NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Terry M » Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:

 DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.

Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

... Atlanta Braves - 1996 National League East Champions!

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Cris Whetston » Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:

>  DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.

> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

You kidding, RIGHT?? Or are you just ignorant.

If the pitchers win or lose games, then why do with bother giving
hitters awards.  Please explain the big contracts the big hitters get.

Baseball is "team sport". W-L records for pitchers are the record of the
team when that pitcher was the pitcher of record. W-L can indicate
somewhat how effective a pitcher is. But only a little. Nolan Ryan led
the league in REA in 1987. "His" record: 8-16. Ryan bad or Astros
sucked?? You make the call.

Cris

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by David Pea » Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:

> DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.

>Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

It stands for Loss.

Something the pitcher gets, usually with varying degrees of help
from his teammates.

See also "Stats, Stupid".

Thank you for your time

dp

--

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NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Sarcasm Is A Way Of Lif » Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
>Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:
> DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.
>Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

Nothing of any importance.  Which isn't surprising, since the W
next to it is also of no importance.

Greg

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Ira K Blu » Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
> Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:

>  DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.

> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

A pitcher gets a loss for a game when they allow the runner to reach base
which gives the opposing team the lead.  Note, this could happen in the
first inning, or the last inning.  Also note, if this runner is erased in
a fielder's choice, the runner which reaches on this fielders choice is
credited to the previous pitcher.  for ex:

starting pitcher has a perfect game going:
0-0 game, bottom of the ninth inning, one out.

starting pitcher gives up a walk.
starting pitcher is removed from the game.
next batter hits a ball to second, and the second baseman flips to the
shortstop who then throws the ball into the dugout.  batter advances to
second.
third batter singles scoring the runner from second.

Starting pitcher's line:

name                 IP  H  R  ER  BB
Starting Pitcher, L  8.3 0  1   0   1
Relief Pitcher       .3  1  0   0   0

Boy that starter really lost the game for his team.  How dare he allow a
runner to reach base!

Obviously the above was not typical, but in reality, all one must do to
show the uselessness of W-L over ERA is to examine Kevin Brown's year.

Ira

Go Rangers and Phillies (and Cowboys and Mavericks and Speed Racer Go!)
- Jeff Foxworthy
Please direct all flames to /dev/null

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Wenthold Paul » Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

>A pitcher gets a loss for a game when they allow the runner to reach base
>which gives the opposing team the lead.  Note, this could happen in the
>first inning, or the last inning.

how about this for a stupid example:

Top of the first, first batter gets on base on an error.  Pitcher A
gets tightness in his arm, goes out of the game.  Next pitcher
comes in and promptly gives up a two run homer.  2 more runs
score in the inning.  In the bottom of the first, the team
scores 3 runs.  Now, throughout the rest of the game, lots
of scoring by both teams, but team A never gets the lead.  The
final score is 10-9.  Pitcher A gets the loss, despite the fact
he only pitched to one batter and that guy got on by an error.
That "L" next to his name tells you a whole lot there, doesn't
it.

What is even stupider is that if team A had been the visiting
team in that exact same scenerio, Pitcher A couldn't get
the loss because his run allowed would have only made the
score 3-1.  How's that for non-sensical?

paul

--
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NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Albert Ya » Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:00:00



:
: > Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:
: >
: >  DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.
: >
: > Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?
:
:
: A pitcher gets a loss for a game when they allow the runner to reach base
: which gives the opposing team the lead.  Note, this could happen in the

You left out "which they never relinquish."
--
Albert Yang                        |Why are there interstate highways

http://dcn.davis.ca.us/~albert/    |

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Terry M » Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:00:00

Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, Cris Whetstone wrote to All  on 23 Sep 96:

 >> DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.
 >>
 >> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?
 CW>
 CW> You kidding, RIGHT?? Or are you just ignorant.

Neither.  My original message talked about pitchers who lose a lot of games.
Anybody not "ignorant" knows that when you talk about a pitcher losing a
game, you mean it goes as a loss on his W-L record.  It doesn't mean that he
lost the game all by himself.  I guess I made the mistake of assuming that
people on here were baseball literate.

 CW> Baseball is "team sport". W-L records for pitchers are the record of
 CW> the team when that pitcher was the pitcher of record. W-L can indicate
 CW> somewhat how effective a pitcher is. But only a little. Nolan Ryan led
 CW> the league in REA in 1987. "His" record: 8-16. Ryan bad or Astros
 CW> sucked?? You make the call.

I don't know what REA is (Runs Earned Average? :), but I think Ryan was a very
good pitcher who was great at times.  I've always been on his side in the
semi-annual Nolan Ryan for Hall of Fame arguments.

...  Multitasking:  Start download; grab a beer; watch some baseball.

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by David Niepore » Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>David Nieporent wrote to All  on 20 Sep 96:
> DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.
>Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

Lame stat.
--
David M. Nieporent     |"I have been participating in the USENET for many

Plainsboro, NJ         |for anyone to know anything about any subject to post
DAVEY & ORIOLES 1996!!!|on any newsgroup."  -- seen on talk.politics.misc.
 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Terry M » Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:00:00

Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Pease wrote to All  on 23 Sep 96:

 >> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?
 DP>
 DP> It stands for Loss.
 DP>
 DP> Something the pitcher gets, usually with varying degrees of help
 DP> from his teammates.
 DP>
 DP> See also "Stats, Stupid".

Let me ask you something, brainiac.  If I say Smoltz won last night, do you
think I mean that he got the victory, or do you think I mean he won all by
himself last night with no help from his teammates?  Geez, you've never said a
pitcher won or lost a game?

... Atlanta Braves - Five straight division titles!

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by David Pea » Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:00:00


[deletia...]

Quote:
>Let me ask you something, brainiac.

OK.

Quote:
>If I say Smoltz won last night, do you
>think I mean that he got the victory, or do you think I mean he won all by
>himself last night with no help from his teammates?

I think you mean he got a W next to his name, which doesn't keep the stat
from being stupid, which is what I said in the first place in response to
your moronic premise that "pitchers get L; that means they lose games"
(paraphrased).

Quote:
>Geez, you've never said a pitcher won or lost a game?

Uhh, I've said a hitter got an RBI too.  Doesn't keep it from being a
dumb number to keep track of.

Thank you for your time

dp

--

Attention, bottom feeders who want me to buy something or are making
a list to sell: I won't be buying, so don't send me any junk email.
Permission is not granted to use my address on any unsolicited mailing list.

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by David Pea » Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

> >> DN> Pitchers don't lose games.  Teams do.

> >> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?

     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote:
> CW>
> CW> You kidding, RIGHT?? Or are you just ignorant.

>Neither.

You may not understand that you look ignorant, but how could
anyone assume any different when they read the quotes above?

Reading the emphasized passage above, it is completely reasonable
to come to the conclusion that, in fact, you are saying that
pitchers *do* lose games all by themselves.

Say what you mean next time.  If you want to be cute and nitpick,
at least read over your post before you send it off.

Oh, and welcome to rsbb.

Thank you for your time

dp

--

Attention, bottom feeders who want me to buy something or are making
a list to sell: I won't be buying, so don't send me any junk email.
Permission is not granted to use my address on any unsolicited mailing list.

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Wenthold Paul » Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:00:00


Quote:

>Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Pease wrote to All  on 23 Sep 96:

> >> Then what does the "L" stand for in their "W-L" record?
> DP>
> DP> It stands for Loss.
> DP>
> DP> Something the pitcher gets, usually with varying degrees of help
> DP> from his teammates.
> DP>
> DP> See also "Stats, Stupid".

>Let me ask you something, brainiac.  If I say Smoltz won last night, do you
>think I mean that he got the victory, or do you think I mean he won all by
>himself last night with no help from his teammates?  Geez, you've never said a
>pitcher won or lost a game?

Wait a minute.  Something is cut out of the post above.  If you recall,
one of the original statements was:

"teams win games, not individuals" to which
you responded:

"then what does the L stand for next to his name."

So if you really know that teams win games and it's not
an individual thing, why did you replay with such a snide
comment?

And, personally, no, I don't say "the pitcher won or lost
the game".  You will hear me say "he got the win (loss)",
indicating that he was assigned the "W" or "L", but I
don't say "he won".

paul

--
!!                 ELECTION '96 WRITE-IN CAMPAIGN:                 !!
!!       Vote for Jan Brady, Most Popular Girl in the Class!       !!
!!                                                                 !!
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NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Terry M » Fri, 27 Sep 1996 04:00:00

Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, David Pease wrote to All  on 25 Sep 96:

 >> If I say Smoltz won last night, do you
 >> think I mean that he got the victory, or do you think I mean he won all
 >> by himself last night with no help from his teammates?
 DP>
 DP> I think you mean he got a W next to his name, which doesn't keep the
 DP> stat from being stupid, which is what I said in the first place in
 DP> response to your moronic premise that "pitchers get L; that means they
 DP> lose games" (paraphrased).

And paraphrased very badly.  

This whole thread started when someone suggested that Most Valuable Player
doesn't necessarily mean most valuable to his team.  I asked if not most
valuable to his team, who could he be valuable for?  I further asked, somewhat
tongue in cheek, if you'd give it to a pitcher who lost to virtually every team
in the league, meaning he'd be valuable to all those teams.

Now any baseball fan with just a little common sense would realize I was
talking about losses on his record, and not that he lost the games all by
himself.

... Atlanta Braves - Five straight division titles!

 
 
 

NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)

Post by Terry M » Fri, 27 Sep 1996 04:00:00

Re: _NL MVP (was Burks MVP? Hah!)_, Ira K Blum wrote to All  on 24 Sep 96:

 IKB> Obviously the above was not typical, but in reality, all one must do
 IKB> to show the uselessness of W-L over ERA is to examine Kevin Brown's
 IKB> year.

So who do you think will get the Cy YOung, Brown or Smoltz?

I'm a big fan of the ERA, but it's not a perfect indicator, either.  It has a
lot to do with what type of ballpark you play in and what kind of defense you
have behind you.  For that matter, it has to do with what type of offense you
have, because you pitch different with a big lead than you do in a tight game.

... Everybody's do-o-oing the Tomahawk Chop now...