absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Sakatoo » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:06:22


I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This is a
non-sense KO!!!
It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind or
Walcott deliberately stayed down?
 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by DCI » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:51:52

Quote:

>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This is a
>non-sense KO!!!
>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind or
>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
"creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

DCI

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:19:22


Quote:

>>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This is
>>a
>>non-sense KO!!!
>>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind or
>>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

> Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
> "creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

> DCI

Very true. The camera angle made it appear Walcott wasn't hit, but sports
writers at ring side saw a short right hand get Walcott.
However, it was not as hard a punch as the KO punch in the first fight.
Marciano himself said after the 1st round KO, "Walcott should have got up. I
would have."

Walcott's manager told later that Walcott was in a very depressed mood in
the dressing room and they couldn't get his spirits up. He acted like
someone being led to an execution. On the way to the ring, his manager said
he took Jersey's Joe's elbow to guide him and could feel him trembling with
fear. He said he realized that Walcott was terrified of Marciano and if he
was knocked down he wouldn't try very hard to get up.

In fairness to Jersey Joe, consider just how devastating a KO he suffered in
the first fight. He was knocked completely unconsious, not just stunned. It
took several minutes to revive him and people at ringside feared he was
dead. A tv exec at ringside said he thought, "Oh my God, he's killed him on
live television!"

Other ringsiders, such as A. J. Leibling, also thought at first that Walcott
had suffered a fatal knockout. You don't see those type KO's very often,
where the fighter freezes in place, then the body just collapses because
there are no more signals coming from the brain. Most KO victims say they
are aware they are down but unable to get up, or they are confused and
aren't sure if they are down or not.

Against Rex Layne Marciano also landed a short right hand with the camera
behind Marciano's back. Layne stands there for a moment, then just collapses
like a dishrag. His handlers said the punch knocked the mouthpiece and his
front teeth across the ring, yet the punch doesn't appear that hard.

Fred Brown (sportswriter) said, "He hits you with something that looks like
a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his
legs."

And sportswriter Bill Corum said, "He's the hardest hitting fighter I've
ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims
till they move again."

So, while the punch may not have looked like a KO from the angle, it was a
solid punch. Possibly Jersey Joe could have got up, but he was only going to
get more of the same, or worse, and he didn't want to ever get hit again as
hard as he was in the first fight.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Sakatoo » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:37:23



Quote:




> >>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This
is
> >>a
> >>non-sense KO!!!
> >>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind
or
> >>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

> > Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
> > "creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

> > DCI

> Very true. The camera angle made it appear Walcott wasn't hit, but sports
> writers at ring side saw a short right hand get Walcott.

[[cut]]

Exactly, maybe is the position of the camera that doesn't let to see the
punch.
I'm very curious: where did you find all this information about people at
ring side?
Thanks a lot.

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by mindblende » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:14:39


Quote:
> I'm very curious: where did you find all this information about people at
> ring side?
> Thanks a lot.

Dude, it's Bobby Bearden. You don't ask where he got his info. The guy is a
walking tome of boxing knowledge :)
 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:36:54


Quote:






>> >>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This
> is
>> >>a
>> >>non-sense KO!!!
>> >>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind
> or
>> >>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

>> > Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
>> > "creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

>> > DCI

>> Very true. The camera angle made it appear Walcott wasn't hit, but sports
>> writers at ring side saw a short right hand get Walcott.

> [[cut]]

> Exactly, maybe is the position of the camera that doesn't let to see the
> punch.
> I'm very curious: where did you find all this information about people at
> ring side?
> Thanks a lot.

Some from my Rocky Marciano web site:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/Rock.html
I also have an extensive collection of old boxing magazines, books, and
newspapers. Some of my newspapers go back to the 1890s, and my boxing books
and magazines to the 1920s.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:42:22


Quote:



>> I'm very curious: where did you find all this information about people at
>> ring side?
>> Thanks a lot.

> Dude, it's Bobby Bearden. You don't ask where he got his info. The guy is
> a walking tome of boxing knowledge :)

:-)  Thanks but I'm not worthy.

Actually, I have to look up and verify stuff just like everyone else. I just
happen to have a lot of references and while I can't usually remember which
issue of a magazine I read something, I can normally picture in my mind the
location of the info in regards to where on the page and if there are photos
on the page.

This helps me to locate things I read, like when someone asked about the
fighter who was killed trying to prevent a robbery. I recalled it was Bummy
Davis and that I had a Ring magazine with an account of the killing right
after it happened which I had read a couple years ago. Looking up when Davis
died I was able to narrow the search down to Ring magazines that came out
within a couple of years of the ***.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Ruddel » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:44:34


Quote:
> Some from my Rocky Marciano web site:
> http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/Rock.html
> I also have an extensive collection of old boxing magazines, books,
> and  newspapers. Some of my newspapers go back to the 1890s, and my
> boxing books  and magazines to the 1920s.

I tried that site and it's down?  Not down as get down, but as in it's
down?  How come it's not up?

--
Cheers

Dennis

Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:01:48


Quote:

>> Some from my Rocky Marciano web site:
>> http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/Rock.html
>> I also have an extensive collection of old boxing magazines, books,
>> and  newspapers. Some of my newspapers go back to the 1890s, and my
>> boxing books  and magazines to the 1920s.

> I tried that site and it's down?  Not down as get down, but as in it's
> down?  How come it's not up?

> --
> Cheers

> Dennis

I just clicked and it opened. Sometimes Yahoo will temporarily shut a site
down for too much traffic.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by DCI » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:17:52

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:19:22 -0600, "Bobby Bearden"

Quote:




>>>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This is
>>>a
>>>non-sense KO!!!
>>>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind or
>>>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

>> Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
>> "creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

>> DCI

>Very true. The camera angle made it appear Walcott wasn't hit, but sports
>writers at ring side saw a short right hand get Walcott.
>However, it was not as hard a punch as the KO punch in the first fight.
>Marciano himself said after the 1st round KO, "Walcott should have got up. I
>would have."

>Walcott's manager told later that Walcott was in a very depressed mood in
>the dressing room and they couldn't get his spirits up. He acted like
>someone being led to an execution. On the way to the ring, his manager said
>he took Jersey's Joe's elbow to guide him and could feel him trembling with
>fear. He said he realized that Walcott was terrified of Marciano and if he
>was knocked down he wouldn't try very hard to get up.

>In fairness to Jersey Joe, consider just how devastating a KO he suffered in
>the first fight. He was knocked completely unconsious, not just stunned. It
>took several minutes to revive him and people at ringside feared he was
>dead. A tv exec at ringside said he thought, "Oh my God, he's killed him on
>live television!"

>Other ringsiders, such as A. J. Leibling, also thought at first that Walcott
>had suffered a fatal knockout. You don't see those type KO's very often,
>where the fighter freezes in place, then the body just collapses because
>there are no more signals coming from the brain. Most KO victims say they
>are aware they are down but unable to get up, or they are confused and
>aren't sure if they are down or not.

>Against Rex Layne Marciano also landed a short right hand with the camera
>behind Marciano's back. Layne stands there for a moment, then just collapses
>like a dishrag. His handlers said the punch knocked the mouthpiece and his
>front teeth across the ring, yet the punch doesn't appear that hard.

>Fred Brown (sportswriter) said, "He hits you with something that looks like
>a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his
>legs."

>And sportswriter Bill Corum said, "He's the hardest hitting fighter I've
>ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims
>till they move again."

>So, while the punch may not have looked like a KO from the angle, it was a
>solid punch. Possibly Jersey Joe could have got up, but he was only going to
>get more of the same, or worse, and he didn't want to ever get hit again as
>hard as he was in the first fight.

>Bobby Bearden

All of these recounts reminds me of a time when Marciano came the west
coast, (1953 or 54) looking for marketable and worthy opponents for
his next fight. On the day he came to the Main Street Gym in Los
Angeles, the heavies who could have been considered were suspiciously
absent while other fighters of all the weights showed up just to see
or shake hands with Marciano. The word of Marciano's real power and
ability to just keep coming on when others would quit had surely
gotten around among the trainers and managers who sort of had their
fighters come in to the gym a little later than usual.

As an aside, one of my friends, himself then a very good fighter,
claimed that he would have fought Marciano if he were offered the
opportunity was there. We all knew better. He had sparred with Freddie
Beshore in preparation for Beshore's 1951 bout in Boston with
Marciano. Marciano dispatched Beshore in four rounds. When Beshore
returned to California, he gave a recount of the fight to the Moose
(Lodge) Gym admirers. As big and strong as Beshore was, he just could
not keep Marciano off of him, no matter what he tried to set up. The
bruises all over his body attested to it. In a strange way months
later, many of us held Beshore in high regard for just for getting in
the ring with Marciano, especially after the KO of Joe Louis. Marciano
was regarded as no fluke, a lucky one-timer.

I consider myself lucky to be there at the gym to see the unfolding of
the events in that span if time when Marciano visited. He was
absolutely a quiet, respectful, reserved man as he met and shook hands
with admirers. What struck me about him was just how really "thick of
build" he was in person. Like his name, he was built like a rock or
tree stump. His thick hands looked more like clubs. And his then
nearly rather high pitched voice seemed strangely contradictory to the
unstoppable bull-like strength he displayed in the ring.

DCI

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:54:48


Quote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:19:22 -0600, "Bobby Bearden"




>>>>I've just seen the rematch Marciano vs. Walcott (1953)............This
>>>>is
>>>>a
>>>>non-sense KO!!!
>>>>It's a  fake!! Walcott didn't receive any punch......Am I totally blind
>>>>or
>>>>Walcott deliberately stayed down?

>>> Totally blind? No, just a bit off the mark of the fact that Marciano
>>> "creamed" Walcott with a short solid punch. Suggest you look again.

>>> DCI

>>Very true. The camera angle made it appear Walcott wasn't hit, but sports
>>writers at ring side saw a short right hand get Walcott.
>>However, it was not as hard a punch as the KO punch in the first fight.
>>Marciano himself said after the 1st round KO, "Walcott should have got up.
>>I
>>would have."

>>Walcott's manager told later that Walcott was in a very depressed mood in
>>the dressing room and they couldn't get his spirits up. He acted like
>>someone being led to an execution. On the way to the ring, his manager
>>said
>>he took Jersey's Joe's elbow to guide him and could feel him trembling
>>with
>>fear. He said he realized that Walcott was terrified of Marciano and if he
>>was knocked down he wouldn't try very hard to get up.

>>In fairness to Jersey Joe, consider just how devastating a KO he suffered
>>in
>>the first fight. He was knocked completely unconsious, not just stunned.
>>It
>>took several minutes to revive him and people at ringside feared he was
>>dead. A tv exec at ringside said he thought, "Oh my God, he's killed him
>>on
>>live television!"

>>Other ringsiders, such as A. J. Leibling, also thought at first that
>>Walcott
>>had suffered a fatal knockout. You don't see those type KO's very often,
>>where the fighter freezes in place, then the body just collapses because
>>there are no more signals coming from the brain. Most KO victims say they
>>are aware they are down but unable to get up, or they are confused and
>>aren't sure if they are down or not.

>>Against Rex Layne Marciano also landed a short right hand with the camera
>>behind Marciano's back. Layne stands there for a moment, then just
>>collapses
>>like a dishrag. His handlers said the punch knocked the mouthpiece and his
>>front teeth across the ring, yet the punch doesn't appear that hard.

>>Fred Brown (sportswriter) said, "He hits you with something that looks
>>like
>>a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to
>>his
>>legs."

>>And sportswriter Bill Corum said, "He's the hardest hitting fighter I've
>>ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims
>>till they move again."

>>So, while the punch may not have looked like a KO from the angle, it was a
>>solid punch. Possibly Jersey Joe could have got up, but he was only going
>>to
>>get more of the same, or worse, and he didn't want to ever get hit again
>>as
>>hard as he was in the first fight.

>>Bobby Bearden

> All of these recounts reminds me of a time when Marciano came the west
> coast, (1953 or 54) looking for marketable and worthy opponents for
> his next fight. On the day he came to the Main Street Gym in Los
> Angeles, the heavies who could have been considered were suspiciously
> absent while other fighters of all the weights showed up just to see
> or shake hands with Marciano. The word of Marciano's real power and
> ability to just keep coming on when others would quit had surely
> gotten around among the trainers and managers who sort of had their
> fighters come in to the gym a little later than usual.

> As an aside, one of my friends, himself then a very good fighter,
> claimed that he would have fought Marciano if he were offered the
> opportunity was there. We all knew better. He had sparred with Freddie
> Beshore in preparation for Beshore's 1951 bout in Boston with
> Marciano. Marciano dispatched Beshore in four rounds. When Beshore
> returned to California, he gave a recount of the fight to the Moose
> (Lodge) Gym admirers. As big and strong as Beshore was, he just could
> not keep Marciano off of him, no matter what he tried to set up. The
> bruises all over his body attested to it. In a strange way months
> later, many of us held Beshore in high regard for just for getting in
> the ring with Marciano, especially after the KO of Joe Louis. Marciano
> was regarded as no fluke, a lucky one-timer.

> I consider myself lucky to be there at the gym to see the unfolding of
> the events in that span if time when Marciano visited. He was
> absolutely a quiet, respectful, reserved man as he met and shook hands
> with admirers. What struck me about him was just how really "thick of
> build" he was in person. Like his name, he was built like a rock or
> tree stump. His thick hands looked more like clubs. And his then
> nearly rather high pitched voice seemed strangely contradictory to the
> unstoppable bull-like strength he displayed in the ring.

> DCI

I envy you getting to meet him in person. I remember you've told me about
his visit to your gym before and it seems to fit in with what others have
said about him. Larry Merchant once said, "Marciano wasn't small when you
met him in person."

I just read "The Rock of His Times" and recommend it to anyone interested in
Marciano. It puts into perspective the era in which he fought and how it
helped to mold the concept of Marciano as champion. It also points out that
Marciano was really the last of the heavyweight champions who was regarded
as the King of Sports.

By the end of the 1950s boxing was no longer the #2 sport behind baseball.
Football and basketball had moved ahead of it, and many other sports were
now available to watch on TV. The heavyweight champions to follow Marciano
were famous or ignored mostly because of their personalities, or lack of
same, and not just because they were heavyweight champions. Ali, great
fighter though he was, was famous because of his personality more than
because he held or didn't hold the title. Ali and Dempsey were much alike in
that they were interesting to people whether they were fighting or not,
whereas people mostly lost track of Louis and Marciano once they were no
longer fighting.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Ruddel » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:42:45


Quote:


>> I tried that site and it's down?  Not down as get down, but as in
>> it's down?  How come it's not up?

>> --
>> Cheers

>> Dennis

> I just clicked and it opened. Sometimes Yahoo will temporarily shut a
> site  down for too much traffic.

Yeah, ok it's working now...but the poll results don't show?   Talk
about having a bad day eh...

--
Cheers

Dennis

Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Nicholas » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:52:41


Quote:
> I envy you getting to meet him in person. I remember you've told me about
> his visit to your gym before and it seems to fit in with what others have
> said about him. Larry Merchant once said, "Marciano wasn't small when you
> met him in person."

> I just read "The Rock of His Times" and recommend it to anyone interested
> in Marciano. It puts into perspective the era in which he fought and how
> it helped to mold the concept of Marciano as champion. It also points out
> that Marciano was really the last of the heavyweight champions who was
> regarded as the King of Sports.

> By the end of the 1950s boxing was no longer the #2 sport behind baseball.
> Football and basketball had moved ahead of it, and many other sports were
> now available to watch on TV. The heavyweight champions to follow Marciano
> were famous or ignored mostly because of their personalities, or lack of
> same, and not just because they were heavyweight champions. Ali, great
> fighter though he was, was famous because of his personality more than
> because he held or didn't hold the title. Ali and Dempsey were much alike
> in that they were interesting to people whether they were fighting or not,
> whereas people mostly lost track of Louis and Marciano once they were no
> longer fighting.

> Bobby Bearden

Just ordered the book thanks for the tip. During my search for it I stumbled
onto something. I didn't know Ezzard Charles killed Sam Baroudi in '48. Some
people say it pretty much changed him as a fighter for the worse.

-Nick

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:17:06


Quote:


>>> I tried that site and it's down?  Not down as get down, but as in
>>> it's down?  How come it's not up?

>>> --
>>> Cheers

>>> Dennis

>> I just clicked and it opened. Sometimes Yahoo will temporarily shut a
>> site  down for too much traffic.

> Yeah, ok it's working now...but the poll results don't show?   Talk
> about having a bad day eh...

> --
> Cheers

> Dennis

> Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply

The poll is apparently no longer supported by the site that offered it.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

absurde: MARCIANO-WALCOTT 2

Post by Bobby Bearde » Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:46:55


Quote:



>> I envy you getting to meet him in person. I remember you've told me about
>> his visit to your gym before and it seems to fit in with what others have
>> said about him. Larry Merchant once said, "Marciano wasn't small when you
>> met him in person."

>> I just read "The Rock of His Times" and recommend it to anyone interested
>> in Marciano. It puts into perspective the era in which he fought and how
>> it helped to mold the concept of Marciano as champion. It also points out
>> that Marciano was really the last of the heavyweight champions who was
>> regarded as the King of Sports.

>> By the end of the 1950s boxing was no longer the #2 sport behind
>> baseball. Football and basketball had moved ahead of it, and many other
>> sports were now available to watch on TV. The heavyweight champions to
>> follow Marciano were famous or ignored mostly because of their
>> personalities, or lack of same, and not just because they were
>> heavyweight champions. Ali, great fighter though he was, was famous
>> because of his personality more than because he held or didn't hold the
>> title. Ali and Dempsey were much alike in that they were interesting to
>> people whether they were fighting or not, whereas people mostly lost
>> track of Louis and Marciano once they were no longer fighting.

>> Bobby Bearden

> Just ordered the book thanks for the tip. During my search for it I
> stumbled onto something. I didn't know Ezzard Charles killed Sam Baroudi
> in '48. Some people say it pretty much changed him as a fighter for the
> worse.

> -Nick

It did. Magazines of the time constantly refer to the death of Baroudi
affecting Charles greatly. He obviously wasn't the same fighter thereafter
and was critized for backing off when he had an opponent hurt or for going
for a decision even when it was apparent he could finish off the other guy.

The fans of the time didn't appreciate the brilliance of Ezzard Charles.
They wanted to see brawls and knockouts, not a heavyweight champion who
could win fights without pushing for a KO. And he made the mistake of
beating Louis while there were still plenty who hadn't accepted that Louis's
era was ending. When Marciano beat Louis almost everyone had already
accepted that Joe was gone.

All those who were present at the first Marciano/Charles fight said it was
the best fight of Ezzard's career, and referred to it as bringing out the
"Charles of old". He recieved more praise than Marciano did for the fight,
and more praise than he'd ever been given during his career. For the first
10 rounds the fight could have gone either way, but thereafter he took a
hellish beating. It was the worst damage Ezzard ever took in a fight and he
won the fans over by refusing to go down.

Bobby Bearden