad or good, and what they felt, and what they loved and
hated, and what they dreamed and aspired to achieve, except through their
books?

Anyway, maybe I'll be able to start something of a conversation with Mr.
Edwards.

Cordially,

Charles