Minnie Minoso

Minnie Minoso

Post by The Happy Camp » Sat, 29 Sep 1990 04:05:13


According to the latest information I have, the commish of baseball has decided
that Minnie Minoso will not be allowed to play for the White Sox this season.
Minoso was attempting to lengthen his own "most-decades-played-in" record, by
playing in every decade from the 40's thru the 90's.  

I think the commissioner's office is a little off-base on this.  Combining
Minoso with the last game in historic Comiskey park would have been a great
moment.  The Sox have had a fantastic year, came up a little short, and this
would be a great promotion.  What is the rationale for this? The term
"party-pooper" comes to mind.

BTW, What do you think Bill Veeck would have done if the commish told HIM that
Minoso couldn't play?

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Minnie Minoso

Post by David M Ta » Sat, 29 Sep 1990 06:15:26


Quote:

>I think the commissioner's office is a little off-base on this.  Combining
>Minoso with the last game in historic Comiskey park would have been a great
>moment.

No, it would have been a joke.  It would have been the last step in the "This
isn't a sport, it's entertainment" slide.  It would have been confirmation by
the commissioner's office that individual records are more important than the
integrity of the game.  

The entire value of individual records is that they were achieved while
playing major-league baseball.  Hitting 66 HR in the minors is an oddity,
not an historic accomplishment.  The difference is entirely due to the fact
that MLB is what it is, and minor league baseball isn't.  When we start
fudging what MLB is, just to create funny records, then this distinction (and
many others) go away.

By this same logic, I don't accept Pete Rose's hit record as particularly
valid.  He used his special position (player/manager) to extend his career
far beyond its "real" baseball lifespan (i.e. how long he could have kept
playing if he weren't coaching himself and chasing a record), to the detriment
of his team and the game as a whole.  Why do you want to encourage this sort
of behavior?  (Yeah, yeah, I know it's only for one at bat or something, but
why make a mockery of the game?).

--
        David M. Tate        | What the hell does "30% chance of rain" mean?

 "A Man for all Seasonings"  |                        --Lawrence Block

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Russ Smi » Sat, 29 Sep 1990 07:05:06


**** Valid stuff about Minnie Minoso deleted*
Quote:
>By this same logic, I don't accept Pete Rose's hit record as particularly
>valid.  He used his special position (player/manager) to extend his career
>far beyond its "real" baseball lifespan (i.e. how long he could have kept
>playing if he weren't coaching himself and chasing a record), to the detriment
>of his team and the game as a whole.  Why do you want to encourage this sort
>of behavior?  (Yeah, yeah, I know it's only for one at bat or something, but
>why make a mockery of the game?).

At last I fomebody who agrees with me about Rose. I have always resented the
fact that people credit Rose with "handling" Eric Davis early struggles
(in his first year) so well. Rose caused Davis to struggle. Rose had himself
and buddy Perez at first when Cedeno should have been there. That put Cedeno i
in left and with Parker in right, Davis as the centerfielder and only guy in
the lineup with wheels had to bat leadoff. Try batting Strawberry in the
leadoff spot and watch him fall apart(at that age I mean). Davis was so
confused trying to be a leadoff hitter that he went back to AAA and had to
regain his confidence before coming back with a bang. Any other manager
would have had Cesar at first with Milner and Redus platooning in left and
batting leadoff. Rose of course needed a fast leadoff hitter so he could
bat behind him and get more fastballs. I always thought that Rose was given
the job so that the attendance would improve, but they sacrificed some good
years because Rose misused the talent. I'll never forgive Rose for taking
Mario Soto and ruining his arm(along with Jim Kaat) by making him throw
a slider even though Mario said that it hurt his arm to throw it. Kaat
was the pitching coach but Rose was the manager and should have listened
to Soto. Oh well off my soapbox, I think Vicent made a great call on Minoso.

Quote:
>--
>        David M. Tate        | What the hell does "30% chance of rain" mean?

> "A Man for all Seasonings"  |                            --Lawrence Block

"Are you on a scavenger hunt or did I just forget to pay my bill?"
"I'd be happy to pay it"
                          -Chevy Chase in Fletch

Russ Smith

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by jbs21.. » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 02:52:00

I disagree with some of the points that Dr. Dave makes in his defense of the
Minoso lockout.  I hate to point this out, but sport IS entertainment.  Fur-
thermore, we're specifically dealing with one game that means nothing for
posterity, yet will be one of the most emotional and enjoyable games of all
time.  If the decades record thing hadn't come up, would anybody deny the Sox
right to "commemorate", celebrate, or otherwise emphasize the sentimental
side of the game by bringing back a great player from the past?  I also think
that Fay is way out of line - it's the Sox's decision to make.  If his office
allows Marc Sullivan to wear a big-league uniform, for Chrissake, then it's
pretty hypocritical to ban Minnie, who can probably hit better NOW than Marc
ever did.

                                                Joe Sterbenc
                                                U of Illinois

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Robert B Dav » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 00:57:03

Quote:
(The Happy Camper) writes:
>According to the latest information I have, the commish of baseball has decided
>that Minnie Minoso will not be allowed to play for the White Sox this season.
>I think the commissioner's office is a little off-base on this.

I guess I am a party-pooper too, but to me the big concern would be
possible injury.  Minoso is what, about 68?  I'd be worried about a
ball getting away from a pitcher and Minnie not being quick enough to
duck.

I'll avoid "integrity of the game" arguments, 'cause they often are
used to argue against things which I don't necessarily oppose, and
because the game should be what we want it to be.  But I will say
that what I don't want it to be is a 68-year old man making a clown
(or a badly injured clown) out of himself.

Bob Davis                    Zane Smith for MVP

PS - In case you were wondering, Minoso is one of my favorite all-time
players.  So it is nothing against him or the White Sox.  I'd feel
similarly if it were Ted Williams, Willie Mays, or whoever.

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Robert B Dav » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 02:19:16

Quote:
(David M Tate) writes:
>By this same logic, I don't accept Pete Rose's hit record as particularly
>valid.  He used his special position (player/manager) to extend his career
>far beyond its "real" baseball lifespan (i.e. how long he could have kept
>playing if he weren't coaching himself and chasing a record), to the detriment
>of his team and the game as a whole.  

I agree that Pete Rose is a shameless individual.  I agree that any
other manager would have benched/released Rose two or three years
before his career actually ended.  Further, I believe that Rose
ruined a potentially great career (Gary Redus) and probably
damaged several other players (Nick Esasky and Eddie Milner come
to mind) by selfishly playing himself.

However - this does not alter the fact that Rose collected each and
every one of those hits.  Suppose manager X is hung up on pitcher Y,
even though most of us would agree that pitcher Y is pathetic.  Y
manages to win several games before reason finally prevails.  Should
those wins not be counted?  After all, only poor front office/
management gave him the chance to collect them.  Should the homers
that opponents hit off Y be marked with an asterisk?  Should a
player not receive credit for any run he drives in against an
opponent who has put in a position player to pitch in late innings
of a blowout?

I realize the situation is somewhat different, because Rose is both
manager X and player Y.  But that doesn't alter the fact that he
collected more hits than any other player in the game.

Quote:
>Why do you want to encourage this sort of behavior?

I don't.  I don't condone what Rose did by any means, and would
certainly not make an argument that he is "greater" than Ty Cobb.
But the number of hits he collected is, regardless of how he
collected them, "greater" than the number Ty Cobb got.

Bob Davis                 Zane Smith for MVP

Geez, I can't believe I am defending Pete Rose!

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Blair P. Hought » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 02:59:06


[...on Minoso at Comiskey...]

Quote:
>No, it would have been a joke.  It would have been the last step in the "This
>isn't a sport, it's entertainment" slide.

>The entire value of individual records is that they were achieved while
>playing major-league baseball.  Hitting 66 HR in the minors is an oddity,
>not an historic accomplishment.  The difference is entirely due to the fact
>that MLB is what it is, and minor league baseball isn't.  When we start
>fudging what MLB is, just to create funny records, then this distinction (and
>many others) go away.

I think you have the distinction backwards.  MLB, like any other
major-league "sport," is the entertainment (it ain't called "The Show"
for nothing).

Minor-league baseball, being an arena for athletes to compare their
skills for the purpose of attaining a goal, is the sport.

                                --Blair
                                  "Hanging around outside the ballpark
                                   to shag homers is a sport.  Hanging
                                   around inside the ballpark to hit
                                   them in front of 47,000 people who
                                   paid $12 each to see it is not."

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Randy Peppl » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 04:56:14


Quote:

>Greg Gumbel interviewed Minoso and Al Lopez Thursday morning live
>from Comiskey.  It was on one of those morning shows. Minoso was
>asked about the commissioner's decision and he (Minoso) seemed to
>accept it without any problems.  He said of the commissioner  "He's
>the boss ..."

        The "Senior" must be getting up there!  Ah, for the good old
        days in Chicago, when, as the Tribune put it, "Comiskey Park
        was the place to be" (not that OTHER place), from 1951-1967...

--
_________________
| Randy Peppler |_____________
| Illinois State Water Survey|  Quaffing Bud in St. Louis:  "to drink deeply

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Roger Lust » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 07:02:39


Quote:

>>I think the commissioner's office is a little off-base on this.  Combining
>>Minoso with the last game in historic Comiskey park would have been a great
>>moment.
>No, it would have been a joke.  It would have been the last step in the "This
>isn't a sport, it's entertainment" slide.  It would have been confirmation by
>the commissioner's office that individual records are more important than the
>integrity of the game.  

Uh, WHAT integrity of the game?  The one with fairness, umpires, three
outs and nine innings?  Nobody's trying to compromise that.  

But the Sox are eliminated.  Having Minoso bat would only offend stats
freaks; the game would go about as planned otherwise.  The game is
played ONLY for entertainment; that's why it's played at all, once the
pennant race is done.

There is certainly precedent for this: Minoso's appearances in 76 and
80.  Before that, there was Nick Altrock.

Quote:
>The entire value of individual records is that they were achieved while
>playing major-league baseball.  Hitting 66 HR in the minors is an oddity,
>not an historic accomplishment.  The difference is entirely due to the fact
>that MLB is what it is, and minor league baseball isn't.  When we start
>fudging what MLB is, just to create funny records, then this distinction (and
>many others) go away.

Well, who CARES about the record for most decades played in?  MLB is a
lot of things.  There have been far worse pollutions of the game.  The
KC A's were partly a Yankee farm club in their first decade of
existence.  The NL expansion draft of 62 created impossibly weak teams.
  Weak teams biased records, as did weird parks.  Late-season games have
always had their share of weirdness.  Just read some baseball history.

Quote:
>By this same logic, I don't accept Pete Rose's hit record as particularly
>valid.  He used his special position (player/manager) to extend his career
>far beyond its "real" baseball lifespan (i.e. how long he could have kept
>playing if he weren't coaching himself and chasing a record), to the detriment
>of his team and the game as a whole.  Why do you want to encourage this sort
>of behavior?  (Yeah, yeah, I know it's only for one at bat or something, but
>why make a mockery of the game?).

When you consider the players baseball has had in the past, keeping Pete
Rose on the roster as long as he stayed is nothing at all out of the
ordinary.  Ty Cobb hung on for two years himself, with the A's, after
leaving Detroit.  He had Tris Speaker as a teammate, doing the same
thing.  By then, they were VERY slow out in the OF.

Pete Rose had been a star entertainer for a long time; he continued to
be up to the end.  His record is no better and no worse than Cobb's had
been; a career is a career.  To tell the two players apart, we have
batting average.  60 points worth.

Heck, Rose got to play in 8 more games every year of his career, due to
schedule.  That's the record right there.  Do we put in a footnote?

Baseball is far too much fun to worry about admissibility standards for
players, records, etc.  Down in front!

Roger

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Jeffrey Lawrence Haferm » Sun, 30 Sep 1990 03:46:13

Greg Gumbel interviewed Minoso and Al Lopez Thursday morning live
from Comiskey.  It was on one of those morning shows. Minoso was
asked about the commissioner's decision and he (Minoso) seemed to
accept it without any problems.  He said of the commissioner  "He's
the boss ..."


Department of Mechanical Engineering
University of Iowa
Iowa City IA  52240

 
 
 

Minnie Minoso

Post by Gerald J. Lan » Wed, 03 Oct 1990 02:50:51

Quote:
>>I think the commissioner's office is a little off-base on this.  Combining
>>Minoso with the last game in historic Comiskey park would have been a great
>>moment.

>No, it would have been a joke.  It would have been the last step in the "This
>isn't a sport, it's entertainment" slide.  It would have been confirmation by
>the commissioner's office that individual records are more important than the
>integrity of the game.  

        I agree with the commissioner's decision on this matter, but for a
different reason. Could a 66(?) year old batter get out of the way of an
inadvertent wild pitch ? Think of the consequences of Minnie duplicating
one of his favorite ploys, ie., taking one for the team.