All-time Team

All-time Team

Post by b.. » Sun, 16 Feb 1992 13:19:00


 Somebody's all-time team is as follows.....
  >
  >1B Keith Hernendaz
  >2B Jackie Robinson
  >SS Cal Ripken Jr.
  >3B Mike Schmidt
  >LF Hank Aaron
  >CF Joe Dimaggio
  >RF Roberto Clemente
  >C  Johnny Beach
  >RSP Tom Seaver  
  >    Bob Gibson
  >    Nolan Ryan
  >LSP Sandy Koufax
  >    Warren Spahn
  >
  >RP  Rollie Fingers(I forgot another one)
  >
  >I know this is just a personal opinion. But how can anyone put KH
  >over Lou Gehrig in the 1B? (Not to mention where is Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb
  >or Willie Mays, etc.)

    These things are always fun because there are no right answers. :-)

    However, Aaron played RF instead of left, though sometimes
  outfielders are picked as a group.  There must be a dozen guys you
  could start in those 3 positions and have a damn good outfield.

    But if you are playing the percentages on offense, I don't see
  how anyone could omit the highest all-time on-base percentage (Ted
  Williams at .486) and the best slugging percentage by a mile
  Babe Ruth at .690 w/Williams next at .634).

    Hernandez had a great career - is he still playing? - but I'd
  have to take Gehrig with his thir*** consecutive years of 100+ RBI.
  (Has anyone else ever done that?)  He also has the peculiar distinction
  of having the highest average RBI on his homeruns, which probably
  means nothing but is one of those fun stats where SOMEBODY has to be
  first.  He has the most grand slams of all time which means that
  he is the one I want up there with the bases loaded if Pat Tabler
  is not availble. :-)  (Or Don Baylor or Ron Hunt who would gladly
  take one on the hip for an RBI).

    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

 ---------------------------------------|--------------------------------|
  Bob Campbell                          |                                |

  Usenet  : ..!emory!uumind!overmind!bc |                                |

 ---------------------------------------|--------------------------------|

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Seth I Robs » Mon, 17 Feb 1992 20:27:02

Quote:

>    But if you are playing the percentages on offense, I don't see
>  how anyone could omit the highest all-time on-base percentage (Ted
>  Williams at .486) and the best slugging percentage by a mile
>  Babe Ruth at .690 w/Williams next at .634).

As far as I remember, there have been several players who slugged over
.700 in a full season.  Did Ruth slug .800 over a full season once?  I can't
remember.  Off the top of my head, others who slugged .700 were Ted Williams,
Rogers Hornsby, and possibly Jimmie Foxx, Chuck Klein, Stan Musiel, and also
highly probable is Lou Gehrig c. 1927.

As for OBP, didn't Ted Williams, who hit .406 in 1941, also draw 100+ walks
in about 450 AB?  That would make his OBP over .500, which truly boggles the
mind. :-)

Quote:
>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

True.  But let me try: Bill***ey, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Jack
Clements (my mistake, he's not in the HOF), Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Coch-
rane, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Smokey Burgess (had a few good years, at
least), and... uuuh... Bill Plummer? :-)

--

University of California, Santa Cruz
"There's something kind of EUUUUUUUGH about a kid that doesn't like
 to play baseball..."  -- Foghorn Leghorn.

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Roger Lust » Tue, 18 Feb 1992 00:45:50


Quote:


>>    But if you are playing the percentages on offense, I don't see
>>  how anyone could omit the highest all-time on-base percentage (Ted
>>  Williams at .486) and the best slugging percentage by a mile
>>  Babe Ruth at .690 w/Williams next at .634).

>As far as I remember, there have been several players who slugged over
>.700 in a full season.  Did Ruth slug .800 over a full season once?  I can't
>remember.

Close.  He did it twice--in 1920 and 1921.  .847 and .846.

Quote:
> Off the top of my head, others who slugged .700 were Ted Williams,
>Rogers Hornsby, and possibly Jimmie Foxx, Chuck Klein, Stan Musiel, and also
>highly probable is Lou Gehrig c. 1927.

There have been 23 seasons with SLG >= .700.

Ruth (9 times -- and people bench him for Clemente!!!)
Gehrig (three times: 27, 30, 34)
Foxx (three times: 32, 33, 38)
Hornsby (twice)
Williams (twice)
Hack Wilson, Al Simmons, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial.  That's 23 total.
Only Musial, Mantle, and one of Williams' years were post-WWII.

Chronologically, Ruth has three of the first 4, 4 of the first 6.  He
revolutionized baseball.  

Quote:
>As for OBP, didn't Ted Williams, who hit .406 in 1941, also draw 100+ walks
>in about 450 AB?  That would make his OBP over .500, which truly boggles the
>mind. :-)

Over .550, which is about 2.3 boggles...that's the best season ever.
But there are 15 seasons >= .500 OBP.
Williams (3 times)
Ruth (5 times--.545 tops in 1923; in 1920 it was .530)
Mantle (1957)
Hornsby (1924)
McGraw, Hamilton, Kelley, Duffy, Delahanty.

Now, look at OPS:
Ruth holds 6 of the top 8 spots, 8 of the top 14.  (Williams is #4 and
6; Hornsby 9 and 13, Gehrig 10, Foxx 12.)  Adjust for league evels and
he's 9 of the top 13 -- and two of the  other four are pre-1893!
(Mantle and WIlliams each get a guest shot, too.)

Nobody hit like Babe Ruth.  Not even close.

Quote:
>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.
>True.  But let me try: Bill***ey, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Jack
>Clements (my mistake, he's not in the HOF), Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Coch-
>rane, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Smokey Burgess (had a few good years, at
>least), and... uuuh... Bill Plummer? :-)

Carlton Fisk is perhaps chopped liver?  Gary Carter likewise?  Ernie
Lombardi swung a mean bat, too.  And even BIll Freehan could hit a
little.  And have we forgotten Munson entirely?

Roger

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by lawrence.w.zuraws » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 00:36:13

Quote:
> .700 in a full season.  Did Ruth slug .800 over a full season once?  I can't

Ruth did it twice - 1920 and 1921.  In the .840s both times.  Unreal.
Quote:

> >    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
> >  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

> True.  But let me try: Bill***ey, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Jack
> Clements (my mistake, he's not in the HOF), Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Coch-
> rane, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Smokey Burgess (had a few good years, at
> least), and... uuuh... Bill Plummer? :-)

Ernie Lombardi, Buck Ewing, Pudge, Gary Carter.  Bill Freehan wasn't bad.

Speaking of catchers, I nominate Steve Swisher as worst player ever
named to the All-Star team (sometime around 1976).

Larry Zurawski

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by David M Ta » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 00:44:33

Dr. Dave's 2 cents' worth...

Peak value:

        C       Roy Campanella
        1B      Lou Gehrig
        2B      Rogers Hornsby (attitude and all)
        SS      Honus Wagner
        3B      Mike Schmidt
        LF      Ted Williams
        CF      Mickey Mantle
        RF      Ty Cobb
        DH      Babe Ruth

        RHP     Walter Johnson
        RHP     Bob Gibson
        RHP     Roger Clemens

        LHP     Lefty Grove
        LHP     Sandy Koufax

        RP      Bruce Sutter
        RP      Dennis Eckersley

Career value:

        C       Gary Carter (honest)
        1B      Stan Musial
        2B      Eddie Collins
        SS      Honus Wagner
        3B      Mike Schmidt
        LF      Ted Williams
        CF      Willie Mays
        RF      Ty Cobb
        DH      Babe Ruth

        RHP     Walter Johnson
        RHP     Christy Mathewson
        RHP     Pete Alexander

        LHP     Lefty Grove
        LHP     Warren Spahn (was a lefty, no?)

        RP      Rollie Fingers
        RP      Dan Quisenberry

--
          David M. Tate            | "My son was dating a *demon*?"

I was of three minds / Like a tree |    lot worse his freshman year."
in which there are three blackbirds|            --Roger Zelazny

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by David M Ta » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 00:49:51


Quote:


>>    But if you are playing the percentages on offense, I don't see
>>  how anyone could omit the highest all-time on-base percentage (Ted
>>  Williams at .486) and the best slugging percentage by a mile
>>  Babe Ruth at .690 w/Williams next at .634).

>As far as I remember, there have been several players who slugged over
>.700 in a full season.  Did Ruth slug .800 over a full season once?  

He meant *career* slugging percentage.  There have only been seven or eight
players to ever have even one full season with SLG as high as Ruth's career
SLG of .690.  Now *that* boggles the mind.

(Pop quiz: who was the last player to have an SLG > .690, with enough plate
appearances to qualify for the batting title?  No peeking, now...)

Quote:
>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

Gary Carter, Johnny Bench, Thurmon Munson, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill
***ey, Mickey Cochrane, Ernie Lombardi.  That's eight.  If you'll allow
Gabby Hartnett and Elston Howard, we've got it.  Othwise, we'll have to give
Tettleton a few more years :^).

--
          David M. Tate            | "My son was dating a *demon*?"

I was of three minds / Like a tree |    lot worse his freshman year."
in which there are three blackbirds|            --Roger Zelazny

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Jerry Eat » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 01:49:41


Quote:


>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

>True.  But let me try: Bill***ey, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Jack
>Clements (my mistake, he's not in the HOF), Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Coch-
>rane, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Smokey Burgess (had a few good years, at
>least), and... uuuh... Bill Plummer? :-)

Seth, uuh...L. P. Berra? Give that man a White Owl cigar and a Ballantine!

Jerry Eaton

--
--
           Jerry Eaton

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Monty Norwo » Tue, 18 Feb 1992 23:18:08


Quote:



 <stuff deleted>

Quote:
>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

>True.  But let me try: Bill***ey, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Jack
>Clements (my mistake, he's not in the HOF), Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Coch-
>rane, Johnny Bench, Ted Simmons, Smokey Burgess (had a few good years, at
>least), and... uuuh... Bill Plummer? :-)

Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella. Ernie Lombardi. Bill Freehan in the 60's.
Bench and Simmons. Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Cochrane, Bill***ey, and maybe
Manny Sanguillen (although he walked not at all if I recall). Gary Carter
deserves mention as does Elston Howard. I can't remeber if Tom Haller had
the longevity to really be considered but I vaguely remember a good season or
two (I guess if we include him then people like Lance Parrish should be
considered, too and maybe Earl Battey or Johnny Roseboro).

Oh. Roger Bresnahan had some good numbers way back when (I think).

So realistically, a top ten might be (more or less alphabetically):

Bench, Berra, Bresnahan, Campanella, Carter, Cochrane,***ey, Freehan,
Hartnett,  Lombardi and Simmons. (ok, that's 11, delete either Bresnahan
or Freehan).

Part of the problem is that Catcher's rarely have the longevity to put up
the kind of career numbers to make the HOF or be household names among fans.
I bet there are a lot more guys who had 3-5 peak seasons and not much else.
This one may be quite fun to go poking around in the MacMillan...

Monty
Simmons.

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Bob Donalds » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 02:26:32


Quote:

> >>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
> >>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

> Gary Carter, Johnny Bench, Thurmon Munson, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Bill
>***ey, Mickey Cochrane, Ernie Lombardi.  That's eight.  If you'll allow
> Gabby Hartnett and Elston Howard, we've got it.  Othwise, we'll have to give
> Tettleton a few more years :^).

The top five are fine, but how about Bull Freehan?  He certainly is
in the top 10, and probably higher than 10th.  Then, of course, there
is always Gus Triandos who held the record for most homers in a season
by a catcher for a long time (33, I think).  And yes, Elston Howard
should count as a catcher.  That was his primary position during his
best offensive year (1961).  I think he also had more appearances there
than in the OF, but I could be wrong.

DISCLAIMER      All of the abovbe is from memory and based on my subjective
        evaluations which may or may not be based on any reasonable stats!

        :-)

-=-
These views are barely my own - I won't even share them with my employers,
so I doubt they share them with me.


 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by lawrence.w.zuraws » Wed, 19 Feb 1992 06:21:43

Quote:
> (Pop quiz: who was the last player to have an SLG > .690, with enough plate
> appearances to qualify for the batting title?  No peeking, now...)

        Williams, 1957
        Mantle, 1956
        Musial, 1948

Larry Zurawski

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Barry Medni » Thu, 20 Feb 1992 07:50:35

Quote:

>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

How great is "great"?  Pick your ten favorite:

Bill***ey                     Yogi Berra                 Mickey Cochrane
Ernie Lombardi                  Johnny Bench               Carlton Fisk
Roger Bresnahan                 Gary Carter                Wilbert Robinson
Buck Ewing                      Johnny Kling               Ray Schalk
Elston Howard                   Gabby Hartnett             King Kelly
Thurmon Munson                  Del Crandell               Roy Campanella
Joe Torre                       John Roseboro              Gene Tenace
Earl Battey                     Ted Simmons

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Martin Whi » Fri, 21 Feb 1992 00:30:43

Quote:


>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

>How great is "great"?  Pick your ten favorite:

>Bill***ey                     Yogi Berra                 Mickey Cochrane
>Ernie Lombardi                  Johnny Bench               Carlton Fisk
>Roger Bresnahan                 Gary Carter                Wilbert Robinson
>Buck Ewing                      Johnny Kling               Ray Schalk
>Elston Howard                   Gabby Hartnett             King Kelly
>Thurmon Munson                  Del Crandell               Roy Campanella
>Joe Torre                       John Roseboro              Gene Tenace
>Earl Battey                     Ted Simmons

Gene Tenace???  If it was not for the '74 series (which was by far the
best stretch of baseball he *ever* played), no one would even remember
Tenace.  He was mediocre at best, and does not deserve to be included on
this list of greats.

He's a good coach though...

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by John H. Ricke » Fri, 21 Feb 1992 03:02:54


Quote:
Mednick) writes:

> >    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
> >  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

> How great is "great"?  Pick your ten favorite:

> Bill***ey                     Yogi Berra                 Mickey Cochrane
> Ernie Lombardi                  Johnny Bench               Carlton Fisk
> Roger Bresnahan                 Gary Carter                Wilbert Robinson
> Buck Ewing                      Johnny Kling               Ray Schalk
> Elston Howard                   Gabby Hartnett             King Kelly
> Thurmon Munson                  Del Crandell               Roy Campanella
> Joe Torre                       John Roseboro              Gene Tenace
> Earl Battey                     Ted Simmons

Opinion alert:
How  about 'great' independent of position.
Would these guys offensive stats have been
considered 'great' for OF or 1b?
If not then I'd say they weren't 'great' offensive players.
I'd agree with the statement that there haven't been
10 catchers who were 'great' offensivly
(whether or not such a statement has been made).

seeing, hearing
john rickert

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Roger Lust » Fri, 21 Feb 1992 01:12:43


Quote:


>>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

>>How great is "great"?  Pick your ten favorite:

>>Bill***ey                     Yogi Berra                 Mickey Cochrane
>>Ernie Lombardi                  Johnny Bench               Carlton Fisk
>>Roger Bresnahan                 Gary Carter                Wilbert Robinson
>>Buck Ewing                      Johnny Kling               Ray Schalk
>>Elston Howard                   Gabby Hartnett             King Kelly
>>Thurmon Munson                  Del Crandell               Roy Campanella
>>Joe Torre                       John Roseboro              Gene Tenace
>>Earl Battey                     Ted Simmons

>Gene Tenace???  If it was not for the '74 series (which was by far the
>best stretch of baseball he *ever* played), no one would even remember
>Tenace.  He was mediocre at best, and does not deserve to be included on
>this list of greats.

As a hitter?  Better check again.  Anyone who had a lifetime .391 OBA is
worth consideration, especially when he also hit 200 homers.  His stats
are, if anything, deflated by the parks he played in (OAK and SD,
mainly); here is his prime, 1973-79:

G   AB   R   H   2B   3B   HR   RBI  BB
148 459 67 111   18    2   22   71  107

BA   OBP  SLG  OPS
242  382  434  816

Not bad for a catcher in lousy hitters' parks!  Of course, his most
outstanding asset was his ability to draw walks (which he did *less* of
during his prime than before or after; in 1980 he had 316 AB and 92
BB!!); and the triple-crown stats don't show that very clearly.

My candidate for removal from the list would be Earl Battey...only 3 or
4 years at the plate that were worth anything at all...Actually, Elston
Howard was a real lead weight before and after 1961-4; and Uncle Robby
was not a good hitter by any stretch of the imagination.

But Gene Tenace was a substantial part of the Mustache Crew's offense!

Roger

 
 
 

All-time Team

Post by Gerald R Hob » Fri, 21 Feb 1992 06:47:09

Quote:
>>>    It's also interesting to note that it's hard to come up with 10
>>>  great offensive catchers in all the history of the game.

>>How great is "great"?  Pick your ten favorite:

>>Bill***ey                     Yogi Berra                 Mickey Cochrane
>>Ernie Lombardi                  Johnny Bench               Carlton Fisk
>>Roger Bresnahan                 Gary Carter                Wilbert Robinson
>>Buck Ewing                      Johnny Kling               Ray Schalk
>>Elston Howard                   Gabby Hartnett             King Kelly
>>Thurmon Munson                  Del Crandell               Roy Campanella
>>Joe Torre                       John Roseboro              Gene Tenace
>>Earl Battey                     Ted Simmons

>Gene Tenace???  If it was not for the '74 series (which was by far the
>best stretch of baseball he *ever* played), no one would even remember
>Tenace.  He was mediocre at best, and does not deserve to be included on
>this list of greats.

[Rogers addition]
As a hitter?  Better check again.  Anyone who had a lifetime .391 OBA is
worth consideration, especially when he also hit 200 homers.  His stats
are, if anything, deflated by the parks he played in (OAK and SD,
mainly); here is his prime, 1973-79:

G   AB   R   H   2B   3B   HR   RBI  BB
148 459 67 111   18    2   22   71  107

BA   OBP  SLG  OPS
242  382  434  816

Not bad for a catcher in lousy hitters' parks!  Of course, his most
outstanding asset was his ability to draw walks (which he did *less* of
during his prime than before or after; in 1980 he had 316 AB and 92
BB!!); and the triple-crown stats don't show that very clearly.

My candidate for removal from the list would be Earl Battey...only 3 or
4 years at the plate that were worth anything at all...Actually, Elston
Howard was a real lead weight before and after 1961-4; and Uncle Robby
was not a good hitter by any stretch of the imagination.

[My candidate for deletion]
John Roseboro was not a very good hitter. He was somewhat erratic as I
recall it. After the famous Juan Marichal incident one of the LA
scribes suggested that it would have been better if Roseboro had
been swinging the bat at Marichal since no one could get hurt that way.
                   Gerry