HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by bm.. » Wed, 07 Jan 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

>Oh, I forgot.  Simmons did not play in either New York or Boston.  Never
>mind.

Given the recent dismal HOF voting performance of members of New York
championship teams--i.e. Carter, Hernandez, Randolph, Guidry, Munson,
Nettles--I see no basis for the assertion, other than reflexive New York
bashing, that New York players have a significant advantage in HOF voting.
 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by dkei.. » Wed, 07 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


>>Oh, I forgot.  Simmons did not play in either New York or Boston.  Never
>>mind.

>Given the recent dismal HOF voting performance of members of New York
>championship teams--i.e. Carter, Hernandez, Randolph, Guidry, Munson,
>Nettles--I see no basis for the assertion, other than reflexive New York
>bashing, that New York players have a significant advantage in HOF voting.

I agree.

Simmons was a horrible defensive catcher. That's a serious strike
for someone playing a key defensive position.

And he was a good hitter for a catcher, but not a great hitter
as hitters go. He never led the league in anything. The HOF adjusts
for position, but less than they should.

Right or wrong, Simmons was never regarded as a great player
when active. No way was he going into the HOF.

--
Dave Eisen                               Sequoia Peripherals: (650) 967-5644

       There's something in my library to offend everybody.
          --- Washington Coalition Against Censorship

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Lance Freezelan » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Last year, Ted Simmons did not get enough votes to remain on future
ballots.  In yesterday's vote, Carter got  200 votes, putting him fifth
among vote getters.  Next year, Carlton Fisk becomes eligible, and the only
thing that will likely keep him out of the HOF will be the presence of
Brett, Yount and Ryan.  Why no support for Simmons?

Catchers                G       AB      R       H     2B    3B   HR     RBI    SB    BA
OBP  SLG
Ted Simmons             2456    8680   1074    2472     483    47      248     1389  
  21      .285    .352     .437
Gary Carter             2296    7971   1025    2092     371    31      324     1225  
  39      .262    .338     .439
Carlton Fisk            2499    8756   1276    2356     421    47      376     1330  
 128      .269    .343     .457

Oh, I forgot.  Simmons did not play in either New York or Boston.  Never
mind.

--
Lance

"We don't rent pigs.  Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Pit."  
Captain Augustus McCrae

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Not a Pretty Gi » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00


: Last year, Ted Simmons did not get enough votes to remain on future
: ballots.  In yesterday's vote, Carter got  200 votes, putting him fifth
: among vote getters.  Next year, Carlton Fisk becomes eligible, and the only
: thing that will likely keep him out of the HOF will be the presence of
: Brett, Yount and Ryan.  Why no support for Simmons?

        Because Simmons had no postseason experience?  If Gary Carter
hadn't been traded to New York, he'd probably be in the exact same
situation.  As is, people remember Carter's NY years even though his
Expos years were the best ones.  
        Also, Simmons doesn't have 300 HR.  For some reason, this is
very very important.  And he was stuck in lousy hitting parks for most
of his career.  Let's face it, Simmons really had the deck stacked
against him.  It looks like both he and Bert Blyleven aren't going to
make the HoF any time soon while bozos like Steve Garvey get prime
consideration.

        To get a bit off topic, Steve Garvey got 195 votes while Jack
Clark, Pedro Guerrero, and Brian Downing were dropped off the ballot.
Did 195 voters load up on Nyquil before they voted?  It's no wonder
that Simmons has no chance at the HoF; guys like Garvey and Catfish
Hunter keep getting in the way.  

Flabbergastedly,
Hyoun
--
      \_____________  "...if you allow yourself to feel    \_a___________
     \_____________  the way you really feel, maybe you   \___m___s_____
    \_____________  won't be afraid of that feeling      \_____a___a___
   \_____________  anymore."                            \_______t___i_
  \_____________                 tori amos             \_________e___
 \_____________                                       \_____________

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by n » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00


Quote:

> Last year, Ted Simmons did not get enough votes to remain on future
> ballots.  In yesterday's vote, Carter got  200 votes, putting him fifth
> among vote getters.  Next year, Carlton Fisk becomes eligible, and the only
> thing that will likely keep him out of the HOF will be the presence of
> Brett, Yount and Ryan.  Why no support for Simmons?

One reason is that Simmons was not as good a defensive player than Carter.
At catcher defense is very important although it is impossible to actually
quantify how much better Carter was at defense.
 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Crafru » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00


HJ>: Last year, Ted Simmons did not get enough votes to remain on future
HJ>: ballots.  In yesterday's vote, Carter got  200 votes, putting him fifth
HJ>: among vote getters.  Next year, Carlton Fisk becomes eligible, and the onl
HJ>: thing that will likely keep him out of the HOF will be the presence of
HJ>: Brett, Yount and Ryan.  Why no support for Simmons?

HJ>  Because Simmons had no postseason experience?  If Gary Carter
HJ>hadn't been traded to New York, he'd probably be in the exact same
HJ>situation.  As is, people remember Carter's NY years even though his
HJ>Expos years were the best ones.

Simmons played for the 1982 Brewers against the Cards.  How quickly they
forget.

HJ>  Also, Simmons doesn't have 300 HR.  For some reason, this is
HJ>very very important.  And he was stuck in lousy hitting parks for most
HJ>of his career.  Let's face it, Simmons really had the deck stacked
HJ>against him.  It looks like both he and Bert Blyleven aren't going to
HJ>make the HoF any time soon while bozos like Steve Garvey get prime
HJ>consideration.
HJ>  
HJ>  To get a bit off topic, Steve Garvey got 195 votes while Jack
HJ>Clark, Pedro Guerrero, and Brian Downing were dropped off the ballot.
HJ>Did 195 voters load up on Nyquil before they voted?  It's no wonder
HJ>that Simmons has no chance at the HoF; guys like Garvey and Catfish
HJ>Hunter keep getting in the way.

HJ>Flabbergastedly,
HJ>Hyoun
HJ>--
HJ>      \_____________  "...if you allow yourself to feel    \_a___________
HJ>     \_____________  the way you really feel, maybe you   \___m___s_____
HJ>    \_____________  won't be afraid of that feeling      \_____a___a___
HJ>   \_____________  anymore."                            \_______t___i_
HJ>  \_____________                 tori amos             \_________e___
HJ> \_____________                                       \_____________

Actually, I suspect the biggest reason Simmons didn't make it to the
Hall are the percieved defensive problems, not shared by Carter or Fisk.
Had the Cardinals been smart and moved him to 3B when he started his
career, they would have gotten a lot more out of him, and he very likely
would have gone into the hall with 300+ homers.

Russ Craft
--
This message comes from NaSCOM, the official internet server of NaSPA, THE
Network and System Professionals Assocation, with over 40,000 members in 72
countries.  Contact http://www.naspa.net for free trial membership or
X116 or fax (414) 768-8001 or (414) 768-8000 x116 voice.

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Cameron Lai » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00

                        .
                        .
                        .

Quote:
>Actually, I suspect the biggest reason Simmons didn't make it to the
>Hall are the percieved defensive problems, not shared by Carter or Fisk.
>Had the Cardinals been smart and moved him to 3B when he started his
>career, they would have gotten a lot more out of him, and he very likely
>would have gone into the hall with 300+ homers.

                        .
                        .
                        .
Before or after Santo?
--

Cameron Laird           http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Crafru » Thu, 08 Jan 1998 04:00:00


CL>                  .
CL>                  .
CL>                  .
CL>>Actually, I suspect the biggest reason Simmons didn't make it to the
CL>>Hall are the percieved defensive problems, not shared by Carter or Fisk.
CL>>Had the Cardinals been smart and moved him to 3B when he started his
CL>>career, they would have gotten a lot more out of him, and he very likely
CL>>would have gone into the hall with 300+ homers.
CL>                  .
CL>                  .
CL>                  .
CL>Before or after Santo?
CL>--

CL>Cameron Laird           http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html

Well, since the average BB Writer has no idea how much easier it is to
be a power hitter in Wrigley as opposed to Bush, probably after Santo.

Russ Craft
--
This message comes from NaSCOM, the official internet server of NaSPA, THE
Network and System Professionals Assocation, with over 40,000 members in 72
countries.  Contact http://www.naspa.net for free trial membership or
X116 or fax (414) 768-8001 or (414) 768-8000 x116 voice.

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Lance Freezelan » Fri, 09 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:


>>Oh, I forgot.  Simmons did not play in either New York or Boston.  Never
>>mind.

>Given the recent dismal HOF voting performance of members of New York
>championship teams--i.e. Carter, Hernandez, Randolph, Guidry, Munson,
>Nettles--I see no basis for the assertion, other than reflexive New York
>bashing, that New York players have a significant advantage in HOF voting.

Those are probably not good examples, since none of them legitimately
deserves to get in, and therefore cannot complain about their lack of
support.  Keith Hernandez probably comes the closest among the players you
mentioned, and no way does he deserve enshrinement.  

My point is that Simmons is the equal of Carter and Fisk offensively,
although Fisk had more power (perhaps attributable to playing in Fenway
rather than Busch Stadium).  And yes, Gary Carter was superior defensively
to both Simmons and Fisk, but I doubt that matters all that much.  Fisk was
no defensive wizard behind the dish, either, and was no more than an
average defensive catcher.  

If Fisk goes in (and he will), and if Carter goes in (I don't think he
will), then Simmons should also.  And no one can deny that playing for the
Red Sox or Yankees helps a player over the long haul, placing them on a
national stage and helping them develop the "aura" sometimes necessary for
HOF admission.  


Quote:
>Simmons was a horrible defensive catcher. That's a serious strike
>for someone playing a key defensive position.
>And he was a good hitter for a catcher, but not a great hitter
>as hitters go. He never led the league in anything. The HOF adjusts
>for position, but less than they should.                      

As catchers go, Simmons ranks with the best as a hitter:

Simmons .285/.352/.437
G. Carter       .262/.338/.439
Fisk            .269/.343/.457
Y. Berra                .285/.347/.482
Campanella      .276/.358/.500
Bench           .267/.341/.476
Hartnett                .297/.363/.489
***ey          .313/.379/.486
Cochrane        .320/.409/.478

AND he drove in 1389 runs (48th all time).  

Defensively, he wasn't great, but he was not horrible, either, as you
assert.  Maybe he was in his later years in Milwaukee, but during his prime
in St. Louis, he was an average defensive catcher, and by 1978 and 1979,
had improved to the point where he was probably a bit above average.  His
throwing arm was his chief defensive liability.  

Finally, Dave, I looked it up in Total Baseball, and (much to my surprise)
Ted actually did lead the league in a category once.  Ironically, it was
fielding percentage, as he had a .995 FA with Milwaukee in 1982.  
--
Lance

"We don't rent pigs.  Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Pit."  
Captain Augustus McCrae

 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by bm.. » Fri, 09 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:

>Those are probably not good examples, since none of them legitimately
>deserves to get in, and therefore cannot complain about their lack of
>support.  Keith Hernandez probably comes the closest among the players you
>mentioned, and no way does he deserve enshrinement.  

Carter clearly deserves induction as one of the top players ever at his
position. I won't repeat all the arguments posted in another thread. In
any event, my point wasn't that all of those New York players deserved to
be in the HOF but only that they were all very good players, with long
careers, who played on New York championship teams and got very little
HOF support. Hernandez, Nettles, Guidry and Munson would not be the worst
players in the HOF.
 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by n » Fri, 09 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
> Simmons .285/.352/.437
> G. Carter       .262/.338/.439
> Fisk            .269/.343/.457
> Y. Berra                .285/.347/.482
> Campanella      .276/.358/.500
> Bench           .267/.341/.476
> Hartnett                .297/.363/.489
>***ey          .313/.379/.486
> Cochrane        .320/.409/.478

Why do people always leave out Buck Ewing (.303/ .351/ .456)? I know he
only played in 636 games but Berra and Simmons also played other
positions. And Ewing played 1b and 3b pretty well when he wasn't catching.
I am pretty sure he was a good defensive catcher even though he only led
in FP once. And fielding runs are very unreliable.
Add his great leadership as manager and teams would have killed to have him.
In many polls in the early 20th century he was named as the greatest
player ever.
This over Brouthers, Anson, Delahanty, Connor and others.
 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by GKT04 » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Quote:
>Right or wrong, Simmons was never regarded as a great player
>when active. No way was he going into the HOF.

Actually Bill James stated that Simmons was the best hitting catcher of his
day.  Also, James said that his defensive statistics showed him to be average
on that score.  One problem a catcher faces is that people only care about his
throwing arm because they can't see how he influences his pitchers or fields in
general.
 
 
 

HOF vote---Gary Carter Belongs in HOF

Post by Clifford Bl » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00


Quote:
>    Also, Simmons doesn't have 300 HR.  For some reason, this is
>very very important.  And he was stuck in lousy hitting parks for most
>of his career.

Where did you get this from?  While Busch is a poor park for HRs, it
has generally been basically neutral for offense, at least during
Simmons' career.  It is Carter, playing for the Expos and Mets, who
was stuck in lousy hitters' parks.

------------
Clifford Blau
http://pw2.netcom.com/~proboy/orb.htm