Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by Charles Carrol » Thu, 26 Apr 2012 02:57:23


Dear all,

Once again I find myself in need of your expert opinions and your advice if
you have any.

Have any of you, or do you know of anyone, who has raced a flat-water
racing shell down a course in Force 3 conditions with the waves coming at
you broadside on?

Force 3 on the Beaufort Scale is defined as gentle breeze (actually quite
a strong wind in this case), large wavelets, crests beginning to break,
scattered whitecaps, some swells.

My best guess is that the large wavelets were roughly 45 to 60 cm high
(18 to 24 inches). Also they came in very short intervals.

I ask because last Sunday at our Clubs Annual Regatta I found it all but
impossible to race in these conditions. I tried shortening up and raising
the rate. I tried placing the blades deeper. I tried tacking, i.e. rowing
with and against the waves on diagonal lines. Nothing I tried worked.

But the people in open water boats meaning everyone else finished the
race. It was a hard slog over a 10k course, but at least they finished. No
ones time was very good. But everyone did finish.

So I guess what I am asking is whether it is the chariot or the horse?

I had no trouble when I made up my mind to not finish. I just turned 90 deg
and sculled into the wind and waves, and arrived at the dock 15 minutes or
so thereafter. The footwell filled with water many times, but Carls shell
bailed well as it always does. And I was able to keep the shell pretty much
level and move it straight.

But, as I have already said, it was a different story with the wind and
waves coming at me broadside on. In those conditions it was all I could
manage to keep upright.

Maybe someone can suggest a technique. Or should I just become reconciled
that I cannot race my beautiful shell under the conditions I have
described?

Cordially,

Charles

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by ellen.scull.. » Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:38:32

Speaking as a member of the race committee, and as one of the competitors on the water, I think Charles made the right decision, and that yes, these conditions might not have been ideal racing conditions for his beautiful boat.  

But it is a tribute to both the boat and its sculler that they made it back to the dock.  The water was challenging enough for any boat, and most of the intrepid rowers who usually race a mile beyond the Golden Gate and back  were happy to have the course shortened by those two miles.

There was another sculler who chose to return to the dock rather than finish the race, there were two who chose not to row at all, and  there were two who chose to row the more stable Maas Aero rather than their own Maas Flyweights.

And Charles, you did have the technique.  You stayed in your boat, and it brought you home.  Sustaining that technique for more than an hour is another issue completely.  

Now that the reliable summer winds are upon us, let's go spend some time out on the bay playing around.

Ellen

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by Charles Carrol » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 02:39:10

Quote:
> I think Charles made the right decision

Ellen,

There is a part of me that thinks, Oh, if only I had dug deeper and pulled
harder I would have finished the course.

Another part of me, however, knows that this kind of second guessing about
what might have been is pointless. I concede, even if it makes me a little
unhappy, that I made the right decision. In short I took personal
responsibility for my own safety.

What prompts these thoughts this morning is the piece in todays San
Francisco Chronicle about the loss of life in The Full Crew Farallones Race
the weekend before our Regatta. This tragedy was on my mind, and certainly
on the Cost Guards mind, and the Race Committees mind, and mostly likely
in the thoughts of everyone who raced Sunday.

I agree with Bryan Chong, who writes: the biggest lesson I learned that
day wasnt about any piece of equipment. It was about taking personal
responsibility for my own safety.

Cordially,

Charles

Ps. For those of you who dont follow what happens in the San Francisco Bay
Area, five very experienced, professional sailors lost their lives when the
yacht they were racing got in the path of a "wall of crashing water. For
the full story:

http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2012/04/24/farallones-survivor-sailors-mu...

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by Carl » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 03:58:09


Quote:
>> I think Charles made the right decision

> Ellen,

> There is a part of me that thinks, Oh, if only I had dug deeper and pulled
> harder I would have finished the course.

> Another part of me, however, knows that this kind of second guessing about
> what might have been is pointless. I concede, even if it makes me a little
> unhappy, that I made the right decision. In short I took personal
> responsibility for my own safety.

> What prompts these thoughts this morning is the piece in todays San
> Francisco Chronicle about the loss of life in The Full Crew Farallones Race
> the weekend before our Regatta. This tragedy was on my mind, and certainly
> on the Cost Guards mind, and the Race Committees mind, and mostly likely
> in the thoughts of everyone who raced Sunday.

> I agree with Bryan Chong, who writes: the biggest lesson I learned that
> day wasnt about any piece of equipment. It was about taking personal
> responsibility for my own safety.

> Cordially,

> Charles

> Ps. For those of you who dont follow what happens in the San Francisco Bay
> Area, five very experienced, professional sailors lost their lives when the
> yacht they were racing got in the path of a "wall of crashing water. For
> the full story:

> http://SportToday.org/

Charles -

One measure of one's wisdom is to know when to quit.  There's no point
in going on when a wise, quiet voice in the back of your head tells you
it's becoming pointless & pointlessly dangerous.  There is real
watermanship in first recognising when you have met the boundary between
fun & e***ment on the one hand & needless danger on the other.  And
there's great watermanship in extricating yourself & getting safely home
before matters get out of hand.  You should be proud of your actions
that day.  And proud that, by not overstepping that invisible line, you
did not become a danger to those who would doubtless have risked their
lives to rescue you, nor damaged your equipment, nor became another sad
statistic.

That article & the frank comments of the survivor carried a lesson for
all of us.  The water is no respecter of those who ignore the
fundamental rules of water safety, & the self-critical remarks re
failure to use safety lines were dead (unfortunately) right.  I hope
others will heed them.

And that's a fearsome lee shore in that video.  If that's where they
finished up it's amazing anyone survived.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    http://SportToday.org/

URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:19:28



Quote:
> Dear all,

> Once again I find myself in need of your expert opinions and your advice if
> you have any.

> Have any of you, or do you know of anyone, who has raced a flat-water
> racing shell down a course in Force 3 conditions with the waves coming at
> you broadside on?

> Force 3 on the Beaufort Scale is defined as gentle breeze (actually quite
> a strong wind in this case), large wavelets, crests beginning to break,
> scattered whitecaps, some swells.

> My best guess is that the large wavelets were roughly 45 to 60 cm high
> (18 to 24 inches). Also they came in very short intervals.

> I ask because last Sunday at our Clubs Annual Regatta I found it all but
> impossible to race in these conditions. I tried shortening up and raising
> the rate. I tried placing the blades deeper. I tried tacking, i.e. rowing
> with and against the waves on diagonal lines. Nothing I tried worked.

> But the people in open water boats meaning everyone else finished the
> race. It was a hard slog over a 10k course, but at least they finished. No
> ones time was very good. But everyone did finish.

> So I guess what I am asking is whether it is the chariot or the horse?

> I had no trouble when I made up my mind to not finish. I just turned 90 deg
> and sculled into the wind and waves, and arrived at the dock 15 minutes or
> so thereafter. The footwell filled with water many times, but Carls shell
> bailed well as it always does. And I was able to keep the shell pretty much
> level and move it straight.

> But, as I have already said, it was a different story with the wind and
> waves coming at me broadside on. In those conditions it was all I could
> manage to keep upright.

> Maybe someone can suggest a technique. Or should I just become reconciled
> that I cannot race my beautiful shell under the conditions I have
> described?

yes.  Grab an Aero and go for it.

Can you climb back in a boat when it's really rough and blowing?
It's a lot harder, many I ,know who I've taught to climb back in a
single/aero when it's warm and calm would be incapable in rough water,
and would be incapable of moving the boat against a wind while in the
water.

The chop estimate of 24", is that trough to peak?

I call that 1 ft chop, and that's too much for a single, and it's no
longer a competitive event but survival and a lot of luck.

I took a Pocock trainer out in nearly 2 ft chop once to see what would
happen,   got about 100 meters when a wave simply washed over bow and
floated me out of the boat.   I got banged up good climbing back in.

On same day I took out a single wherry and the thing was awesome,
could go anywhere I wanted any direction, picked up about a quart of
water in about 30 mins though, just from spray.

Aeros and 24s are fine.

Nice to see Ellen on board!

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 04:35:29


snip

Quote:

> That article & the frank comments of the survivor carried a lesson for
> all of us. ?The water is no respecter of those who ignore the
> fundamental rules of water safety, & the self-critical remarks re
> failure to use safety lines were dead (unfortunately) right. ?I hope
> others will heed them.

I agree, Lee was quoted in the SF Chron this morning,  his statement
I quote here was very thoughtful:

Its simply a bad habit that formed due to a false sense of security
in the ocean, he said. Its obvious to me now that I should have
been clipped into the boat at every possible opportunity.

Chong added, Until the accident, I believe that to tether or not was
a personal choice. But now my thinking extends beyond the safety of an
individual to that of the team as a whole. One person overboard puts
the entire crew at risk.

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by ATP » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 07:52:57




Quote:
> Dear all,

> Once again I find myself in need of your expert opinions and your advice
> if
> you have any.

> Have any of you, or do you know of anyone, who has raced a flat-water
> racing shell down a course in Force 3 conditions with the waves coming at
> you broadside on?

> Force 3 on the Beaufort Scale is defined as gentle breeze (actually quite
> a strong wind in this case), large wavelets, crests beginning to break,
> scattered whitecaps, some swells.

> My best guess is that the large wavelets were roughly 45 to 60 cm high
> (18 to 24 inches). Also they came in very short intervals.

> I ask because last Sunday at our Clubs Annual Regatta I found it all but
> impossible to race in these conditions. I tried shortening up and raising
> the rate. I tried placing the blades deeper. I tried tacking, i.e. rowing
> with and against the waves on diagonal lines. Nothing I tried worked.

> But the people in open water boats meaning everyone else finished the
> race. It was a hard slog over a 10k course, but at least they finished. No
> ones time was very good. But everyone did finish.

> So I guess what I am asking is whether it is the chariot or the horse?

> I had no trouble when I made up my mind to not finish. I just turned 90
> deg
> and sculled into the wind and waves, and arrived at the dock 15 minutes or
> so thereafter. The footwell filled with water many times, but Carls shell
> bailed well as it always does. And I was able to keep the shell pretty
> much
> level and move it straight.

> But, as I have already said, it was a different story with the wind and
> waves coming at me broadside on. In those conditions it was all I could
> manage to keep upright.

> Maybe someone can suggest a technique. Or should I just become reconciled
> that I cannot race my beautiful shell under the conditions I have
> described?

yes.  Grab an Aero and go for it.

Can you climb back in a boat when it's really rough and blowing?
It's a lot harder, many I ,know who I've taught to climb back in a
single/aero when it's warm and calm would be incapable in rough water,
and would be incapable of moving the boat against a wind while in the
water.

The chop estimate of 24", is that trough to peak?

I call that 1 ft chop, and that's too much for a single, and it's no
longer a competitive event but survival and a lot of luck.

I took a Pocock trainer out in nearly 2 ft chop once to see what would
happen,   got about 100 meters when a wave simply washed over bow and
floated me out of the boat.   I got banged up good climbing back in.

On same day I took out a single wherry and the thing was awesome,
could go anywhere I wanted any direction, picked up about a quart of
water in about 30 mins though, just from spray.

Aeros and 24s are fine.

I have a 24, I can handle fairly rough water in the bay but find it
difficult to negotiate transverse waves in one foot chop, usually I tack as
Charles described. Is it just a question of technique? Even in my larger
rowing craft it's difficult to adjust to broadside waves.

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:45:25


Quote:





snip

Quote:
> I have a 24, I can handle fairly rough water in the bay but find it
> difficult to negotiate transverse waves in one foot chop, usually I tack as
> Charles described. Is it just a question of technique? Even in my larger
> rowing craft it's difficult to adjust to broadside waves.

By transverse, do you mean directly broadside?   Yes, those are
difficult
in any boat.    Because the whole boat rises and falls with the swell,
it's difficult to find the water with your blades consistently, as
well as one blade catching in a wave, and another in the trough.

So your sense of 'tacking' is correct.

Depending on the swell size of head-on chop, it can be more effective
to tack as well.

Shortening up is good,  you should your full legs, but almost no body
swing at either end when really rough, keeping your oars from getting
too parallel at catch, and at finish I like to have my hands release
in front of my body instead of pulled farther thru.  If a chop hits
loose my oar, I can catch the oar in front of me rather than have it
go past me and flipping.

When I climb back into a boat in wind/chop,  I like to turn the boat
broadside to the chop so that the wind/waves are at my back as I climb
in.  This way I'm not getting the boat bashed in my face as I'm
grabbing oar handles.   Once on the boat I'll take a couple quick
short strokes on one side to get me pointed partially downwind while
I'm collecting my seat and getting feet in.

Here's an experiment I haven't tried yet.   Put on lifejacket,  go for
row in heavy wind, even if not really choppy (closer to shore).  fall
in, count 5.

can I catch my boat or will it blow away from me?

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by zeke_hoski » Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:08:05


Quote:




> snip

> > I have a 24, I can handle fairly rough water in the bay but find it
> > difficult to negotiate transverse waves in one foot chop, usually I tack as
> > Charles described. Is it just a question of technique? Even in my larger
> > rowing craft it's difficult to adjust to broadside waves.

> By transverse, do you mean directly broadside? ? Yes, those are
> difficult
> in any boat. ? ?Because the whole boat rises and falls with the swell,
> it's difficult to find the water with your blades consistently, as
> well as one blade catching in a wave, and another in the trough.

> So your sense of 'tacking' is correct.

> Depending on the swell size of head-on chop, it can be more effective
> to tack as well.

> Shortening up is good, ?you should your full legs, but almost no body
> swing at either end when really rough, keeping your oars from getting
> too parallel at catch, and at finish I like to have my hands release
> in front of my body instead of pulled farther thru. ?If a chop hits
> loose my oar, I can catch the oar in front of me rather than have it
> go past me and flipping.

> When I climb back into a boat in wind/chop, ?I like to turn the boat
> broadside to the chop so that the wind/waves are at my back as I climb
> in. ?This way I'm not getting the boat bashed in my face as I'm
> grabbing oar handles. ? Once on the boat I'll take a couple quick
> short strokes on one side to get me pointed partially downwind while
> I'm collecting my seat and getting feet in.

> Here's an experiment I haven't tried yet. ? Put on lifejacket, ?go for
> row in heavy wind, even if not really choppy (closer to shore). ?fall
> in, count 5.

> can I catch my boat or will it blow away from me?

The last time I raced my Maas 24, the conditions were as described.
None of the fla***er singles finished the crosswind leg of the
course.

Sully: if you row alone in wind, you MUST have a lifeline.

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:38:23


Quote:





> > snip

> > > I have a 24, I can handle fairly rough water in the bay but find it
> > > difficult to negotiate transverse waves in one foot chop, usually I tack as
> > > Charles described. Is it just a question of technique? Even in my larger
> > > rowing craft it's difficult to adjust to broadside waves.

> > By transverse, do you mean directly broadside? ? Yes, those are
> > difficult
> > in any boat. ? ?Because the whole boat rises and falls with the swell,
> > it's difficult to find the water with your blades consistently, as
> > well as one blade catching in a wave, and another in the trough.

> > So your sense of 'tacking' is correct.

> > Depending on the swell size of head-on chop, it can be more effective
> > to tack as well.

> > Shortening up is good, ?you should your full legs, but almost no body
> > swing at either end when really rough, keeping your oars from getting
> > too parallel at catch, and at finish I like to have my hands release
> > in front of my body instead of pulled farther thru. ?If a chop hits
> > loose my oar, I can catch the oar in front of me rather than have it
> > go past me and flipping.

> > When I climb back into a boat in wind/chop, ?I like to turn the boat
> > broadside to the chop so that the wind/waves are at my back as I climb
> > in. ?This way I'm not getting the boat bashed in my face as I'm
> > grabbing oar handles. ? Once on the boat I'll take a couple quick
> > short strokes on one side to get me pointed partially downwind while
> > I'm collecting my seat and getting feet in.

> > Here's an experiment I haven't tried yet. ? Put on lifejacket, ?go for
> > row in heavy wind, even if not really choppy (closer to shore). ?fall
> > in, count 5.

> > can I catch my boat or will it blow away from me?

> The last time I raced my Maas 24, the conditions were as described.
> None of the fla***er singles finished the crosswind leg of the
> course.

> Sully: if you row alone in wind, you MUST have a lifeline.

When I go out anymore in really rough water it's to play around and
experiment with stuff like this.    I was out in a surfski in really
strong onshores trying to surf it.    no, no lifeline necessary here,
as if I lose the boat it blows to shore and I swim to shore to get it.

Once I give the surfski a little head start, I can't quite catch it
swimming.  I think my daughter who is a real swimmer could.

When I've done the same in a single, the oars being on the water add
just enough drag that I can catch it , but most ppl in my club would
not be able to. but I'm a capable ocean swimmer.

I haven't played with pdfs enough.

The tether I have designed is a surfboard leash, with a velcro ankle
strap that can be easily removed.

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 02:57:34


Quote:






> >> snip

> >>> I have a 24, I can handle fairly rough water in the bay but find it
> >>> difficult to negotiate transverse waves in one foot chop, usually I tack as
> >>> Charles described. Is it just a question of technique? Even in my larger
> >>> rowing craft it's difficult to adjust to broadside waves.

> >> By transverse, do you mean directly broadside? ? Yes, those are
> >> difficult
> >> in any boat. ? ?Because the whole boat rises and falls with the swell,
> >> it's difficult to find the water with your blades consistently, as
> >> well as one blade catching in a wave, and another in the trough.

> >> So your sense of 'tacking' is correct.

> >> Depending on the swell size of head-on chop, it can be more effective
> >> to tack as well.

> >> Shortening up is good, ?you should your full legs, but almost no body
> >> swing at either end when really rough, keeping your oars from getting
> >> too parallel at catch, and at finish I like to have my hands release
> >> in front of my body instead of pulled farther thru. ?If a chop hits
> >> loose my oar, I can catch the oar in front of me rather than have it
> >> go past me and flipping.

> >> When I climb back into a boat in wind/chop, ?I like to turn the boat
> >> broadside to the chop so that the wind/waves are at my back as I climb
> >> in. ?This way I'm not getting the boat bashed in my face as I'm
> >> grabbing oar handles. ? Once on the boat I'll take a couple quick
> >> short strokes on one side to get me pointed partially downwind while
> >> I'm collecting my seat and getting feet in.

> >> Here's an experiment I haven't tried yet. ? Put on lifejacket, ?go for
> >> row in heavy wind, even if not really choppy (closer to shore). ?fall
> >> in, count 5.

> >> can I catch my boat or will it blow away from me?

> > The last time I raced my Maas 24, the conditions were as described.
> > None of the fla***er singles finished the crosswind leg of the
> > course.

> > Sully: if you row alone in wind, you MUST have a lifeline.

> I'll second that advice. ?In a very moderate breeze, even an upturned
> sculling boat can move quite quickly. ?A swimmer, having close to
> neutral buoyancy, is barely moved by the wind. ?Even quite a small
> amount of wind can move the boat away faster than the swimmer can swim
> towards it. ?And we are talking about waves, which make it a whole lot
> harder for the swimmer to see & to orientate.

Waves can completely panic and disorient an
otherwise sound swimmer.   A boat will blow much faster
in protected windy water, than in very rough.

The single outriggers and surfskis that go out regularly
in very rough windy bay water (they seek it),  don't
tether themselves, but tether their paddles.   They've
told me that they can catch their boat if they go over,
but they universally use the buddy system, they always
paddle in groups.

Neither of the clubs I teach at has a open water rowing
culture,  it's all about protected water,  and the club has
become very hesitant in fog anymore.

I have a clinic saturday called 'teaching beginners to row".
I'll let y'all know how it goes.    My first lesson is going
to be really cool.

We'll go through the motions right away of putting an Aero
on the water and having me be "the beginner" showing me
how to get in the Aero.   We'll have some hilarity as
I do everything I've ever had a beginner do under my
instruction.

However, at some appropriate point I'll fall in.  And
not come up.   Tide's high enough,  water murky enough
that I can disappear.

Then we'll go have a chalk talk in the boathouse while
I dry off and warm up a bit for the rest of the water work.
I will have one "plant" who will know I'm doing this on purpose,
who will stay silent, and once the effect has been made will quell the
panic.

Think it's a good lesson?

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by Richard du » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:55:31


Quote:

[big snip]

> I have a clinic saturday called 'teaching beginners to row".
> I'll let y'all know how it goes. ? ?My first lesson is going
> to be really cool.

> We'll go through the motions right away of putting an Aero
> on the water and having me be "the beginner" showing me
> how to get in the Aero. ? We'll have some hilarity as
> I do everything I've ever had a beginner do under my
> instruction.

> However, at some appropriate point I'll fall in. ?And
> not come up. ? Tide's high enough, ?water murky enough
> that I can disappear.

> Then we'll go have a chalk talk in the boathouse while
> I dry off and warm up a bit for the rest of the water work.
> I will have one "plant" who will know I'm doing this on purpose,
> who will stay silent, and once the effect has been made will quell the
> panic.

> Think it's a good lesson?

Sully, hope I haven't overlooked an "irony alert"

Can you promise that you will always eventually come up - or does your
"plant" start his stopwatch, and come in after you on ?30 seconds?

I'll really miss you.

Richard du P

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by sull » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 17:16:03


Quote:

> [big snip]

> > I have a clinic saturday called 'teaching beginners to row".
> > I'll let y'all know how it goes. ? ?My first lesson is going
> > to be really cool.

> > We'll go through the motions right away of putting an Aero
> > on the water and having me be "the beginner" showing me
> > how to get in the Aero. ? We'll have some hilarity as
> > I do everything I've ever had a beginner do under my
> > instruction.

> > However, at some appropriate point I'll fall in. ?And
> > not come up. ? Tide's high enough, ?water murky enough
> > that I can disappear.

> > Then we'll go have a chalk talk in the boathouse while
> > I dry off and warm up a bit for the rest of the water work.
> > I will have one "plant" who will know I'm doing this on purpose,
> > who will stay silent, and once the effect has been made will quell the
> > panic.

> > Think it's a good lesson?

> Sully, hope I haven't overlooked an "irony alert"

> Can you promise that you will always eventually come up - or does your
> "plant" start his stopwatch, and come in after you on ?30 seconds?

> I'll really miss you.

> Richard du P

LOL I'm willing to risk my life, and I appreciate the sentiment.

I'm not subjecting them to anything I haven't experienced.  The point
of education is to share my experience. I've been there.

 
 
 

Flat-water racing shells racing in rough water

Post by Carl » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:04:52


Quote:


>> [big snip]

>>> I have a clinic saturday called 'teaching beginners to row".
>>> I'll let y'all know how it goes.    My first lesson is going
>>> to be really cool.

>>> We'll go through the motions right away of putting an Aero
>>> on the water and having me be "the beginner" showing me
>>> how to get in the Aero.   We'll have some hilarity as
>>> I do everything I've ever had a beginner do under my
>>> instruction.

>>> However, at some appropriate point I'll fall in.  And
>>> not come up.   Tide's high enough,  water murky enough
>>> that I can disappear.

>>> Then we'll go have a chalk talk in the boathouse while
>>> I dry off and warm up a bit for the rest of the water work.
>>> I will have one "plant" who will know I'm doing this on purpose,
>>> who will stay silent, and once the effect has been made will quell the
>>> panic.

>>> Think it's a good lesson?

>> Sully, hope I haven't overlooked an "irony alert"

>> Can you promise that you will always eventually come up - or does your
>> "plant" start his stopwatch, and come in after you on ?30 seconds?

>> I'll really miss you.

>> Richard du P

> LOL I'm willing to risk my life, and I appreciate the sentiment.

> I'm not subjecting them to anything I haven't experienced.  The point
> of education is to share my experience. I've been there.

But will they all survive your experience?  In your litigious lands,
wouldn't an action causing shock & cardiac arrest, or even a simple loss
of bowel control, among your audience get you slapped with
multi-billions law suit?

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find:    http://tinyurl.com/2tqujf

URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)