Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by One Man's Foo » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> But he's not one of the premier batters in the league.  What did you
> say his rank was, 38th?  Yet he's won two MVPs and is often considered
> one of the top 5 or 10 offensive players in baseball, which is clearly
> overrating him.

Oh Jesus Mary Joseph! Juan Gonzalez only the 38th best hitter in baseball?
That is so absurd as to make it, and whoever came up with it, laughable.

But please . . . tell me, who are the 37 that are better than he is? And
why?

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Mischa E Gelm » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>But he's not one of the premier batters in the league.  What did you
>say his rank was, 38th?  Yet he's won two MVPs and is often considered
>one of the top 5 or 10 offensive players in baseball, which is clearly
>overrating him.

He can be both overrated and one of the premier batters.  I guess we just
have different definitions of premier.  A guy who would be the #1 hitter
on some teams and the #2 or so on most ranks as premier in my book.
--
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look
forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." -
G.K. Chesterton, "What's Wrong With The World"

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Dick Lon » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
>> But he's not one of the premier batters in the league.  What did you
>> say his rank was, 38th?  Yet he's won two MVPs and is often considered
>> one of the top 5 or 10 offensive players in baseball, which is clearly
>> overrating him.

>Oh Jesus Mary Joseph! Juan Gonzalez only the 38th best hitter in baseball?
>That is so absurd as to make it, and whoever came up with it, laughable.

>But please . . . tell me, who are the 37 that are better than he is? And
>why?

I believe this argument is built upon an over reliance on all the
esoteric stats.  Bottom line is, this year we will be better with him
than if we had Kapler and Cordero.  Next year it may be a tossup, fie
years from now it may be quite uneven, but this gives us a better team
for this season.

Think back three years ago.  I was sure we would be the favorite in
the AL Central this year (2000).  The old way wasn't working.  I don't
know if this will work but I am starting to think its worth a try.
Let's get Grape's opinion on this.

DL

Jeffries sucks!

Winner of the "Name the Little Fool" contest!!!

Great quote:
"The internet stuff is spooky. I am of course not
on line. I do remember ham radio operators though,
usually in attics or ba***ts, pallid, unsociable,
and obsessed, inhabiting a spirit world, and harmless."

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by David Marc Niepore » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:

>> But he's not one of the premier batters in the league.  What did you
>> say his rank was, 38th?  Yet he's won two MVPs and is often considered
>> one of the top 5 or 10 offensive players in baseball, which is clearly
>> overrating him.
>Oh Jesus Mary Joseph! Juan Gonzalez only the 38th best hitter in baseball?
>That is so absurd as to make it, and whoever came up with it, laughable.
>But please . . . tell me, who are the 37 that are better than he is? And
>why?

It was phrased badly by Vinay.

First, it refers specifically to 1999.

Second, Gonzalez was better than the 38th best hitter.  He was 38th most
valuable offensively, which is different.  The latter takes position into
account.  
--
David M. Nieporent                    R.I.P. Charles Schulz

3L - St. John's School of Law              

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Chris Cathcar » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

>Oh Jesus Mary Joseph! Juan Gonzalez only the 38th best hitter
in baseball?
>That is so absurd as to make it, and whoever came up with it,

laughable.

While 38th seems too low, his being the 38th best hitter would
not come as a surprise, and I wouldn't consider it downright
*laughable.*

Top 15, or 20, perhaps.

Chris

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Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Mischa E Gelm » Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
>It was phrased badly by Vinay.

Actually, it was phrased badly by me.  Let's put the blame where it
belongs.  Vinay just copied my incorrect usage.

Quote:
>First, it refers specifically to 1999.

Yep.  Does anyone keep VORP for past seasons?

Quote:
>Second, Gonzalez was better than the 38th best hitter.  He was 38th most
>valuable offensively, which is different.  The latter takes position into
>account.  

Well, he may have been less than 38th overall, once you factor in defense
as well.  I guess a better phrasing would have been 38th most 'valuable'
player, though that is somewhat misleading too.

*sigh*  The joys of trying to quantify talent.
--
The patience of an oppressed people cannot endure forever - Martin Luther
King, Jr

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Ira Blu » Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:


> >Every baseball writer I read refers to the Tigers' alleged need to pick
up
> a
> >high-profile superstar like Juan Gonzalez to fill the new Comerica Park
as
> a
> >given, without a second thought or a moment of reflection on the notion.

> >Why does everybody take that for granted?  With a new ballpark and the
> >talent they have in hand (they don't really suck -- it was a combination
of
> >underachieving and youth), wouldn't that have been enough to fill a brand
> >spanking new 40,000 seat ballpark, generate some revenue, and go big into
> >the lucrative FA market after the season?

> >Does everybody think the Tigers need Juan Gonzalez to fill the new
> ballpark?

> No, but they do need him to win the pennant.

> Did you see his two homers today, Chuck? He's looking awesome!

The problem is that Gonzalez is not guaranteed to be better than the Gabe
Kapler that they gave up, not to mention that the loss of Justin Thompson
and Frank Cattalano and the fact that Patterson is going to suck big time
next year.....
(:))

Ira

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Keith Wooln » Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:


> >First, it refers specifically to 1999.

> Yep.  Does anyone keep VORP for past seasons?

Yes, I do.   :-)

VORP for 1996-99 are available at stathead.com.  Check under my name in
the Author Index at http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/author.htm.  I have
estimated VORP figures for other years, though not on the web site yet.
However, since he doesn't break down outfielders into LF/CF/RF, true
positional adjustments are problematic.  But I do have play by play
data for the past couple of decades, and if I ever get my act
together, I will be able to get accurate VORP totals for 1980-99.

--

Stathead Library and VORP reports,        http://www.stathead.com
Owner, Red Sox mailing list,              http://www.woolner.com/redsox/list

Author, Baseball Prospectus 2000          http://www.baseballprospectus.com

--
--

Stathead Library and VORP reports,        http://www.stathead.com
Owner, Red Sox mailing list,              http://www.woolner.com/redsox/list

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Mischa E Gelm » Sat, 18 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
>Yes, I do.   :-)

>VORP for 1996-99 are available at stathead.com.

Sigh - went there for the '99 and didn't bother looking for the rest.

Juan was the #3 RF in '98, behind Sosa and Vladimir and just ahead of
Manny and about #28 overall.
He was around #43 in '97, trailing Edgar and (barely) Chili Davis at DH,
making him #3 at his position again.  He had a decent lead over the #4 DH,
Herr Old.
He was around #35 in '96, trailing Sheffield, Manny, Gwynn and Mondesi in
RF, making him 5th there.

So, IOW, '96-'99 he's been pretty consistently ranked, so the '99 ranking
doesn't seem like a fluke.

I really liked some of your other articles, too.  Nice work!
--
Every child born into this world must be considered as deriving its
existence from G-d
- Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense"

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Sean Duff » Fri, 07 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Quote:


>>without question!  His bat must be worth 10 extra wins to his
>>team.  Those two MVP's were well-deserved if you ask me!

More deserved than teammate Rodriguez's MVP.  Although I guess the
trend of selecting Puerto Ricans who play for the Rangers and can't
draw walks needed to be continued.

Quote:
>Well, his bat was worth 46 runs last year according to VORP, which made
>him the 8th best RF (after Manny, Abreu, Vladimir, Shawn, Belle, Larry
>Walker and Slammin Sammy), up there with some pretty good names.  It also
>landed him a good deal ahead of stathead faves like Sean Casey, John
>Olerud and Rolen.  He was far from a negative for Texas and was pretty
>much a premier bat, about 38th overall in VORP, good for #2 on most clubs
>and #1 on some.  As far as I can see, Dean Palmer led Detroit last year
>with only a 29.7 for instance.  According to PRC/27, Juan was the #7 in RF
>in terms of value, trailing the same crowd as before (except for Sammy)
>and worth 37.9 runs over replacement.  In terms of PRC/27, he was 6th,
>passing up Belle.  Sounds like a mighty decent hitter to me, one who will
>certainly benefit his new team. I think the pseudo-stathead crowd has once
>again made the leap from "overrated" to "worthless."

The funny thing is that even the most popular stathead measure, OPS,
overrates Gonzalez just like the triple crown stats do.

-Sean

 
 
 

Needing Juan Gonzalez to Fill the New Ballpark

Post by Mischa E Gelm » Sat, 08 Apr 2000 04:00:00



Quote:
>The funny thing is that even the most popular stathead measure, OPS,
>overrates Gonzalez just like the triple crown stats do.

Except OPS is more popular with pseudo-stat-fans (to borrow RLM's overused
term) than among actual statheads.
--
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