Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Spinhea » Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:23:42


Rider isnt getting many minutes. The Lakers are making a minimal effort
to work him into the offense/team. Rider is going to have trouble fitting
into the team without more minutes.  Yes he was late a few times. So? I
wonder what Phil's justification is for keeping Rider's minutes so low.
Seems like Rider has been trying very hard to be upbeat and positive.

Meanwhile, Kobe has been going absolutely crazy, and I'm afraid, once
again poisoning Laker chemistry. But Kobe still gets to keep taking all
the shots and gets the major minutes.

Now I ask you, who has been more disruptive to the Lakers, Rider or Kobe?
I'd go so far to say that if the Lakers had started Rider and benched
Kobe, they wouldnt have lost 4 of their lost 5. I'd bet 1000 bucks on
that.

Rider needs more minutes; he's not a player who can thrive on 10-15
minutes per night. Phil should spend more time disciplining Kobe than
penalizing Rider for comparatively trivial transgressions (relative to
Kobe). The next time Kobe hogs the ball give his minutes to Rider. That
will quickly take Kobe out of the scoring title race and hopefully bring
him to his senses.

Spinhead

--
"Iverson has bought into the 'make the other guys around me better'
philosophy" --Why Fred Hickman thinks Allen "leads the league in chucks
per game" Iverson is MVP.

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Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by s_knig.. » Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:44:40



Quote:
> Rider isnt getting many minutes. The Lakers are making a minimal
effort
> to work him into the offense/team. Rider is going to have trouble
fitting
> into the team without more minutes.  Yes he was late a few times. So?
I
> wonder what Phil's justification is for keeping Rider's minutes so
low.
> Seems like Rider has been trying very hard to be upbeat and positive.

Well I agree about Rider. He should be getting more minutes. Phil's
excuse is that Rider doesn't know the offense yet.

Quote:
> Meanwhile, Kobe has been going absolutely crazy, and I'm afraid, once
> again poisoning Laker chemistry. But Kobe still gets to keep taking
all
> the shots and gets the major minutes.

> Now I ask you, who has been more disruptive to the Lakers, Rider or
Kobe?
> I'd go so far to say that if the Lakers had started Rider and benched
> Kobe, they wouldnt have lost 4 of their lost 5. I'd bet 1000 bucks on
> that.

Well, you can blame Kobe for the losses to Milwaukee and Seattle,
although Shaq's 0-11 against Seattle also played a little part in the
loss, but the other 2 losses, were not Kobe's fault. As badly as Kobe
played against Milwaukee, the Bucks made their run when Kobe was on the
bench. The lakers began the 4th quarter leading by 5. The bucks
outscored the lakers by 8 with Kobe on the bench. The laker retook the
lead after Kobe went back in the game, at least temporarily until the
Bucks got hot and Kobe started bricking shots. As for the Portland
game, I already went into detail in my other post. Kobe made a
conscious effort to get the ball into Shaq in the first quarter, and
Kobe only took 2 shots in the first 11 minutes of the game. Of course,
the blazers took almost a double digit lead because of it. Like I said,
Shaq is simply not his dominating self this season. He's playing
injured. He started off the season great, although the lakers didn't
exactly play very well in the beginning of the season. After the 2nd
half of the Houston game which they lost earlier in the year, Shaq
hasn't been the same player since. During that 3 game stretch, Shaq
shot 19-46, 41%. It was later revealed that Shaq was injured. Nothing's
really been said of his injury lately but considering how he's been
playing, you gotta believe he's still not 100%. His fg% and ft% are at
their lowest points of his entire career.

Quote:
> Rider needs more minutes; he's not a player who can thrive on 10-15
> minutes per night. Phil should spend more time disciplining Kobe than
> penalizing Rider for comparatively trivial transgressions (relative to
> Kobe). The next time Kobe hogs the ball give his minutes to Rider.
That
> will quickly take Kobe out of the scoring title race and hopefully
bring
> him to his senses.

Sure, he sat him against Milwaukee, and lost 8 points because of it.
Kobe was already taking less shots yesterday. Only 2 shots in the first
11 minutes. Only after the lakers fell behind did he start shooting it.
And if it weren't for the garbage time at the end of the game, he
probably would have finished with about 20 fga which is alot less than
the 31 he put up against Milwaukee. As for Rider, yeah I agree, he
needs more playing time. However, Rider isn't even the first guard off
the bench nor is he the 2nd. If Kobe goes out for a breather, Phil
often uses Penberthy or Shaw to replace him. Right now Rider is the odd
man out. And that's unfortunate.

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Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Spinhea » Sat, 16 Dec 2000 06:45:18

Quote:

> Well I agree about Rider. He should be getting more minutes. Phil's
> excuse is that Rider doesn't know the offense yet.

I dont buy it. He's willing to let Penberthy learn under fire, but not
Rider? He supposedly justified leaving Penberthy in against Stoudamire
because he wants Penberthy to be ready for Stoudamire in the playoffs? If
he can sacrifice a game for such a goal, I think he can also give Rider
some major minutes and just ride through the resulting rough stretch.  He
did that at the beginning of last season with Kobe, and he's doing it
again with Kobe now.

Quote:

> Well, you can blame Kobe for the losses to Milwaukee and Seattle,

It goes beyond Kobe's performance in any one game. Even if Kobe hits 50%
in a game, its still disruptive to the team if he's taking too many
shots, or not taking them in the context of the offense, or not working
with his teammates. If Kobe's teammates are getting fed up with him (yet
again) and I suggest they are, this has far reaching effects...team
chemistry..team defense..attitude etc etc etc.

Quote:
> although Shaq's 0-11 against Seattle also played a little part in the

Shaq has been hurt but is still the most *** player in the game,
though he isnt putting up last years numbers just yet.  Possibly this is
due to injuries, possibly its due to his decision to shoot less and get
his teammates involved more, possibly its due to bad team chemistry--
being pissed at chemistry, griping at each other etc, which makes it hard
to operate at a peak level.

Kobe can score 51 points and the Lakers can still lose. Its not about
Kobe scoring points, its about the Lakers playing as an unselfish team.
You seem to be hung up on scoring only..ie if Kobe scores lots of points
at 45%-50% FG% then everything is okay.

 Right now Rider is the odd

Quote:
> man out. And that's unfortunate.

I agree. Unless Rider is being disruptive in the locker room, showing up
smelling of weed etc, Phil should give him some major minutes and let
Rider show us all how he can or can't help the Lakers.

Spinhead
--
"Iverson has bought into the 'make the other guys around me better'
philosophy" --Why Fred Hickman thinks Allen "leads the league in chucks
per game" Iverson is MVP.

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Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Ben Johnso » Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:55:32



Quote:

>> Well I agree about Rider. He should be getting more minutes. Phil's
>> excuse is that Rider doesn't know the offense yet.

>I dont buy it. He's willing to let Penberthy learn under fire, but not
>Rider? He supposedly justified leaving Penberthy in against Stoudamire
>because he wants Penberthy to be ready for Stoudamire in the playoffs? If
>he can sacrifice a game for such a goal, I think he can also give Rider
>some major minutes and just ride through the resulting rough stretch.  He
>did that at the beginning of last season with Kobe, and he's doing it
>again with Kobe now.

Jackson basically needs to stop his ridiculous mind games.  

Quote:

>> Well, you can blame Kobe for the losses to Milwaukee and Seattle,

>It goes beyond Kobe's performance in any one game. Even if Kobe hits 50%
>in a game, its still disruptive to the team if he's taking too many
>shots, or not taking them in the context of the offense, or not working
>with his teammates. If Kobe's teammates are getting fed up with him (yet
>again) and I suggest they are, this has far reaching effects...team
>chemistry..team defense..attitude etc etc etc.

Actually, you were saying basically the same thing last season, yet
last seasons team had extended win streaks as opposed to this year's
team struggling a quarter of a way into the season.  Basically, the
difference is Shaq and maybe perhaps lack of a legitimate outside
threat.  It seems to me that Kobe hasn't increased nor decreased his
unteamlike behavior on the court.  

Quote:

>> although Shaq's 0-11 against Seattle also played a little part in the

>Shaq has been hurt but is still the most *** player in the game,
>though he isnt putting up last years numbers just yet.  

Not only that, he's not punishing them on the defense end.

Quote:
>Possibly this is
>due to injuries, possibly its due to his decision to shoot less and get
>his teammates involved more, possibly its due to bad team chemistry--
>being pissed at chemistry, griping at each other etc, which makes it hard
>to operate at a peak level.

IIRC, you said exactly the same thing last season during their win
streaks.  

Quote:

>Kobe can score 51 points and the Lakers can still lose. Its not about
>Kobe scoring points, its about the Lakers playing as an unselfish team.
>You seem to be hung up on scoring only..ie if Kobe scores lots of points
>at 45%-50% FG% then everything is okay.

> Right now Rider is the odd
>> man out. And that's unfortunate.

>I agree. Unless Rider is being disruptive in the locker room, showing up
>smelling of weed etc, Phil should give him some major minutes and let
>Rider show us all how he can or can't help the Lakers.

Fat chance.  Jackson will be too busy trying out his latest zen
exercise.

Ben Johnson

Quote:

>Spinhead

 
 
 

Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Spinhea » Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:38:03


Getting tired of the politics Ben?

Quote:
> Actually, you were saying basically the same thing last season, yet
> last seasons team had extended win streaks as opposed to this year's
> team struggling a quarter of a way into the season.

Actually I was saying that Kobe needed to clean up his act, before he
cleaned up his act.  The Lakers didnt have any big win streaks PRIOR to
Kobe settling down last year. It was only after he 'turned a new leaf'
that the Lakers went on their streaks.  Remember Toronto last year when
he got in the one on one duel with Carter, and Jackson pulled him aside
afterwards at the airport? Remember Bozo writting his tearful "plea to
Kobe" in asbnll?  Kobe in the last half of last season for the first time
showed sustained teamplay. This season he has clearly reverted to the old
Kobe. His own coach speculated he doesnt want to help Rider because it
might decrease his own shots. Thats pretty damning.

Quote:
> Basically, the
> difference is Shaq and maybe perhaps lack of a legitimate outside
> threat.  It seems to me that Kobe hasn't increased nor decreased his
> unteamlike behavior on the court.

I dont agree. When the Laker went down the toilet the last few years they
had a TON of talent--probably the most talented team in the NBA. What was
wrong? Chemistry. I think the chemistry issue is hurting the Lakers more
than Shaq's many minor aches.

Spinhead
--
"Iverson has bought into the 'make the other guys around me better'
philosophy" --Why Fred Hickman thinks Allen "leads the league in chucks
per game" Iverson is MVP.

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http://www.deja.com/

 
 
 

Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by s_knig.. » Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:44:14



Quote:
> It goes beyond Kobe's performance in any one game. Even if Kobe hits
50%
> in a game, its still disruptive to the team if he's taking too many
> shots, or not taking them in the context of the offense, or not
working
> with his teammates. If Kobe's teammates are getting fed up with him
(yet
> again) and I suggest they are, this has far reaching effects...team
> chemistry..team defense..attitude etc etc etc.

Well, regardless what you think of how Shaq and Kobe are getting along,
Shaq did stick up for Kobe when Sabonis "helped" him to the ground.
Though Kobe's taking alot of shots this season, this year is kind of
different. In the past, he did alot of dribbing and one on one. He
really hasn't been doing that as much this season. Instead, he's been
doing alot of catching and shooting. So it's somewhat different this
year. The Bucks game for example, 10 of his 31 shots were 3pters. He's
also pulling up for more jumpers off fastbreaks ala Van Exel.

Quote:
> Shaq has been hurt but is still the most *** player in the game,
> though he isnt putting up last years numbers just yet.  Possibly this
is
> due to injuries, possibly its due to his decision to shoot less and
get
> his teammates involved more, possibly its due to bad team chemistry--
> being pissed at chemistry, griping at each other etc, which makes it
hard
> to operate at a peak level.

He's injured. Phil said it, that Shaq wasn't getting any lift in his
shots, that's why his shots are coming up short. When Shaq is missing 2
footers consistently, you can't blame that on chemistry.

Quote:
> Kobe can score 51 points and the Lakers can still lose. Its not about
> Kobe scoring points, its about the Lakers playing as an unselfish
team.
> You seem to be hung up on scoring only..ie if Kobe scores lots of
points
> at 45%-50% FG% then everything is okay.

The GS game was a unique situation. Of course if Jamison does't go
ballistic and score 51 himself, the lakers win that game. The lakers
were in control of that game until late when GS went on a run. The
thing is, the lakers were winning 11 out of 13 with Kobe scoring 30+. I
think Kobe's in a situation he's never been in before. Last year Kobe
wasn't shooting as much so when he had a bad game, it didn't hurt the
team as much. This year, he's been shooting more and because he and the
team were successful, at least for awhile, he didn't know how to react
when his shots weren't falling. He was basically used to shooting more,
and he continued even when they weren't falling, that's why they lost
to Seattle and Milwaukee. Also this year, the lakers only rely on 2
guys, Shaq and Kobe as opposed to the big 3 last season. If Shaq or
Kobe has a bad game, the lakers have a problem. Kobe plays poorly
against Milwaukee, Shaq plays poorly against Portland. They lose both.

If you look at when Kobe first started to shoot more, it was coincided
with Shaq's first horrible game of the season, which I think is when
Shaq was injured. Shaq averaged 34 points in the first 4 games of the
season. Then the Houston game came along. Shaq played well in the first
half, but missed almost every single shot he took in the 2nd half. He
ended up 8-19 for 24 points. Almost all of those misses were in the 2nd
half. Lakers lose that game. Kobe took only 16 shots in that game. The
next game against SA, Shaq once again continued the poor shooting, only
5-13. That's when Kobe's shot attempts really increased. And for the
rest of the season, his shots went up. I think he felt he had to pick
up the slack for Shaq who wasn't 100%. The next game after that, Shaq
was only 6-14. When has Shaq ever played 3 bad games in a row? I don't
ever recall that happening. You begin to wonder, what's wrong with
Shaq? They finally revealed that he was injured after that game. He
played better after that, but watching him on the floor, he wasn't the
same player. There's been 10 games this season where Shaq shot 50% or
less. That's not very Shaq-like.

Quote:
> I agree. Unless Rider is being disruptive in the locker room, showing
up
> smelling of weed etc, Phil should give him some major minutes and let
> Rider show us all how he can or can't help the Lakers.

Tonight, without Shaq, they could use his scoring. We'll see if Phil
uses him. Or maybe he'll do to Rider what he did to Rice in Game 3 of
last year's final when Kobe was hurt.

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Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Ben Johnso » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:51:37



Quote:

>Getting tired of the politics Ben?

I heard you were runnin' some sort of contest around here.  Stopped by
to check it out.

Quote:

>> Actually, you were saying basically the same thing last season, yet
>> last seasons team had extended win streaks as opposed to this year's
>> team struggling a quarter of a way into the season.

>Actually I was saying that Kobe needed to clean up his act, before he
>cleaned up his act.  The Lakers didnt have any big win streaks PRIOR to
>Kobe settling down last year. It was only after he 'turned a new leaf'
>that the Lakers went on their streaks.  Remember Toronto last year when
>he got in the one on one duel with Carter, and Jackson pulled him aside
>afterwards at the airport? Remember Bozo writting his tearful "plea to
>Kobe" in asbnll?  

Wrong.  They had a 7 game win streak in which Kobe played in 4 of
before that Toronto game.  Incidentally, the Lakers were 6 games into
their first 16 game winning streak when the Toronto incident occured.
The Lakers record up to the Toronto game was 20-5.  Strangely enough,
we are currently at about the same place that game took place last
year, and the current record is 16-9.  

So if Kobe is the real culprit, you'd expect it to show up in the
win/loss columns.  If Kobe had not yet 'turned a new leaf' up to the
Toronto game as you suggest, their record should be somewhat similar
to their record at this point in the season since Kobe has 'reverted
to his old ways'.  

Granted, the 20-5 record does not include Kobe playing in several of
the games, however, the Laker record since Kobe had returned was 9-1
the loss to SAC.  And this was before he turned a 'new leaf'.  

Quote:
>Kobe in the last half of last season for the first time
>showed sustained teamplay. This season he has clearly reverted to the old
>Kobe. His own coach speculated he doesnt want to help Rider because it
>might decrease his own shots. Thats pretty damning.

I agree that he showed better teamplay, especially the latter part of
last season, however, that is not to say that Kobe is the cause of
this year's situation.  

Quote:

>> Basically, the
>> difference is Shaq and maybe perhaps lack of a legitimate outside
>> threat.  It seems to me that Kobe hasn't increased nor decreased his
>> unteamlike behavior on the court.

>I dont agree. When the Laker went down the toilet the last few years they
>had a TON of talent--probably the most talented team in the NBA. What was
>wrong? Chemistry. I think the chemistry issue is hurting the Lakers more
>than Shaq's many minor aches.

Although I believe chemistry certainly played a role, I also believe
that although talented, their talent was wasted.  Most of the time,
the game plan seemed to be dump it into Shaq and if one of the
shooters is hot, give it to him, although Nick thought he was hot all
the time.  Unfortunately, the Lakers had no consistent outside game.
What changed last year was the fact that Kobe stepped up and became
very consistent while Rice filled in the holes.  As much as I loved
rooting for the old Harris teams they were stuck in a quagmire of
limited coaching ability, IMHO.

Ben Johnson

Quote:

>Spinhead

 
 
 

Jackson double standard: Rider vs Kobe

Post by Ben Johnso » Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:02:30

On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:51:37 -0800, Ben Johnson

Quote:

>Although I believe chemistry certainly played a role, I also believe
>that although talented, their talent was wasted.  Most of the time,
>the game plan seemed to be dump it into Shaq and if one of the
>shooters is hot, give it to him, although Nick thought he was hot all
>the time.  Unfortunately, the Lakers had no consistent outside game.
>What changed last year was the fact that Kobe stepped up and became
>very consistent while Rice filled in the holes.  As much as I loved
>rooting for the old Harris teams they were stuck in a quagmire of
>limited coaching ability, IMHO.

>Ben Johnson

Let me add that what Kobe did for the team last year was what we
wanted Eddie to be for so many years, a dymanic creative consistent 2
and sometimes 3 able to take it inside and hit from the perimeter as
well.    

Ben Johnson