Unfair All-star selections.

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by TJ Haz » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 01:34:00



|> >Offensively, he [Tettleton] pales in
|> >comparison to the firstbase and outfielders on the team.
|>

|> Nonsense.  He's having a much better season offensively than Ruben Sierra,
|> Kirby Puckett, Paul Molitor or Joe Carter.
|>
|

Let's check the numbers:
 BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0

GRIFFEY,KJR     SEA  .330  .410 312  69 103  16   3  32  66  40  50   7
BELLE,A         CLE  .377  .466 297  68 112  30   1  25  73  48  44   8
THOMAS,F        CHW  .377  .514 273  87 103  21   1  29  64  78  40   0
CLARK,W         TEX  .352  .448 281  56  99  22   2  12  71  49  42   3
O'NEILL,P       NYY  .365  .462 252  46  92  16   1  14  57  46  43   3
There's no doubt that Tettleton doesn't compare to these folks.

SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4
CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5
MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13
PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5
The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
he draws.  Big deal. If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,
but he doesn't have a stolen base this year.  Perhaps there's a reason Sierra, Carter,
and Puckett are all on  pace to get *60* more RBI's than Tettleton...they realize
the value of runs and take more of a chance at making an out in the hopes of
knocking in some runs.  As far as the other primary offensive categories (AVG,
Slugging perc., total extra bases, stolen bases, runs, etc.) all of these guys are
equal to or far superior to Tettleton in  every category.  

If you want to compare Tettleton to other catchers then YES, he is the best offensive
catcher amongst the offensively-lacking lot of catchers in the AL.  But you cannot say
his offensive value is even close to any of the firstba*** or outfielders on the
All-Star team.

TJ Hazen

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by David DeMe » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 02:41:06


|> |> >Offensively, he [Tettleton] pales in
|> |> >comparison to the firstbase and outfielders on the team.
|> |>

|> |> Nonsense.  He's having a much better season offensively than Ruben Sierra,
|> |> Kirby Puckett, Paul Molitor or Joe Carter.
|> |>
|> |
|>
|> Let's check the numbers:
|>  BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB  SLG
|> TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0  .527
|>
|> GRIFFEY,KJR     SEA  .330  .410 312  69 103  16   3  32  66  40  50   7  .708
|> BELLE,A         CLE  .377  .466 297  68 112  30   1  25  73  48  44   8  .737
|> THOMAS,F        CHW  .377  .514 273  87 103  21   1  29  64  78  40   0  .780  
|> CLARK,W         TEX  .352  .448 281  56  99  22   2  12  71  49  42   3  .573
|> O'NEILL,P       NYY  .365  .462 252  46  92  16   1  14  57  46  43   3  .603
|> There's no doubt that Tettleton doesn't compare to these folks.

ok so far, though he's close to Clark.

|>
|> SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4  .476
|> CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5  .502
|> MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13  .489
|> PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5  .514

|> The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
|> he draws.

Um, and power?

 Big deal. If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,
|> but he doesn't have a stolen base this year.

And stealing a base is not particularly valuable, either.

   Perhaps there's a reason Sierra, Carter,
|> and Puckett are all on  pace to get *60* more RBI's than Tettleton...they realize
|> the value of runs and take more of a chance at making an out in the hopes of
|> knocking in some runs.

As opposed to *not* making an out, so that your *team* can score more runs.
Perhaps the main reason is that they (1) have outstanding OBP teammates just
ahead of them in the lineup and (2) don't leave runners on when they're done,
so that their teammates following find it hard to get RBI...

  As far as the other primary offensive categories (AVG,
|> Slugging perc.

wrong here

, total extra bases, stolen bases, runs,

and here

 etc.) all of these guys are
|> equal to or far superior to Tettleton in  every category.  
|>
|> If you want to compare Tettleton to other catchers then YES, he is the best offensive
|> catcher amongst the offensively-lacking lot of catchers in the AL.  But you cannot say
|> his offensive value is even close to any of the firstba*** or outfielders on the
|> All-Star team.

Yes I can.  And I can defend it.  It's mindboggling that anyone could argue that
Tettleton is less valuable than Carter or Sierra, or Molitor or Puckett.  He's
making fewer outs and slugging higher than all four.  He does everything important
better than each.  Sierra and Carter are out machines.  Molitor and Puckett at
least have above average OBPs (Puckett barely) to go along with decent slugging.
--

Electrical \& Computer Engineering  0407
UC San Diego                    
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114 (619) 534-0688, FAX: (619) 534-2486

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Scott Fark » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 02:53:00


Quote:

>|> >Offensively, he [Tettleton] pales in
>|> >comparison to the firstbase and outfielders on the team.
>|>

>|> Nonsense.  He's having a much better season offensively than Ruben Sierra,
>|> Kirby Puckett, Paul Molitor or Joe Carter.
>|>
>|

>Let's check the numbers:
> BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
>TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0

>SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4
>CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5
>MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13
>PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5
>The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
>he draws.  Big deal. If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,
>but he doesn't have a stolen base this year.  Perhaps there's a reason Sierra, Carter,

Stolen bases are the most overrated statistic in baseball.  That's why the Tigers
have been near the top of the majors in runs scored for the past few seasons with
the likes of Fielder, Deer, and Tettleton in their lineup.  With a power packed
lineup like the one the Tigers have, it matters very little where you are on the
basepaths when one of the fellows behind you hits a HR.

What *does* matter is that Tettleton is getting on base at a clip that is about
100 points higher than the average of the fellows you have listed above.  That,
as well as the fact that he's slugging at a more than acceptable clip, is why
Tettleton is having a better season than any of the above non-luminaries.

That's also why, in about 60 less at-bats than the next guy, Tettleton has a
comparable number of runs to the group.

Quote:
>and Puckett are all on  pace to get *60* more RBI's than Tettleton...they realize
>the value of runs and take more of a chance at making an out in the hopes of
>knocking in some runs.  As far as the other primary offensive categories (AVG,
>Slugging perc., total extra bases, stolen bases, runs, etc.) all of these guys are
>equal to or far superior to Tettleton in  every category.  

Please don't call SB's a "primary offensive stat".

Oh, OK - Joe Carter realizes the value of the RBI and *that's* why he makes so many
outs.  It's not because he's a bad hitter or anything, it's just because he's trying
to help out the team by putting the ball into play (and putting himself into the
dugout in the process)...

In 99% of situations it is better to take the walk than to put another out on the
board swinging at a bad pitch or grounding out to the SS.  Seemed like Joe Carter
had that figured out earlier this year - I guess not, though.  That's one
reason his RBI's are falling off - or had you noticed?

Quote:
>If you want to compare Tettleton to other catchers then YES, he is the best offensive
>catcher amongst the offensively-lacking lot of catchers in the AL.  But you cannot say >his offensive value is even close to any of the firstba*** or outfielders on the
>All-Star team.

Sure I can.  Although I wasn't the one who said it in the first place - Tettleton is
having a better year than Carter, Puckett, Sierra, and Molitor.

Regards

Scott

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Nelson » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 02:51:18


Quote:


>|> >Offensively, he [Tettleton] pales in
>|> >comparison to the firstbase and outfielders on the team.
>|>

>|> Nonsense.  He's having a much better season offensively than Ruben Sierra,
>|> Kirby Puckett, Paul Molitor or Joe Carter.
>|>
>|

>Let's check the numbers:
> BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
>TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0

>GRIFFEY,KJR     SEA  .330  .410 312  69 103  16   3  32  66  40  50   7
>BELLE,A         CLE  .377  .466 297  68 112  30   1  25  73  48  44   8
>THOMAS,F        CHW  .377  .514 273  87 103  21   1  29  64  78  40   0
>CLARK,W         TEX  .352  .448 281  56  99  22   2  12  71  49  42   3
>O'NEILL,P       NYY  .365  .462 252  46  92  16   1  14  57  46  43   3
>There's no doubt that Tettleton doesn't compare to these folks.

>SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4
>CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5
>MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13
>PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5
>The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
>he draws.  Big deal. If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,

Uh, no.  It means something (in fact, a lot) if the players behind him are
even AAA quality, so that they have a chance at driving him in.  Remember that
there are two components to offensive contributions.

Tettleton is having a good season, even for a DH; not a great season at a
position other than catcher, but once you figure that he's a catcher primarily,
then Carter, and particularly Sierra, can't measure up.  (Sierra's low OBP
should be an indication why A's below him in the lineup have few RBIs.)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Sarcasm Is A Way Of Lif » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 03:19:07

First, a little message, because there have been an increasing number of
posts like this.

Some people have wider screens than others.

Most people have screens where 1 line is as long as this line goes and no longer

If you make a line longer than that, it looks terrible to most readers.  It
looks fine to you, but not to most of us.

If you're posting so that others can read your article please watch your
line length.

Thank you.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.


Quote:

>|> >Offensively, he [Tettleton] pales in
>|> >comparison to the firstbase and outfielders on the team.
>|>

>|> Nonsense.  He's having a much better season offensively than Ruben Sierra,
>|> Kirby Puckett, Paul Molitor or Joe Carter.
>|>
>|
>Let's check the numbers:
> BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
>TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0
>GRIFFEY,KJR     SEA  .330  .410 312  69 103  16   3  32  66  40  50   7
>BELLE,A         CLE  .377  .466 297  68 112  30   1  25  73  48  44   8
>THOMAS,F        CHW  .377  .514 273  87 103  21   1  29  64  78  40   0
>CLARK,W         TEX  .352  .448 281  56  99  22   2  12  71  49  42   3
>O'NEILL,P       NYY  .365  .462 252  46  92  16   1  14  57  46  43   3
>There's no doubt that Tettleton doesn't compare to these folks.

True.

Quote:
>SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4
>CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5
>MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13
>PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5
>The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
>he draws.  Big deal.

Actually, it's bigger than a big deal; it's a huge deal.  Those walks
mean lots of runs on the scoreboard.

 If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,

Quote:
>but he doesn't have a stolen base this year.

No, actually, it would be utterly meaningless if he had a stolen
base or two.

  Perhaps there's a reason Sierra, Carter,

Quote:
>and Puckett are all on  pace to get *60* more RBI's than Tettleton...they realize
>the value of runs and take more of a chance at making an out in the hopes of
>knocking in some runs.

No, perhaps the reason they have so many RBIs is that they don't realize
the value of runs.  They swing at lots of pitches, accumulate lots of
RBIS, and in doing so cost their teams overall runs.

A player is supposed to increase team runs scored, not increase his RBI
totals.  There are styles of play which increase RBI totals and
decrease team runs scored.  Joe Carter is a perfect example of that type
of player.

It is no coincidence that, thru Sunday, the 3 top teams in walks in the AL are
the 3 top teams in runs, and that Toronto, last in walks, is last
in runs scored.

  As far as the other primary offensive categories (AVG,

Quote:
>Slugging perc., total extra bases, stolen bases, runs, etc.) all of these guys are
>equal to or far superior to Tettleton in  every category.  

That is totally untrue.  Thru Sunday, Tettleton leads every one of
those players in slugging percentage.

Quote:
>If you want to compare Tettleton to other catchers then YES, he is the best offensive
>catcher amongst the offensively-lacking lot of catchers in the AL.  But you cannot say
>his offensive value is even close to any of the firstba*** or outfielders on the
>All-Star team.

In fact, he's clearly better than some - namely, the big out-eaters.

Greg

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by unkno » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 03:34:41

Quote:

>Let's check the numbers:
> BATTERS        ORG   AVG   OBP  AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
>TETTLETON,M     DET  .274  .435 237  46  65  14   2  14  40  66  62   0

>GRIFFEY,KJR     SEA  .330  .410 312  69 103  16   3  32  66  40  50   7
>BELLE,A         CLE  .377  .466 297  68 112  30   1  25  73  48  44   8
>THOMAS,F        CHW  .377  .514 273  87 103  21   1  29  64  78  40   0
>CLARK,W         TEX  .352  .448 281  56  99  22   2  12  71  49  42   3
>O'NEILL,P       NYY  .365  .462 252  46  92  16   1  14  57  46  43   3
>There's no doubt that Tettleton doesn't compare to these folks.

OK.

Quote:
>SIERRA,R        OAK  .264  .292 307  49  81  12   1  17  70  15  48   4
>CARTER,J        TOR  .266  .312 293  44  78  17   2  16  69  23  38   5
>MOLITOR,P       TOR  .328  .401 311  52 102  22   2   8  49  39  34  13
>PUCKETT,K       MIN  .322  .351 317  53 102  23   1  12  76  14  34   5
>The *only* thing that Tettleton has over these guys is the number of walks
>he draws.  Big deal.

1)  Not true.  He has a higher slg than all of them.
2)  Yes, big deal.  In fact, probably _biggest_ deal.  Look at it this
way:  What Tettleton has over all these guys is the number of outs
he doesn't make.  Since outs are the time clock in baseball, they
are undesirable.  Tettleton makes outs a lot less often then Sierra,
Carter, and Puckett, and less often than Molitor.  That is good.  And,
to reiterate, he has more power when he does hit the ball.

If he could steal a base or two this might mean something,

Quote:
>but he doesn't have a stolen base this year.

Hey, Vince Coleman has lots of SB's and he _SUCKS_!

 Perhaps there's a reason Sierra, Carter,

Quote:
>and Puckett are all on  pace to get *60* more RBI's than Tettleton...they realize
>the value of runs and take more of a chance at making an out in the hopes of
>knocking in some runs.  

But they don't realize that those extra outs cost the team runs in the
future...

Sorry, I hate to try to read their minds, just a counter-point.  I don't
necessarily believe either.

As far as the other primary offensive categories (AVG,

Quote:
>Slugging perc., total extra bases, stolen bases, runs, etc.) all of these guys are
>equal to or far superior to Tettleton in  every category.  

PLAYER                  SLG

Tettleton               .527
Sierra                  .476
Carter                  .502
Molitor                 .489
Puckett                 .514

No one even _equal_ here.      

Quote:

>If you want to compare Tettleton to other catchers then YES, he is the best offensive
>catcher amongst the offensively-lacking lot of catchers in the AL.  But you cannot say
>his offensive value is even close to any of the firstba*** or outfielders on the
>All-Star team.

>TJ Hazen

In terms of offensive _value_, he is even more impressive, if, as you say,
the AL catchers are offensively lacking.  Hey, if one team has a great
catcher, and the rest all suck, that is a huge advantage.  It would be
better than having a great outfielder whereas the other teams just have
'pretty good' outfielders...

paul

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by robert and stime » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 05:20:46



Quote:

>It is no coincidence that, thru Sunday, the 3 top teams in walks in the AL are
>the 3 top teams in runs, and that Toronto, last in walks, is last
>in runs scored.

It's certainly no coincidence, agreed.  However, walking a lot by
itself won't score very many runs.  For example, St Louis has the most
walks in the NL (fourth highest in ML) and they have scored the fourth
fewest runs in the league (fourth lowest in ML).  Note also that the
Cards are fourth in the league in OBA.

Looking further, we see that New York, Atlanta, Colorado, Chicago, and
San Diego are (in that order) the teams that have walked the
fewest times.  In terms of runs scored, they are (resp.) 8th, 5th, 2nd,
13th, and 9th best.  So among the five lowest walk-taking teams, only
one of them is among the five lowest run-scoring teams, and two are in the
top five!

I certainly don't want to belittle the value of a walk, but it seems
that the true value of one come from the knowledge that there are
other guys on the team that can drive the runs in.

RStimets

--
    /----/   /----/     /----\  /----/ /----\  /----/
   /        /    /     /     / /____  /     / /____
  /   -/   /    /     /----<  /      /     /      /
 /----/   /----/     /     / /----/ /-----/ /----/

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Edward [Ted] Fisch » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 06:04:33


Quote:

>It's certainly no coincidence, agreed.  However, walking a lot by
>itself won't score very many runs.

Agreed.  Of course, neither will a team with lots of HRs and no OBP.
(Check out the 1990 pre-Tartabull/Boggs Yankees.)  Third in the league
in HR.  But with a .302 OBP, they were *last* in the league in runs
scored.

Run scoring is a balance of OBP and SLG, with a little speed and luck
thrown in.

Cheers,
-Valentine

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Sarcasm Is A Way Of Lif » Sun, 10 Jul 1994 08:04:23


Quote:


>>It is no coincidence that, thru Sunday, the 3 top teams in walks in the AL are
>>the 3 top teams in runs, and that Toronto, last in walks, is last
>>in runs scored.
>It's certainly no coincidence, agreed.  However, walking a lot by
>itself won't score very many runs.

Well, of course.  That's why the extent of my claim was limited to
"no coincidence."  I'm well aware that a team of nine mes, which
would probably have an obp of .300 but would never, ever get a hit,
would not score runs.

Greg

 
 
 

Unfair All-star selections.

Post by Ian Maio » Sat, 09 Jul 1994 10:16:48

Quote:




>> |> >: How Jeff Kent can not make the team when guys like Mariano Duncan and
>> |> >: Carlos Garcia are chosen is an absolute disgrace. The All Star second
>> |> >: ba*** should have been Biggio, Kent, and Bret Boone.

>> Yes, but don't forget that the selections are made more difficult by the fact that
>> each team must be represented by at least one player. Who else on the Pirates
>> is deserving of going...no one really.  Would you have prefered to see Orlando
>> Merced go at the expense of someone like Tony Gwynn.  Besides, Garcia may not
>> hit as well as Kent but he is far better than Kent defensively.

>Agreed. This really demonstrates the idiocy of that rule. Thanks to this
>rule, and thanks to gluts at other positions, the only Pirates who may
>be deserving of going - Merced and Al Martin - have to sit at home, while
>Carlos Garcia goes. Don't get me wrong; I think that Garcia is going to be
>a hell of a player, but he's not there yet.

   One thing Cito said during an interview was that he thought the rosters
for the All-Star Game should be expanded, since there are now more teams.
It makes sense if you're going to hold onto the "each team must be
represented" rule.  

Regards,
Ian