Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Edward [Ted] Fisch » Tue, 07 Apr 1992 01:43:09


The biggest reason why the Blue Jays are overrated: They have good
defense.  People give them credit once for their pitching (which has
an artificially low ERA due to the defense), and *again* for the
defense.  Yet those runs are only prevented once!

Of course, their offense is overrated too.  Position by position:
Boggs vs. Alomar        No contest here.  Boggs runs a *far* better
                        OBP, with similar SLG.  SB?  Who cares?
Reed vs. White          White was better in his career year, but not by
                        incredibly much.  It'll probably be pretty close.
Plantier vs. Carter     No contest.  Plantier will out-hit, out-slug, and
                        out-walk Carter.  By approximately two and a half
                        miles (or 150 points of OPS, whichever you prefer).
Burks vs. Winfield      I admit Winfield had the better year last year.
                        But Burks is hitting in Spring Training, and I
                        expect him to return to 1989/1990 form.  Edge Burks
                        by a significant margin.
Greenwell vs. Olerud    Pretty similar, really.  Both will rebound.
Clark vs. Gruber        Gruber will bop a few more HR.  Clark will walk his
                        way to a .380+ OBP.  Significant edge to Clark.
Vaughn vs. Bell         Can't really call this one.  But if I had to, I'd
                        give Vaughn the edge.  The power is the difference.
                        They both hit for a reasonable BA, and Vaughn
                        probably won't walk much more often.
Rivera vs. Borders      Slight edge to Borders, but not by much.
Pena vs. Lee/Griffin    Does *anybody* compare unfavorably to Manny Lee?  :-)

The Sox lineup has more power in practically *every* lineup position,
and more OBP in *every* lineup position.  I don't even see it as being
close.

-Valentine

--

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Darryl Gamb » Wed, 08 Apr 1992 05:35:17


|>
|> The biggest reason why the Blue Jays are overrated: They have good
|> defense.  People give them credit once for their pitching (which has
|> an artificially low ERA due to the defense), and *again* for the
|> defense.  Yet those runs are only prevented once!
|>
|> Of course, their offense is overrated too.  Position by position:
|> Boggs vs. Alomar  No contest here.  Boggs runs a *far* better
|>                   OBP, with similar SLG.  SB?  Who cares?

Yep, poor guy must be a Red Sox fan.  Who cares about stolen bases, our team
doesn't use them so they aren't really useful.  Boggs OBA shadows Alomar's by
a large margin, so we'll give the edge to Boggs here.

|> Reed vs. White    White was better in his career year, but not by
|>                   incredibly much.  It'll probably be pretty close.

Oh yeah...let's see Jody has 13 HR's over the past three seasons, and 14 SB.
White had 17 HR's and 33 steals last year alone.  Fairly big edge to Reed in
average, but come on look at those numbers above.  Pretty close ? I think not.
Edge to White and he plays great center field defense.

|> Plantier vs. Carter       No contest.  Plantier will out-hit, out-slug, and
|>                   out-walk Carter.  By approximately two and a half
|>                   miles (or 150 points of OPS, whichever you prefer).

I admit I really like Plantier.  And he could very well, out hit, slug and will
definitely out walk Carter.  But Carter does drive in runs.  I know, I know...
but let's make sure Plantier doesn't have a hole in his swing somewhere first,
alright ?  Let's call this a wash for now.

|> Burks vs. Winfield        I admit Winfield had the better year last year.
|>                   But Burks is hitting in Spring Training, and I
|>                   expect him to return to 1989/1990 form.  Edge Burks
|>                   by a significant margin.

Burks has averaged 16 homers over the past three seasons.  His average will
probably rebound into the .290-.300 range, and he'll drive in 70-80 runs.
I expect Winfield to get 20-25 homers, bat .260, and drive in about the same
number of runs.  Of course, Burks is 27 and Winfield is 40...edge to Burks.

|> Greenwell vs. Olerud      Pretty similar, really.  Both will rebound.

Yeah, I agree.  This could be where the big difference between the Jays and
the Red Sox is formed.  I'll call this a toss up, with either team having a
chance to win big or lose big.

|> Clark vs. Gruber  Gruber will bop a few more HR.  Clark will walk his
|>                   way to a .380+ OBP.  Significant edge to Clark.

Clark will out walk Kelly in his sleep, I'm sure.  But if Kelly can come back to
his 1990 numbers this one is pretty close.  Still the edge goes to Clark.

|> Vaughn vs. Bell           Can't really call this one.  But if I had to, I'd
|>                   give Vaughn the edge.  The power is the difference.
|>                   They both hit for a reasonable BA, and Vaughn
|>                   probably won't walk much more often.

I don't think Derek Bell was given Minor League Player of the Year for nothing.
I think this one is a edge for the Jays, and I'm not even that high on Bell.

|> Rivera vs. Borders        Slight edge to Borders, but not by much.

Let's take a look at Rivera's numbers...20 HR's, .247 avg. over past three years.
Borders has batted .263 while hitting 23 homers.  I would have to call this even.

|> Pena vs. Lee/Griffin      Does *anybody* compare unfavorably to Manny Lee?  :-)

I wish I could say..."yes someone does", but as far as I know only Cory Snyder
really makes Lee look good.  And now the Giants have him. :-(

|>
|> The Sox lineup has more power in practically *every* lineup position,
|> and more OBP in *every* lineup position.  I don't even see it as being
|> close.

Well, when you say things like White and Reed are pretty close, I think your
a little, shall we say, biased.  Perhaps looking through Red Sox coloured
glasses ?  (Of course, almost everyone in this group knows your a Red Sox fan
so that's expected.)  I think Boston does have as good an offense IN THE
NUMBERS as the Jays, but there is one other very important thing.  The Red Sox
are putting up there numbers in Fenway...on of the best hitters parks in the
majors.  And when you look at it that way, I think you find a very close
comparison between the Jays and the Red Sox based on hitting alone.

When you get talking about the pitching, I think that the Jays look better than
the Red Sox.  And that's why I believe the Blue Jays will win their division
again this year with Boston finishing second by about 4 games.

My 2 cents worth,

York University, Toronto

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Ted Fra » Wed, 08 Apr 1992 12:12:26

Quote:


>|> Of course, their offense is overrated too.  Position by position:
>|> Reed vs. White        White was better in his career year, but not by
>|>                       incredibly much.  It'll probably be pretty close.

>Oh yeah...let's see Jody has 13 HR's over the past three seasons, and 14 SB.
>White had 17 HR's and 33 steals last year alone.  Fairly big edge to Reed in
>average, but come on look at those numbers above.  Pretty close ? I think not.
>Edge to White and he plays great center field defense.

How does great center field defense help your offensive lineup?

Jody Reed had his worst season last year, and he still had a higher OBP
than White in his best season.  In 1988-1990, he outslugged White twice,
and just missed a third time.  He's consistently had an OBP sixty points
higher.  Edge Reed.

Quote:
>|> Plantier vs. Carter   No contest.  Plantier will out-hit, out-slug, and
>|>                       out-walk Carter.  By approximately two and a half
>|>                       miles (or 150 points of OPS, whichever you prefer).

>I admit I really like Plantier.  And he could very well, out hit, slug and will
>definitely out walk Carter.  But Carter does drive in runs.  I know, I know...
>but let's make sure Plantier doesn't have a hole in his swing somewhere first,
>alright ?  Let's call this a wash for now.

Let's see, Plantier *might* have a hole in his swing, against someone nine
years older who *does* have a hole in his swing.  Sure, Carter drove in 108
runs, but he ate up 488 outs in the process.  Plantier drove in a third
as many runs while making well under a quarter of the outs.  Edge Plantier.

Quote:
>|> Vaughn vs. Bell       Can't really call this one.  But if I had to, I'd
>|>                       give Vaughn the edge.  The power is the difference.
>|>                       They both hit for a reasonable BA, and Vaughn
>|>                       probably won't walk much more often.

>I don't think Derek Bell was given Minor League Player of the Year for nothing.
>I think this one is a edge for the Jays, and I'm not even that high on Bell.

Well, both Bell and Vaughn played in the International League in 1990-91,
so we can compare.

Bell, 228 G, 263 for 859, 35/17/20, 48 SB, 80 BB, 306/372/456.
Vaughn, 177 G, 178 for 620, 36/1/36, 5 SB, 104 BB, 287/397/523.

Vaughn walks more and has more power, while Bell has more speed and legs
out more singles.  I think Bell will have a better career in the long
run, but it's not unreasonable to say that Vaughn will outplay him this
year.  I'd give it 2-1 odds.

Quote:
>|> Rivera vs. Borders    Slight edge to Borders, but not by much.

>Let's take a look at Rivera's numbers...20 HR's,
>.247 avg. over past three years.
>Borders has batted .263 while hitting 23 homers.  
>I would have to call this even.

Rivera had a better 1989 and 1991, but Borders had a much better 1990.
Rivera never walks, but Borders walks even less, negating the BA.
Borders has more potential on the upside for a better season, but
Rivera's more consistent[ly bad].  In short, Borders at his best is
much better than Rivera at his best, but Rivera at his worst is better
than Borders at his worst.  Okay, I'll stop beating a dead horse. Edge
to Borders.

Quote:
>|> The Sox lineup has more power in practically *every* lineup position,
>|> and more OBP in *every* lineup position.  I don't even see it as being
>|> close.

>Well, when you say things like White and Reed are pretty close, I think your
>a little, shall we say, biased.  Perhaps looking through Red Sox coloured
>glasses ?  (Of course, almost everyone in this group knows your a Red Sox fan
>so that's expected.)  I think Boston does have as good an offense IN THE
>NUMBERS as the Jays, but there is one other very important thing.  The Red Sox
>are putting up there numbers in Fenway...on of the best hitters parks in the
>majors.  

And the Blue Jays are putting up their numbers in SkyDome, an even better
hitters park.  Between 1988 and 1991, White's only had one better season
than Reed (and he was still worse in OBP in all four), the only bias in
calling them close is a Toronto bias.

But about these stadiums:

Red Sox BA/HR/RBI, Home:        277/69/359      Road:   260/57/332
B Jays  BA/HR/RBI, Home:        269/75/340      Road:   246/58/309

Red Sox ERA,    Fenway: 3.91, Road: 4.14
Blue Jays ERA,  Sky Dome: 3.83, Road: 3.16.

Quick, which park favored hitters more?
--
Ted Frank          + "A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged, it
1307 E 60 St, #109 +  is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in
U o' C Law Skool   +  color and content according to the circumstances and
Chi, IL 60637      +  the time in which it is used."  --  Holmes

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Greg Len » Wed, 08 Apr 1992 13:05:26

Quote:
>>Pena vs. Lee.  Does anyone compare unfavorably to Lee?
>I wish I could say..."yes someone does", but as far as I know only Cory

Snyder really makes Lee look good.  And now the Giants have him.

3 for 5 and robbed Sciossia of a home run in today's 8-1 victory over
the Dodgers.  Comeback Player of The Year?

Go Giants

Greg

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Gary Overshadowed By Fate Huckab » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 01:38:50

Quote:


>|> Plantier vs. Carter   No contest.  Plantier will out-hit, out-slug, and
>|>                       out-walk Carter.  By approximately two and a half
>|>                       miles (or 150 points of OPS, whichever you prefer).

>I admit I really like Plantier.  And he could very well, out hit, slug and will
>definitely out walk Carter.  But Carter does drive in runs.  I know, I know...
>but let's make sure Plantier doesn't have a hole in his swing somewhere first,
>alright ?  Let's call this a wash for now.

Why should we call it a wash?  Joe Carter had the year of his life
last year, and still wasn't that great.  Plantier will do just as Val
says - he'll MASSACRE Carter in terms of production.

Quote:
>|> Burks vs. Winfield    I admit Winfield had the better year last year.
>|>                       But Burks is hitting in Spring Training, and I
>|>                       expect him to return to 1989/1990 form.  Edge Burks
>|>                       by a significant margin.

>Burks has averaged 16 homers over the past three seasons.  His average will
>probably rebound into the .290-.300 range, and he'll drive in 70-80 runs.
>I expect Winfield to get 20-25 homers, bat .260, and drive in about the same
>number of runs.  Of course, Burks is 27 and Winfield is 40...edge to Burks.

You expect Winfield to hit .260 with 20-25 Home Runs.

Why?

Quote:
>|> Clark vs. Gruber      Gruber will bop a few more HR.  Clark will walk his
>|>                       way to a .380+ OBP.  Significant edge to Clark.

>Clark will out walk Kelly in his sleep, I'm sure. But if Kelly can come back to
>his 1990 numbers this one is pretty close.  Still the edge goes to Clark.

If Kelly can come back to his 1990 numbers, I, for one, will be
astounded.  Wasn't he 27 in 1990?  Gruber doesn't walk much, either.
He'd have to slug .600 in order to make up for his extra out
consumption.

Quote:
>|> Vaughn vs. Bell       Can't really call this one.  But if I had to, I'd
>|>                       give Vaughn the edge.  The power is the difference.
>|>                       They both hit for a reasonable BA, and Vaughn
>|>                       probably won't walk much more often.

>I don't think Derek Bell was given Minor League Player of the Year for nothing.
>I think this one is a edge for the Jays, and I'm not even that high on Bell.

I don't think Pete Vuckovich was voted the Cy Young winner for
nothing.

Quote:
>|> Pena vs. Lee/Griffin  Does *anybody* compare unfavorably to Manny Lee?  :-)

>I wish I could say..."yes someone does", but as far as I know only Cory Snyder
>really makes Lee look good.  And now the Giants have him. :-(

Tony Pena comes pretty close.

Quote:
>Well, when you say things like White and Reed are pretty close, I think your
>a little, shall we say, biased.  Perhaps looking through Red Sox coloured
>glasses ?  (Of course, almost everyone in this group knows your a Red Sox fan
>so that's expected.)

White will likely post a lower OBP than Reed, and may cost his team
with his basestealing antics.  Jody Reed is not a defensive whiz, but
he's very good at not consuming outs.  White has yet to show that
skill.

Quote:
>I think Boston does have as good an offense IN THE
>NUMBERS as the Jays, but there is one other very important thing.  The Red Sox
>are putting up there numbers in Fenway...on of the best hitters parks in the
>majors.  

Does someone have recent park adjustments?  I would bet the two parks
are pretty comparable in terms of run production, but I haven't seen
any numbers, and don't have an Elias handy.  (Chose not to purchase
that thing this year.)

Quote:
>And when you look at it that way, I think you find a very close
>comparison between the Jays and the Red Sox based on hitting alone.

I think that in order to think the Jays have CLOSE to as good of an
offense as the Red Sox would require, at a minimum, hallucinogens.  At
a maximum, it would require a lobotomy.

Quote:
>When you get talking about the pitching, I think that the Jays look better than
>the Red Sox.  And that's why I believe the Blue Jays will win their division
>again this year with Boston finishing second by about 4 games.

We'll see.  I have NO faith in Jack Morris whatsoever, nor in Stieb or
Key's health.  If the Jays win the division, it will be on their
bullpen, and in SPITE of Cito "I love to give Dave Till ulcers"
Gaston.

Nice to have the game back, yes?

--
*    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
*   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
*  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
*    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Sam » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 02:41:26

What I can say is
I totally disagree what you have post.
 [DYou only voiced out your OWN OPINION.
 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Sam » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 02:46:10

Are there any Blue Jays Fan out there?
Please defense your team!!!!!!!!!

By the way, Ted, do you want to bet who will
win the division title again this year?
                       ^^^^^

Go..... JAYS....... Go.........

P.S.  Jays just beat the Tigers 4-2 in the
      season opener.
      (Home Run-BORDERS , Home Run-OLERUD)

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Gregory G Gree » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 12:17:25

Quote:
> Why should we call it a wash?  Joe Carter had the year of his life
> last year, and still wasn't that great.  Plantier will do just as Val
> says - he'll MASSACRE Carter in terms of production.

        I don't think Joe Carter will really care about being MASSACRED by
  Plantier in production.  Carter will be going to the ALCS in October and
  Plantier will be going home, where he can marvel at his awesome stats.

                                                G.Greene

Quote:
> *    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
> *   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
> *  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
> *    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Edward [Ted] Fisch » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 13:02:46

Quote:

>What I can say is
>I totally disagree what you have post.
>You only voiced out your OWN OPINION.

Hey, at least I gave reasons!  But where did people get this
equalitarian idea that all opinions are equal?  Some are right and
some are wrong.  We just don't know which yet.  This is baseball,
not religion!

-Valentine
--

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Nelson » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 14:54:50


Quote:

>> Why should we call it a wash?  Joe Carter had the year of his life
>> last year, and still wasn't that great.  Plantier will do just as Val
>> says - he'll MASSACRE Carter in terms of production.

>    I don't think Joe Carter will really care about being MASSACRED by
>  Plantier in production.  Carter will be going to the ALCS in October and
>  Plantier will be going home, where he can marvel at his awesome stats.

Boy, 1 win, and you obnoxious Blue Jays fan sounds if you have the division
knocked down.  I remember the A's fans from last year.  Guess what happened...

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Charter Member of the Acker-o-phobics Anonymous
===============================================================================

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Lyle Youngblo » Thu, 09 Apr 1992 15:24:58

 *    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
 *   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
 *  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
 *    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *

    Or maybe you could fly into Indy.  There's a place called Don's Guns.
His motto is "I don't care about money, I just LOVE to sell guns."  Hell, I'm
not even an A's fan and I'd spring for the ammo....<grin><no offense intended>

--
All men are equal, Colnel Colt made 'em that way - Old West Proverb
Political power flows from the barrell of a gun - Mao Tse-tung
Same thought, different words - Lyle Young***

 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by david j warne » Fri, 10 Apr 1992 00:47:04


Quote:
> *    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
> *   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
> *  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
> *    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *

>    Or maybe you could fly into Indy.  There's a place called Don's Guns.
>His motto is "I don't care about money, I just LOVE to sell guns."  Hell, I'm
>not even an A's fan and I'd spring for the ammo....<grin><no offense intended

It was only a matter of time before I saw somebody crack on Don's Guns
somewhere on this net.  A friend of mine clipped a newspaper ad of his, which
showed him aiming a 9mm a the camera and smiling maniacally as he always does.
I wonder what he thinks of the A's lack of ammo...

Quote:
>--
>All men are equal, Colnel Colt made 'em that way - Old West Proverb
>Political power flows from the barrell of a gun - Mao Tse-tung
>Same thought, different words - Lyle Young***


--
- David J. Warner            - "Maybe (Montross) plays better after he gets   -

- (One for all...            -                              - Dean Smith      -
-             BRAND NUBIAN!) -                                                -
 
 
 

Blue Jays vs. Red Sox

Post by Thomas M. Nicc » Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:51:18


Quote:

>> *    Gary Huckabay    * "They sent Brosius down."  "So Lansford has the job?" *
>> *   "A considerably   * "Yep.  And it looks like Bordick has won the 2B job." *
>> *  shorter fuse than  * "I guess I better make postseason plans now." "Good   *
>> *    Sherri Nichols." *  idea.  Call Puget Sound Airways." - GH & EG.         *

>>    Or maybe you could fly into Indy.  There's a place called Don's Guns.
>>His motto is "I don't care about money, I just LOVE to sell guns."  Hell, I'm
>>not even an A's fan and I'd spring for the ammo....<grin><no offense intended
>It was only a matter of time before I saw somebody crack on Don's Guns
>somewhere on this net.  A friend of mine clipped a newspaper ad of his, which
>showed him aiming a 9mm a the camera and smiling maniacally as he always does.
>I wonder what he thinks of the A's lack of ammo...

I'm holding in my hand a prized souvenier from an Indy trip a few years
ago:  a newspaper adverti***t for Don's Guns - just listen....

FREE GUN - with purchase of membership to indoor gun ranges...
Free unlimited shooting with membership...
$75.00 + Tax

Quite a deal, eh?

Quote:

>>--
>>All men are equal, Colnel Colt made 'em that way - Old West Proverb
>>Political power flows from the barrell of a gun - Mao Tse-tung
>>Same thought, different words - Lyle Young***

>--
>- David J. Warner            - "Maybe (Montross) plays better after he gets   -

>- (One for all...            -                              - Dean Smith      -
>-             BRAND NUBIAN!) -                                                -

--
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