James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by WmBlake » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00


I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news to
any of you out here, here are the teams:

FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM

RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
SP: Christy Mathewson      
SP: Cy Young
RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers

The problems I have are few.  I think that Nap Lajoie belongs ahead of Morgan.
I could flipflop Mays and Cobb with no trouble.  Is Ripken really the 2nd best
SS of all-time?  Is his career value higher than Ozzie Smith?
But my biggest problems are with the second team pitchers.  Warren Spahn is a
"top 20" pitcher for sure, but is his career value higher than Seaver?  He
isn't even in Kid Nichols' and Pete Alexander's ballpark!  And I understand
that Koufax had an otherwordly 5 year peak, but what about the other 7 years of
his career?  I would liken his selection to the 2nd team to naming Gayle Sayers
to the All Time backfield ahead of say Walter Payton.  And while I'm at it, I
can think of two current MLB pitchers who are certainly better choices than
Koufax- Clemens and Maddux.

Just my uninformed opinion.

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Mark Winogra » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Koufax deservers to be on list.  Are we judging greatest or what.  5
years is a long time to  be on top, long enough for me. "Spahn and Sain
and 2 days of rain."  
Quote:

> I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
> due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news to
> any of you out here, here are the teams:

> FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM

> RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
> CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
> LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
> 3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
> SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
> 2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
> 1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
> C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
> SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
> SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
> SP: Christy Mathewson
> SP: Cy Young
> RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers

> The problems I have are few.  I think that Nap Lajoie belongs ahead of Morgan.
> I could flipflop Mays and Cobb with no trouble.  Is Ripken really the 2nd best
> SS of all-time?  Is his career value higher than Ozzie Smith?
> But my biggest problems are with the second team pitchers.  Warren Spahn is a
> "top 20" pitcher for sure, but is his career value higher than Seaver?  He
> isn't even in Kid Nichols' and Pete Alexander's ballpark!  And I understand
> that Koufax had an otherwordly 5 year peak, but what about the other 7 years of
> his career?  I would liken his selection to the 2nd team to naming Gayle Sayers
> to the All Time backfield ahead of say Walter Payton.  And while I'm at it, I
> can think of two current MLB pitchers who are certainly better choices than
> Koufax- Clemens and Maddux.

> Just my uninformed opinion.


 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by John Lowenth » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
>due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news to
>any of you out here, here are the teams:

>FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM

>RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
>CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
>LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
>3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
>SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
>2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
>1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
>C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
>SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
>SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
>SP: Christy Mathewson      
>SP: Cy Young
>RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers

>The problems I have are few.  I think that Nap Lajoie belongs ahead of Morgan.
>I could flipflop Mays and Cobb with no trouble.  Is Ripken really the 2nd best
>SS of all-time?  Is his career value higher than Ozzie Smith?
>But my biggest problems are with the second team pitchers.  Warren Spahn is a
>"top 20" pitcher for sure, but is his career value higher than Seaver?  He
>isn't even in Kid Nichols' and Pete Alexander's ballpark!  And I understand
>that Koufax had an otherwordly 5 year peak, but what about the other 7 years of
>his career?  I would liken his selection to the 2nd team to naming Gayle Sayers
>to the All Time backfield ahead of say Walter Payton.  And while I'm at it, I
>can think of two current MLB pitchers who are certainly better choices than
>Koufax- Clemens and Maddux.

>Just my uninformed opinion.

yes, but the selection of Josh Gibson makes it all come alive :)

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Albert Ya » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00



Quote:
>Koufax deservers to be on list.  Are we judging greatest or what.  5
>years is a long time to  be on top, long enough for me. "Spahn and Sain
>and 2 days of rain."  

Even on the 5 year peak, Maddux has been better than Koufax.
---
Albert Yang

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Ray Kerb » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Here we go again......
Quote:

>Even on the 5 year peak, Maddux has been better than Koufax.
>---

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Paul G. Wenthol » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Quote:



> >Koufax deservers to be on list.  Are we judging greatest or what.  5
> >years is a long time to  be on top, long enough for me. "Spahn and Sain
> >and 2 days of rain."

> Even on the 5 year peak, Maddux has been better than Koufax.

And that is _before_ you adjust for the fact that
Koufax pitched in a pitcher's era in a pitcher's park
at a time when parks were much more pitcher friendly than
they are now, while Maddux has pitched during a hitter's
era in good hitter's parks (well, up to last year).

Actually, I think if you go by 5 year peak, Maddux
and Koufax are about equal before adjustment (although
after adjustment it's not close, and besides, Maddux
may toast it this year).

Is there a chance of Maddux having a 5 year stretch
with an ERA below 2?  Maybe the short seasons in 94
and 95 hurt him too much.

paul

--
Invention is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% inspiration,
and 2% butterscotch ripple --- Willie Wonka

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by ddri.. » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

: I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
: due out in August.  

It's pushed back to August now?  Sheesh.

D

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Thomas R Scudd » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00


: Is there a chance of Maddux having a 5 year stretch
: with an ERA below 2?  Maybe the short seasons in 94
: and 95 hurt him too much.

His ERA for 94-98 right now is 1.99.
--

Squeezing flinthead trout             "I contradict myself?  Very well,
in their massive jaws, sparks fly:     I contra- hey, wait.  No I don't!"
Bears discover fire.

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Paul Bot » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
>due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news to
>any of you out here, here are the teams:

>FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM

>RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
>CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
>LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
>3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
>SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
>2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
>1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
>C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
>SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
>SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
>SP: Christy Mathewson      
>SP: Cy Young
>RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers

>The problems I have are few.  I think that Nap Lajoie belongs ahead of Morgan.
>I could flipflop Mays and Cobb with no trouble.  Is Ripken really the 2nd best
>SS of all-time?  Is his career value higher than Ozzie Smith?
>But my biggest problems are with the second team pitchers.  Warren Spahn is a
>"top 20" pitcher for sure, but is his career value higher than Seaver?  He
>isn't even in Kid Nichols' and Pete Alexander's ballpark!  And I understand
>that Koufax had an otherwordly 5 year peak, but what about the other 7 years of
>his career?  I would liken his selection to the 2nd team to naming Gayle Sayers
>to the All Time backfield ahead of say Walter Payton.  And while I'm at it, I
>can think of two current MLB pitchers who are certainly better choices than
>Koufax- Clemens and Maddux.

Hmm, those teams seem not to deal with the fundamental issue that James
very smartly identified way back in his first "Historical Abstract",
namely, "career value" vs. "peak value." Which is disappointing.

Right next to each other, Koufax is an obvious "peak value" choice while
Spahn is an obvious "career value" choice. To me that makes the list
incoherent - there really is no satisfactory way to combine the two
types of value, though many have tried.

I will be curious to see what James says about that in the new book.

--
"The United States would be just about perfect if it were not for three
flaws: it is obsessed with race, it is full of lawyers, and it is
overrun by religious nuts." Gwynne Dyer, Chicago Tribune, 4/22/98

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Paul G. Wenthol » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


> : Is there a chance of Maddux having a 5 year stretch
> : with an ERA below 2?  Maybe the short seasons in 94
> : and 95 hurt him too much.

> His ERA for 94-98 right now is 1.99.

For Koufax, I get a 5 year stretch of 1.95.  If Maddux
finishes the year where he is now, he will probably beat
that.

OTOH, it is clear that they are close in terms of raw
ERAs.

paul

--
Invention is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% inspiration,
and 2% butterscotch ripple --- Willie Wonka

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Marty & Sherry McMahon » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM
> CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
> 2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
> C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson

I'll be interested to see if he explains why his thinking is so much
different from the Historical Abstract.  He had Mantle as the top CF
over Mays, Morgan tops at 2nd with little respect for Hornsby, and Yogi
as the top catcher.  That's rather different from this.  I wonder if
it's in the peak vs career thing.

Quote:
>  Is Ripken really the 2nd best
> SS of all-time?  Is his career value higher than Ozzie Smith?

I don't have any doubt that Ripken is better than Smith -- career or
peak.  Other players might be more questionable, but I don't have stats
to compare them.

Quote:
> And I understand
> that Koufax had an otherwordly 5 year peak, but what about the other 7 years of
> his career?  I would liken his selection to the 2nd team to naming Gayle Sayers
> to the All Time backfield ahead of say Walter Payton.

Hard to follow whether this list is peak or career.  That could play a
factor.

Marty

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Madduxb » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

(List and Comments snipped)

I happened to see these lists published in the Chicago Tribune earlier this
week.  The columnist, Fred Mitchell, said that the lists were culled from the
selections of a panel of "experts", and was organized by STATS Inc.  He went on
to say that James was among those experts and that the list would be included
in the "Sourcebook" which is due out next month.  He did not mention whether
the selections were based on any set of criteria.  When I saw Koufax's name on
the 2nd team, my first thought, upon looking at the other five pitchers named,
was "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just
doesn't belong."   I guess that I've been spending to much time with my two
year old daughter watching "Sesame Street."  sigh

Peace,

Murph (father to Rebecca "Meercat" Murphy - USGA Open Champion, 2014)

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by Jim H Jackso » Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

> I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which is
> due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news to
> any of you out here, here are the teams:

> FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM

> RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
> CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
> LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
> 3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
> SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
> 2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
> 1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
> C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
> SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
> SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
> SP: Christy Mathewson
> SP: Cy Young
> RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers

What a team!This team is the greatest! Yeah right. You must be dreaming.

It reminds me of a popular baseball movie. The Field of Dreams!
You know why? Because EVERY ONE OF THE FIRST TEAM
PLAYERS ARE WHITE.

Some dream team you've got.
No one notices how all the players who got to come through the
corn field were white. What about Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston
or Dihigo or Cool Papa or Satchel in his prime? They never
got the chance to appear through the corn fields!

This is your baseball expert?

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by WmBlake » Sun, 12 Jul 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>> I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which
>is
>> due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news
>to
>> any of you out here, here are the teams:
>> I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book, which
>is
>> due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So if this is news
>to
>> any of you out here, here are the teams:

{TEAMS SNIPPED}

Quote:
>What a team!This team is the greatest! Yeah right. You must be dreaming.

It's not my team.  As I pointed out above.  I merely saw the lists published in
a newspaper column earlier this week.  I was merely sharing what I saw with the
newsgroup.

Quote:

>It reminds me of a popular baseball movie. The Field of Dreams!
>You know why? Because EVERY ONE OF THE FIRST TEAM
>PLAYERS ARE WHITE.
>Some dream team you've got.
>No one notices how all the players who got to come through the
>corn field were white. What about Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston
>or Dihigo or Cool Papa or Satchel in his prime? They never
>got the chance to appear through the corn fields!

>This is your baseball expert?

I hadn't noticed that.  But now that I look at it, you're right, they are all
white.  I also said that I could easily see Cobb and Mays switched.  I also
wondered about the selection of Koufax to the 2nd team.  I am curious, which
players would YOU replace on the first team?  Would you take Ruth out of RF and
replace him with Aaron?
Is Ozzie Smith better than BOTH Wagner and Ripken?  Is there a black 3B better
than Schmidt?
Do you seriously think that Joe Morgan's career record rates better than
Hornsby?  Lots of great players of every ethnicity/race were left off this
list.  Should Italian-Americans post that there's discrimination present
because noplayers of Italian extraction are on the team? - surely DiMaggio was
the greatest CF of all-time.......
I can't comment on the Negro League players, because I don't have a statistical
record handy.  Gibson (Josh) is already on the 2nd team, and I think that the
anecdotal evidence favors consideration of Satchel Paige.  But outside of
Paige, I can't think of a single black pitcher who could bump any of the
pitchers in the top 4, and only Bob Gibson could warrant any consideration on
the 2nd team.  

And it's not MY team.  My team might look different at a few positions.......

WmBlake
(Sooner *** an infant in its cradle than to nurse unacted desires)

 
 
 

James' All Time Baseball Sourcebook....all-time teams

Post by David Marc Niepore » Sun, 12 Jul 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>> I just saw a list of the first and second team members in the book,
>> which is due out in August.  There are very few surprises in it.  So
>> if this is news to any of you out here, here are the teams:
>> FIRST TEAM             SECOND TEAM
>> RF:Babe Ruth                    Hank Aaron
>> CF: Ty Cobb                     Willie Mays
>> LF: Ted Williams                Stan Musial
>> 3B: Mike Schmidt               Eddie Mathews
>> SS: Honus Wagner            Cal Ripken Jr.
>> 2B: Rogers Hornsby           Joe Morgan
>> 1B: Lou Gehrig                  Jimmie Foxx
>> C:  Johnny Bench              Josh Gibson
>> SP: Walter Johnson           Warren Spahn
>> SP: Lefty Grove                 Sandy Koufax
>> SP: Christy Mathewson
>> SP: Cy Young
>> RP: Dennis Eckersley        Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers
>What a team!This team is the greatest! Yeah right. You must be dreaming.
>It reminds me of a popular baseball movie. The Field of Dreams!
>You know why? Because EVERY ONE OF THE FIRST TEAM PLAYERS ARE WHITE.

So what?  Are you saying that these people are bad choices?  Or just that
we should try to pick black players whether or not they're the best
choice?

Quote:
>Some dream team you've got.
>No one notices how all the players who got to come through the
>corn field were white. What about Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston
>or Dihigo or Cool Papa or Satchel in his prime? They never
>got the chance to appear through the corn fields!

What about them?  How good were they?  You don't know.  I don't know.
Nobody knows.  That's why they're not on there.  The Josh Gibson choice
seems to be some combination of political correctness and not wanting to
decide who the #2 catcher of all time is.

I notice you don't complain that Oh isn't on the list.  Why is that?
--
David M. Nieporent                    "Mr. Simpson, don't you worry.  I

2L - St. John's School of Law          The sound wasn't on, but I think I
Roberto Petagine Appreciation Society  got the gist of it."  -- L. Hutz